Is it possible to convert the disappointment of patriots in support of supporters of federalization of Ukraine

From the editorial office

From the hero to the outcast: the path of Nadezhda Savchenko.

From the hero to the outcast. As Nadezhda Savchenko, over a year, lost her popularity in Ukraine. Part One
"Magic master line", or negotiator without authority. So far, Nadezhda Savchenko managed to get two Ukrainian women out of captivity. Are there any chances to develop this success? Part two

The exchange of hostages is registered in the Minsk agreements, but it is not the first point in them. The fate of prisoners of the military is part of a more common problem of Ukraine: the future of Donbass. Therefore, in the third part of the publication of the Novaya Gazeta specialist Ilya Azar, who talks about the transformation of the hero of the Ukrainian patriots Nadezhda Savchenko into a “toxic asset”, we are talking about an unexpected version of the development of her political career. Some experts talk about its possible alliance with forces advocating the federalization of the country and the implementation of the political part of the Minsk agreements. And they even see in it a figure that can lead the “separatist” territories after their return to Kyiv.

According to the Ukrainian publicist Kazarin, “the watershed is very simple: either we say that everything that was happening is only a civil war, and then Donetsk and Lugansk are opposed to Kyiv, or we say that, taking into account the Crimea, Street stories, the beard,“ Boeing ”we observe the invasion of the local, and then Moscow is the opponent of Kyiv”.

Savchenko’s position is also contrary to the mainstream of Ukrainian politics. She is indignant at Kazarin, “over and over again in a public agenda, it pushes the topic that our enemy is not so much Moscow as our unwillingness to see people on the other side of the front, with whom we must agree to end the war, because they are quite agreement -based guys.”

“When your children, brothers, sisters, children are killed, when you see how the kid is buried in the next house, this is not forgotten, blood cannot be forgiven. Savchenko today stands on the side of those who kill Ukrainians, ”the Verkhovna Rada deputy Borislav Bereza concludes. The meeting with Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky in Minsk and a trip to Makeevka, where Nadezhda visited Ukrainian prisoners of war, he considers a betrayal.

Vera Savchenko recalls that the Minister of Energy of Ukraine Nasalik met in Donetsk with one of the leaders of the "DPR". “This is not a betrayal. And the fact that Savchenko, just a deputy, went to prison and found missing guys is a betrayal?! ” - Vera is indignant.

She convinces me that hope "never called for negotiations with terrorists." According to her, in the Donbass there are invaders and collaborators who help the enemy win the territory of their state.

Savchenko and the lawyer Ilya Novikov, who defended her in Russia in Russia, without saying a word, reasonably notice that if you want to achieve something, then you should not start in the negotiations with the fact that the interlocutor is a terrorist. “At the same time, her conversation with Zakharchenko was very difficult - he then said that Nadia is a very dangerous opponent,” Vera comments.

-The idea of ​​negotiations with Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky still seems correct to you? - I ask Nadezhda Savchenko.

- Yes, she is right. She gave the result if you did not notice. We found people who were considered buried, missing. Such people are still in Ukraine - both in free territory in Kyiv, and on its occupied territory. Human life is the most valuable thing in the world. The entire three -year period of the war with Russia proves that this theory was correct - many commanders after the battle talked with the separatists, terrorists, collaborators, no matter how they call them, and agreed on exchanges. It was right, and so it was correctly historically in any war. It cannot be wrong that is historically proven by an effective and working method. Now it is considered wrong, because this idea is imposed through people through the media those who benefit it.

About the same way, Savchenko, it seemed, behaved on the Maidan - recently they began to blame her that she helped Berkut there. However, Nadezhda says that even then she tried to influence both sides of the conflict in order to protect Ukrainians from bloodshed.

The course of Ukraine against Donbass is understandable: in March, Ukraine introduced the full transport blockade of the DPR and LPR, has not paid their pensions to residents for a long time. “When Savchenko said about the people of Donbass, I called her and said that I would stop communicating with her. She said she was mistaken. There is no people of Donbass. Yes, I have now lost my house for some time, like millions of people, but I do not want to lose the country. The things that she does are unacceptable to me in the long run, because I can lose my country, ”says Alexey Ryabchin, deputy of the Verkhovna Rada from the Fatherland.

According to Bereza, in the Donbass, "there are no people, but there are either opponents-doctors or Ukrainians under the occupation." “The concept of“ people ”erodes meaning. There are no negotiations there with anyone, because <the authorities of the “DPR” and “LPR”> are criminals, they must be judged. The story with Chechnya shows that either you return the territory under your control, or sign a shameful Khasavyurt world, pay tribute to the Chechnya, and she lives according to its rules, in lawlessness. The Khasavyurt world does not suit Ukraine. We will not return the Donbass on Russian conditions. So that we restore it for our grandmothers - this will not. We will return the Donbass on our conditions, ”says Bereza.

Vera Savchenko does not agree with this approach: “In order for the <inhabitants of the“ DPR ”and“ LPR ”> to turn away from Moscow themselves, they need to show that they are not abandoned, to conduct active counter -propaganda. It should be a state policy. ”

For the active and patriotic part of Ukrainian society (Kazarin believes that it makes up 15% and calls it “Ukrainian Maidan”) after six waves of mobilization “there are red lines in the public consciousness, the intersection of which makes you in the eyes of so many people a political marginal”, and negotiations with the separatists are behind the red line.

“While blood is pouring, while coffins go to Ukraine, while our soldiers and civilians die, it is impossible to talk about reintegration and some negotiations. Russia now does not need to take steps towards, therefore we will not do any things that go for reconciliation, ”explains the deputy of the“ Fatherland ”Ryabchin.

Rejects the idea of ​​negotiations with representatives of the “DPR” and “LPR” and a war veteran, defender of the Donetsk airport “Cyborg” Zhora Turchak: “I am not an expert, I am a military man, shell -shocked, but my subjective opinion is this: there are terrorists who need to be killed so that they are not there.”

- It didn’t work out to kill.

“We are not ready yet, and after a year two or three we will kill them all.”

Some believe that Savchenko developed Stockholm syndrome, that it is easier for her to talk with Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky, because they are fighting. “It is clear that Plotnitsky managed to enrich himself in this war, but even at the same time he and Savchenko on one side of the social barrier, and Poroshenko on the other. In this sense, it is much easier for them to find a common language with Plotnitsky than with Poroshenko, ”Novikov suggests.

Savchenko fights off: “It is not easy to communicate with a person whom you were ready to kill yesterday and, in principle, is ready to kill tomorrow. This is not easy, but still people come to this, just now we need to sit down at the negotiating table. Who are these people, who talks about Stockholm syndrome? Did they pass something similar in this life on my path? Or on the path of McCain, who was in captivity in a pit in Vietnam? Or did they read smart books, and it seems to them? "

Russian spy

Now the same people who called Savchenko a hero and demanded to let her go home began to call her a traitor to Ukraine working for Moscow. The Verkhovna Rada deputy from the Radical Party of Oleg Lyashko Andrei Lazova completely stated that the trial of Savchenko was “a performance that was directed in Moscow”, and in Russia, judging by the healthy color of the skin, she lived in a sanatorium or in a conspiracy apartment of the FSB. Lyashko himself demanded that Savchenko deprive the deputy mandate and the title of Hero of Ukraine.

Lazovaya statements are extreme, but many in Ukraine are sure that Putin pardoned Savchenko and let go of his homeland for a reason. “We do not know what was happening in prison, who was washed with her brains and how, whether it was zombie, where the image of the Savior of Ukraine was formed for her. Then it is quite possible that she is a Trojan horse who does not even suspect her essence, ”Birch believes.

He calls himself an oppositionist, says that he criticizes the authorities, but Savchenko’s ideas can, in his opinion, lead to the disappearance of Ukraine. “She is trying to undermine confidence in power. The image of Savchenko was created not in order to vote for it, but in order to dump this power as soon as possible, and destabilization on the hand only to the Kremlin, ”says Bereza.

Indeed, in January, Savchenko called Poroshenko an enemy of the people, and she was immediately accused of cracking Ukraine at the moment when she had to unite. “Poroshenko is an enemy of the Ukrainian people number two, Putin is number one. It’s just true, and almost every citizen of the country says, ”Savchenko convinces me, but adds that the new Maidan does not support:“ You can’t only go in a revolutionary way, since this is destruction, but only evolutionary will not work, since politicians have no desire. We need to combine evolution and revolution, and we will succeed. ”

The birch is sure that in Russia “very strong technologists”, which “clearly calculated the psychotype of Savchenko and the approximate map of its actions.” “Savchenko was introduced into Ukraine for destabilization, but they played too early. If she entered gradually, a quiet sapa, then there would be a completely different effect, ”says the birch.

Indirect evidence of Savchenko’s connection with the Kremlin deputy considers her trips to the east: “The arrival of Borza Borislav birch to Moscow would end with the fact that Borislav Birch would be seriously and for a long time. When I tried to come to Donetsk to pull out our paratroopers in 2015, they told me: “You can come, but you will step forward.” Her also authorized the Kremlin, otherwise it is, as in ISIS ( a terrorist organization banned in Russia - ed. ) To go to a Christian without agreements and guarantees, ”the deputy adds.

Of course, not everyone is considered a spy of the Kremlin Savchenko. Novikov is sure that she was “released because they pressed it, because it turned out to be killed in one pile of Obama, Merkel, and the pope”. “For Putin Savchenko, the Toxic Asset became, and it came to the point that it was easier to get rid of it, showing that they took their guys,” Ryabchin agrees with him.

“They released me forced to rely on anything, since I am an unpredictable element in life and politics, and indeed the human fate is mysterious. It’s nonsense that I was specially prepared in Russia for some systematic actions is not even fantasy, these are evil spelled intentions of people. I am a living person and make decisions on my own. Perhaps the politicians were very surprising to hear such things from me, because they played in anti -human for so long that they forgot that people are living, smart, adequate and sane and want peace, ”Savchenko explains.

Medvedchuk project

There is another Savchenko’s unprofitable version of her actions: she is a project of the odious Ukrainian politician, the leader of the Ukrainian Choice movement Viktor Medvedchuk. He is hated even more than Putin in Ukraine, because the president of Russia is far away, and Medvedchuk is his kum, and also close.

Sister Savchenko - Vera does not hide that she turned to Medvedchuk for help (he officially coordinates the exchange of prisoners with the “DPR” and “LPR” and the so -called “hostages” with Russia) when she tried to get hope from a Russian prison. “I know that Vera interacted in her attempts to pull Nadia with anyone. Until Peskov, to whom she tried to call, so that she was allowed to go somewhere there. In this sense, I admire the courage of faith, what she did for her sister, through which she went through and mother, ”says Ryabchin.

Kazarin says that Medvedchuk paid for Vera Savchenko trips to Russia. She denies this: "The" Fatherland "paid for lawyers, at first I bought tickets myself, then - also a party, and trips to different countries were at the expense of the inviting side."

[Object htmlelement]

The sister rejects this version: “I can be branded by the agent Medvedchuk, but I am not like that. Nadia herself made him in an interview with Gordon, but I talked with Medvedchuk good a year ago, met with him 4 times, we discussed the issues of the release of Nadi, as well as Karpyuk and Klykh, ”Vera tells me.

Now, Vera claims, she does not contact Medvedchuk. “Then I called the reception room, they promised to transfer Medvedchuk to Medvedchuk, and then a meeting took place, where he said:“ Do not worry, I work on it. ” Now I tried several times to raise the question of Karpyuk and Klykh, but there was no answer. I don’t knock 10 times when I understand that there will be no answer, ”she says.

Nevertheless, according to Kazarin’s observation, the theses of Savchenko by almost 100 percent coincide with the “Ukrainian choice” program - the Medvedchuk movement, which has long advocated for the federalization of Ukraine (in Ukraine, the word “federalization” is now almost equivalent to the “war”, because it was previously required, for example, the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov). “I think Medvedchuk has become confidence and puts some theses in the head of Nadezhda Savchenko. Here the evil intent is not that she receives money, but that it is very easy to charge a stupid, straightforward and energetic person to some idea, the sincere adept of which he becomes, ”says Kazarin.

“Savchenko quite often intersects or travels with those people who are in Medvedchuk’s orbit,” the birch says. The only public figure who can be called an ally of Savchenko - the negotiator and the head of the Ukrainian Center for the Liberation of the prisoners of the “Officer Corps” of Vladimir Ruban - is also called the man of Medvedchuk. He refused to talk to me - apparently, deciding to hide after the story with a ban on entering the DPR.

Even Savchenko, Novikov, does not exclude that Medvedchuk somehow throws her a summons, but is absolutely sure of her sincerity. “Any talk about the fact that she was bought for money for money, this is absolute nonsense. Another thing is that the less flexible the person, the easier it is for them to manipulate, giving information in the right light, ”says Novikov.

[Object htmlelement]

Medvedchuk's ally, Elena Markosyan confirms that Medvedchuk "himself does not work on anyone’s poles, and does not give out any decrees to anyone." “He is always a single wolf, he acts where he considers it necessary, because he considers it right and does only what he can do himself,” explains Markosyan, with whom we meet in her new Townhouse near Kyiv.

- Well, he is not quite alone?

- He is not alone, but what has Savchenko?

- Everyone is talking about their connection.

- You never know. Everyone says that I am a man of Medvedchuk, that I am his right hand. And now? And I am not the right and not the left hand of Medvedchuk. And I don’t care what a biography is, what a person he is, what his income he has. I categorically support his idea in the most active phase and is ready to work for it for free.

- What exactly the idea?

- The idea of ​​democracy, the idea of ​​the institution of referenda. This is what saves Ukraine, sews Ukraine. This is federalization. I held the first all -Ukrainian conference on federalization, you know?

- So Savchenko says about referenda and democracy.

- Everyone is talking about it, but no one does anything. Decentralization is the preservation of management from top to bottom, and federalization is a revival of democracy, it is a transition to a contractual form of relations, ”says Markosyan.

Voters are on the contrary

The sisters of Savchenko convince me that ordinary people, unlike politicians, still support hope. Vera says that on trips around the country I heard the phrases from many: “I hope that hope will not abandon us”, “Hope, only hope is on you.”

“I meet people who say that they support me, as they understand that I am different from other politicians. If they could not do anything in 25 years, then maybe it is necessary that the politicians act like me? ” - says Nadezhda, and when we leave after an interview from the cafe, the waiter suddenly shouts after her: “Glory to Ukraine!”

Hope is sure that the most Ukrainians need peace (Russian Gossmi reports almost 65% with reference to Izvestia.

- In principle, you misunderstand the situation: I was a hero, and remained. A hero for humanity, a hero for a country, its people and a hero for politicians are different things. The media work for politicians, on those on whom they depend, and not on people, so you in vain think that my attitude towards me has changed in Ukraine. It has not changed. They want to make the appearance that it has changed, ”Nadezhda says confidently.

“Most of the negativity in your direction arises after statements about the Donbass,” I tell her.

- You are watching the media, that is, only scandals, because you live in this world.

“But people also live in this world!”

- Not always. You won’t believe it, but many people rarely watch TV, because you have to work hard, do not go on the Internet, because there is no need. All that people need is to return the territories occupied by Russia and the cessation of the war. They need peace, ”Nadezhda answers confidently.

According to the deputy of the birch, "each next statement by Savchenko or the action discredit it even more." «Клуб поклонников Савченко плавно перетекает в клуб ее хейтеров, люди не могут простить ей своего разочарования. Им обидно, что она плюнула на все усилия людей», — говорит депутат.

Действительно, электорат сторонников войны до победного конца Надежда, очевидно, потеряла, но теперь Савченко может претендовать на симпатии тех украинцев, которые больше всего хотят мира. Недаром, по словам сестры, Надежда «начала риторику, как Далай-лама». «К Надежде негласно в Раде подходят депутаты-женщины, например, с «Самопомощи», и ее поддерживают. Одна рассказала, что у матери один сын погиб, и она говорит: «Я не держу зла, я потеряла все, и я прощаю». Другая женщина тоже прощает — ей сын позвонил перед смертью и сказал: «Мама, никто так и не понял, зачем эта война, если не о том, как духовно низко мы пали»», — рассказывает сестра.

Береза полагает, что у Савченко еще есть свой электорат, но гораздо меньший, чем раньше. «Она идеально подходит <Вадиму> Рабиновичу и <Евгению> Мураеву (оба депутаты Рады, куда попали по списку «Оппозиционного блока», но позже из фракции вышли . — Ред. ) по партии «За жизнь», и я думаю, что рано или поздно слияние произойдет», — предполагает Береза. Савченко еще в ноябре участвовала в митинге «За жизнь», а с недавних пор ведет передачу на канале NewsOne, принадлежащем Мураеву. Рабинович на мое предложение поговорить про Савченко не ответил, а Мураев сказал, что считает Надежду другом, и предложил поговорить подробнее позже, но на связь больше не вышел.

«Киборг» Турчак даже думал, что это власти делают Савченко «пророссийский авторитет», чтобы позже «взять» электорат Луганской и Донецкой областей. «Когда отожмем Луганск и Донецк, кто-то же там должен командовать», — размышляет военный.

О важности мира для украинцев активно говорят в окружении Медведчука, что как будто подтверждает теорию о схожести тезисов Савченко и «Украинского выбора». «За 3 года количество людей, которые поддерживали войну, не превышало 35%, и это в основном люди с Западной Украины», — говорит Маркосян. Она, впрочем, полагает, что оставшиеся 65% могут очароваться Савченко, только если она начнет говорить не только про необходимость мира, но и «всю правду про эту гнилую войну».

— Мы боремся против своих соотечественников, которые не приняли этот переворот <в Киеве>. Мы убиваем гражданское население, мы занимаемся мелкими пакостями, объявив блокаду. Все говорят, что мы благородно защищаем родину, но кто у нас сказал, что сожгли живьем людей в Одессе? Когда я спорю по вопросу начала войны, то я всегда прошу мне объяснить один единственный факт! Почему, когда в июне 2014 года все ополчение составляло 500 человек, в Луганск прилетел самолет, обстрелял центр и оставил на ступеньках пять женщин с оторванными ногами? Как это было расценено всем населением региона? Кто-то вступился за русских? Nobody. В июне и июле авиация так же разрушила в Луганске и Донецке в числе первых пяти гражданских объектов краеведческие музеи. Why?

Потому, что там хранились документы, которые говорили о том, кто жил на этой земле. Началась война против русских, и ни одна страна не заступилась за русских, а ведь убивали русских! Надо это сказать! — эмоционально рассказывает Маркосян.

— А как проводить реинтеграцию Донбасса после этого? To repent? I clarify.

— Не надо каяться, надо просто сказать, что была большая ложь! Это все замолчали, и теперь ни в одной стране мира не считают украинцев украинцами, а считают плохими русскими. Теперь у нас есть хорошие русские, где Путин, и плохие русские, которые своих братьев убивают. Вот эту правду о войне не сказал никто. Хочешь быть лидером — говори правду.

— Ну если Савченко такое скажет, ее же посадят.

— Ее посадят, но уже за правду, потому что за правду у нас сажают. И тогда она станет героем для 65%. А выступать здесь миротворцами, не называя все своими именами, — это спектакль, от которого мы немножко подустали.

Едва ли Савченко когда-нибудь будет говорить такую «правду о войне», но по мнению депутата Рябчина, в Украине, действительно, есть большой запрос на мир, и есть люди, которые могут ее поддержать. «Именно на этом играет Савченко. Она делает те вещи, которые делал бы Порошенко на следующий день после конца войны. Но это — как поставить воз впереди кобылы, как построить дом без фундамента», — негодует депутат.

Ambition

Сама Савченко еще в феврале 2017 года говорила о своей готовности стать президентом Украины: «Не хочу, но могу, буду, если надо».

«Она совершенно искренне верит в то, что она мессия, она считает, что ей суждено спасти Украину. Не знаю, кто это ей вложил в голову, и понимает ли она, что она человек, который несет Украине негатив», — говорит Береза.

Надежда, и правда, уверена, что судьба не просто так вынесла ее в политику. «Стратегия страны всегда должна быть направлена исключительно на национальный интерес страны, иначе нет смысла жить и называться страной. Я вижу все военные пути и начинаю понимать политические и человеческие пути, как можно выйти из этого. Это пока не интересует власти, так как им нужны деньги, и они делают их на жизнях людей. Это тоже классика, все мировые войны так происходили», — говорит она.

— Но вы уверены что ваша идея правильная, сомнений нет?

— Людям свойственно сомневаться. Я могу дать шесть вариантов выхода <из войны>, и какой-то из них будет однозначно правильный. Как нормальный здравомыслящий разумный человек, я сомневаюсь, приму ли верное решение, когда придет время его принимать. Но рано или поздно принимать решение придется, а будет ли оно правильным, покажет история, — говорит Савченко, почему-то уверенная, что ей все-таки дадут принимать решения.