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- What did you get in the end?

- I got an interesting experience. I do what is called Surround and Dolby - "Turn and Dolbi." I begin to surround the state bodies from all sides, the courts and say: “Well, you say that I can’t follow this path, then I will go on another, the third, fourth.” When you begin to hammer it from all sides, then in the end you achieve the result. It is difficult, for a long time, it reminds a car stuck in the mud, which is slipping, but in some cases it turns out well.

- Using your analogy with a masking machine - the motor roars, the wheels are spinning, the spray is flying, but there is no movement forward. There are single matters in which it is possible to achieve justice, but in general the system does not change - there is such a point of view. Do you agree with her?

- Globally - I agree. Sometimes I come home and begin to complain to my husband that, finally, I want the police and ships that would really work. I understand that we have been beating for 20 years, but I do not see another way how to continue to work slowly. Although I am very upset. If I had no allergies to alcohol, I would have already drank.

- Heroic people work in the Memorial.

- I do not consider myself a hero. Heroes are those who work in Chechnya or Dagestan. And in Moscow, in principle, well, we have a comfortable office in the city center, all the conditions for work. Real heroes are applicants, because they are forced to live in a state of constant conflict with the authorities, with the police.

- That is, this is a price for a European image: you do not want to solve problems, but at the same time you pay money to save your face?

- It turns out so.

- What are the precedent affairs of the ECHR in the work of the Memorial?

- The main cases are associated with the abduction of people. They always finish me emotionally, because it’s scary to see when a person was abducted. These are things about meat and blood. Moreover, we often know who did this, we know people who can tell about them.

- Together with the international “memorial”, the Russian is conducting cases that concern the restoration of historical justice. For example, the Shahat case [George Shaht since 2017 has tried to access the criminal case of his grandfather Pavel Zabotin, shot in 1933].

- This case is not considered in the ECHR, we lead it because it is interesting to us. We really work on business where access to historical documents is limited. These are just incredible things, because we are talking about the 30s of the last century, when people were shot without trial, since the court cannot be called the court, which in one day approves 500 convictions. At the same time, people did not have lawyers, there was no way to appeal the verdict.

We were denied access to these documents, and we fought for a year and a half so that Georgy Shaht could get acquainted with the materials of his shot grandfather. When they came to the Supreme Court, they already understood that with a probability of 95%, the decision would be in our favor. Even the representative of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the very department that refused to access us, said: "Yes, we incorrectly interpreted the law." But then the question arises, where the three ships who refused Shahet, although we declared the same arguments as in the Supreme Court.

Now, after the decision made, which completely satisfies us, we will carry out explanatory work, including through the media.

- At the lecture, you told the Barkemp participants why the Council of Europe wants Russia to stay in it. But why is this Russia itself?

- I think this is an image moment, the issue of positioning. On the one hand, the Russian authorities say that we do not need it all, Europe has the most huge problems. But, on the other hand, if Russia slams the door and leaves, then it will be a blow to the image of power. For our establishment, this is not necessary. This is a really serious political issue. We saw what negotiations were conducted between the Russian side and the Council of Europe.