The age of change

Alena Vladimirskaya, head of the Anti -Stratism project and Pruffi recruiting agency, about how to change the profession after 50

Sergey Medvedev: Are you familiar with the situations when a 60-year-old bank employee suddenly becomes a joiner? Or when an office worker, having retired, becomes a yoga coach or, for example, a female writer? This happens all the time: people after 50-60 years change the profession, begin a new professional life. We are talking about this trend today with Alena Vladimirskaya, the head of the Anti -Stratism project and the Pruffi recruiting agency.

Alena Vladimirskaya: Career change in the third age occurs for two reasons.

We began to live longer, richer - in general, if not to take a crisis

The first reason: everything took place, everything turned out, there is enough money, there is still enough strength, and that career has already completely taken place. A successful lawyer, a successful banker, a successful engineer come and say: where else can I realize? We began to live longer, richer - in general, if not to take a crisis. And if you compare with our grandparents, we just live much richer, do not collect spikelets. So people want, and there are still all opportunities to realize for another 15 years.

We have quite a lot of such examples. For example, a successful top manager in the bank leaves and opens his museum. The woman who worked in the pension fund makes her dance studio, adult ballet, because she had dreamed of ballet since childhood, but there was no way to make a studio - a poor family, a small city. She cannot dance herself, but she can create a studio, release a magazine.

Sergey Medvedev: How much is it massive?

Alena Vladimirskaya: This is not massive. If you look in the format of the labor resources of Russia, then these are, of course, isolated cases. But if you look at the trend, then it is very growing, exactly because this story about the retirement age of 55 should end, this threshold is outdated (although I understand that this is an extremely unpopular opinion). In fact, in 55 life is just beginning, this is what used to be at 40. And people, in general, not only to just sit in the country and nurse grandchildren.

Sergey Medvedev: Is there still discrimination on the part of the employer?

Alena Vladimirskaya: I will now talk about the second story and go from her to discrimination.

The story about the retirement age of 55 should end, this threshold is outdated

Suppose something did not work out or went wrong, especially taking into account the crisis. For example, to a person, 52-53, and the employer says: goodbye, we found cheaper, faster, with burning eyes ... This is especially true for those professions where technologies actively come: accountants, lawyers, translators.

Of course, high -level experts remain. Automation is not able to replace the translator who transfers negotiations of the first persons - not even the first persons of the country, but the first persons of the companies. But a mass transfer or mass accounting is easy: not a financial director or chief accountant who thinks about flows, how to properly conduct money, optimize the process, and, for example, the harbor between the tax, the account of companies, counterparties. And this is a bad story - sad and complex.

Many such people come to us too, and we work with them. But here is a huge discrimination on the part of employers: men over 55 years old and women over 50 are hired very reluctantly.

Sergey Medvedev: Throughout the market or still in certain areas?

Alena Vladimirskaya: Throughout the market, with the exception of cases when you have a high examination, a good professional reputation in your circle, then there are no problems if even some kind of campaign was closed or you were fired for some reason. They will still take a high -quality accountant, but ordinary, of course, have big problems.

Automation is not able to replace the translator who transfers negotiations of the first persons

In some professions, it is very important to sell not age, but experience, especially in the case of accountants, lawyers and other similar specialties. I have a textbook case: a woman came who could not get a job for a year and a half, worked as an ordinary accountant - she was the only accountant, but in very small companies. The small company closed at the beginning of the crisis, and it cannot find a job. He comes to me, cries, tells. And the phrase flashed: "I went through 17 tax audits without a single violation." I say: "Stop, that's it, tomorrow I will sell you."

I take her announcement, which has been hanging on the work site for a year, and there are a small number of responses, mainly “go to sales”. On top of this resume, I write in capital letters: "I conducted 17 cameral tax audits without a single violation." The next day she opens the mail and does not believe in her eyes: there are already more than a hundred responses from employers, and basically these are the companies that she asked for, but she was not taken. Here a person was replaced. Before that: "Oh, Alena, at least some work!" And here: “Oh, I’m not going there, it’s far away, and there I went, I didn’t like the office, and there the boss is not like that” ... As a result, she chose not even one company, but three new businesses, which she leads remotely from the house with some presence in the office.

The main thing in the history of older people, which for some reason have not become super -experts, is not age to sell. They begin: "I have been working as an accountant for 28 years." Everyone reacts: “Oh, mother” ... the boss younger: “No, I don’t want to - it's like working with my mother.” But “conducted 17 desk tax audits” - this is impressive.

Sergey Medvedev: It is very interesting here that older workers often have a competitive advantage over the young. It happens that these are people with a greater performance, with a greater decision -making skill, with greater emotional stability, more susceptible to criticism. There is no such thing that employers are specifically looking for a more elderly employee?

In some professions, it is very important to sell not age, but experience

Alena Vladimirskaya: I don’t want to offend anyone, but an employee over 50 years old has no advantages over a young employee except experience, and professional experience is extremely important. Everything else is a story about what employers say, and also quite objectively. An older employee is most often almost non -adaptive, not ready to study.

The paradigm of the older generation, even my generation - about the fact that we first studied at the institute, and then worked all our lives; We learn - it can be professional courses, some certification for engineers, and everything else is generally not. The same accountants come to me who still do not know how to work in 1C, work poorly in Excel, work poorly in the computer. And in the current world it does not happen that "of course, I will work, but I need a separate girl on Excel." Goodbye…

Quite often, older people are triggered by such a thing that "I will come now and teach everyone life." This is the reverse side of the experience. You understand that this is a job, and if you have a younger leader (and if you are over 40, in your understanding is younger - this is all younger than 40), then this does not mean that this person wants to study, especially life. Relatively speaking: “Why do you behave like that, why are you talking like that? It is probably wrong to walk in dresses with such a cut, ”and so on.

No, the format of work is different. The older generation is used to the fact that if you need to be taught at work, then the work itself teaches you: the plan is such, the certificate is such ... Now is another time, it is no better and no worse, it is just different, the rules of the game have changed. People who are aggressively adaptive are very in demand, that is, from everything around, pull out knowledge, learn themselves, because the environment is very competitive. As soon as you cannot, in fact, you cannot work.

People who are aggressively adaptive are very in demand, that is, from everything around, pull out knowledge, learn themselves

In addition, the format of relationships within the companies has changed. This story of long gatherings, tea parties, "Girls, who are you friends against?" - For younger generations, she leaves. I am not saying that they are better, just there is a different format of relations.

Sergey Medvedev: Faster, more formal ...

Alena Vladimir: Yes. At the same time, they very clearly share work and personal life, very clearly distinguish between priorities: “We work at work”; Corporate relations are very formal, the value of the work is from the point of view of the receipt of benefits and other things. Bring the company benefit - conditionally, rather, not 20 thousand an increase in salaries, but an option. Therefore, people of the older generation quite often do not fit into this paradigm.

Sergey Medvedev: How much do the older people have the opportunity to retrain? Are companies ready to invest in such people?

Alena Vladimirskaya: If you got a job in the company, then corporate training applies to all employees.

Sergey Medvedev: Do you need to retrain for a new profession for your money?

Alena Vladimir: I have sad statistics. People come to us who initially say: "I have lost my job and would like to learn something new." We are looking for some simple profession: for example, not a programmer, but a layoutor. It can be safely mastered for six months, it depends on your abilities: from three to six months of normal full -fledged work. People begin to study for the first three weeks, and then they say: “Oh, something is difficult” ...

Alena Vladimir

We see aggressive adaptability in people under 30 years of age, and in older ones - only in rare cases. I think this is not an age, but a generational story. These are the values of education, and I am firmly sure that those who are now 22, and at 60 will be different.

Sergey Medvedev: Slop through those who were born already in the 90s?

We see aggressive adaptability in people under 30 years of age, and in older ones - only in rare cases

Alena Vladimir: Yes, that is, where people suddenly realized that a person is a wolf, it is necessary to survive, and this aggressive adaptability arose: I take everything from everywhere, I am looking for any chances. The time was monstrous, but everyone saw how people quickly rose or fell, and so the attitude to the world was formed.

Sergey Medvedev: That is, the brake is the old Soviet, patriarchal communal culture of large groups?

Alena Vladimirskaya: This guaranteed beggar reliability: everyone on a terrible cutlet. I myself found this time: a smelly fish cutlet in the dining room and non -washed buckwheat or pasta, but they are guaranteed to everyone. And if you suddenly get upstairs, you can get very strongly on a hat. And this “do not lean out” is very felt precisely on career guidance. If you have long been in your profession, then there experience overlaps many things, and if you suddenly turned out to be thrown away, then it is very difficult to change it quickly. For example, a crisis, in banks - people come 30, 32, 28 years old, who fell out of banks; They understand that it is difficult to go there again, because the reorganization continues. In three or four months they retrained, realized where, what and how - and go.

Sergey Medvedev: What are the new professions of 50-60-year-olds, in what areas people go?

Alena Vladimirskaya: There are, again, generational things. We approximately know that people after 40-45 years really want, as they say, hated, give knowledge and experience, and many are free. Therefore, people really want to go to different types of mentoring, starting from simple things. The sphere of non -state education, all new educational entities is very popular: all kinds of courses for children or adults - organize, teach, be methodologists, administrators. Corporate universities, trainings ... This is the main story.

Second: everything related to a healthy lifestyle, with the correctness of life - yoga, personal growth trainings.

People after 40-45 years really want to give knowledge and experience, and many - free

Third: people want new technologies. But here the biggest difficulty arises when they are faced with how much it is necessary to teach. A very small percentage of people passes through this.

Sergey Medvedev: But is there any demand for all this?

Alena Vladimirskaya: The demand for this is much less. If you are a good expert, then the whole story rests on a good examination, if you are a good financier, lawyer, salesman, teacher, then there is demand for you, because now there is great demand for trainings. If you are not very good in this, then, of course, there is no demand for you, because this is the same business: people buy some experience and choose the best. As a result, a very strong delta arises between where people want and where they really go.

If people want to work, then the easiest way to go to sales, there is always a vacancy of any level, it all depends on you. The second is all related to call centers, with loyalty programs. Consulting by phone: I want to start a bank card, I don’t have a refrigerator and other things. Thirdly, this is administrative work, because older administrators are usually quite good - for example, senior dispatchers: there are endless taxis services or food delivery.

A large number of people go to the public sector - pension funds, kindergartens - exactly because there is a low salary, and people of a younger age find work better, and older people are very in demand in this niche.

Sergey Medvedev: How many manage to convert their hobbies into a profession that makes at least some profit?

A large number of people go to the public sector - pension funds, kindergartens

Alena Vladimir: Unfortunately, units. There are two problems. First of all, most older people have no hobby - this is also an amazing thing. The difference between our older people and Europeans-if you come to some small European towns, then everyone is doing something there: I do the best birdhouses, and I am some Marcipan. We, apparently, again, again, the complexity of the life of the generation: it was not up to a hobby, it was necessary to survive, therefore, in general, there was nothing to monetize.

And those who have a hobby have another stereotype: it is difficult for the older generation to take money for their work. The only measure of any business is money. This is an indicator of how in demand you are. Until you learn to take money for this, this is really a hobby, not a business. It is very difficult for people to psychologically cross this barrier, they begin to invent that it is legally difficult and so on. In fact, this is not so, now a huge number of cheap or free resources.

Sergey Medvedev: This is easier for the young generation. For example, I do a lot of amateur sports and see how many of my friends with whom we ran amateur starts together, throw their long -standing work (managerial, banking, corrupt) and become just coaches, bring groups.

Alena Vladimirskaya: Endless cycling tracks, marathons are a huge industry that grows just on those who at first participated in them.

Sergey Medvedev: Moreover, there is a huge demand for this. They are unskilled people, and still gain dozens of students, carry groups abroad. It is very interesting how a hobby becomes a profession.

The only measure of any business is money. This is an indicator of how in demand you are

Alena Vladimirskaya: You just need to understand what you are strong in, and then to overcome two things. People are ashamed to tell about themselves, or they do not know how. This is PR, first of all, in social networks through friends, through customers. And the second: people must learn to take money for this. These two stereotypes are quite difficult to overcome. People under 35 overcome this much easier.

Sergey Medvedev: I think for an American at any age is not a problem to tell about himself and take money.

Alena Vladimirskaya: God with him, with an American, people in Russia under 35 years old do not see a barrier at all. Well, let's say, I’m gaining the first group for free in order to get customer reviews, but I immediately consider this as a kind of source of income, because this is my work, my work.

Sergey Medvedev: How do you see the labor market in 10-15 years - will it get old? Apparently, especially as people are less and less at retirement; Obviously, the state will pay less and less money in the form of pensions.

Alena Vladimirskaya: I have no idea that we will pay the state.

Sergey Medvedev: I personally have no hopes for this.

Automation comes to the market and eats ordinary specialties

Alena Vladimirskaya: Automation comes to the market, and it is just not eating experts, but ordinary specialties are ordinary accountants, ordinary lawyers, ordinary managers, ordinary recruiters. For five years, she will calmly eat all this. This is the most terrible thing, because it is an entrance to the profession. Remember, when we graduated from the institute, there were no problems with employment for little money, but in your specialty-relatively speaking, you go out the younger assistant to the journalist and run from morning to night, bring reports for some three pennies. But you enter the profession, you begin to develop. This is what automation will eat.

Further - the entrance to the profession, and you cannot become an expert until you go through it. Knowledge is always at the fingertips, but this is not, because it will eat automation. Робот (не в смысле – железяка) умнее, он не болеет, не просит прибавки к зарплате, не нужен — выключил, нужен — включил. В результате изменится отношение к университетам, знание во многом будет бесплатным, сейчас уже все университеты шарят: ради бога, сиди, смотри, бесконечно учись. Университеты важны именно связями. В результате выделится какое-то количество университетов, куда поступить будет очень сложно, потому что оттуда будут забирать лучших выпускников и вводить их в профессию. Всем остальным трудоустроиться будет очень сложно.

К сожалению, рынок у нас будет автоматизироваться. Профессия библиотекаря тоже будет автоматизироваться, но в нее придут очень нескоро, потому что это маленький рынок, там мало денег. История массовых бухгалтеров, юристов, переводчиков — это история пяти лет. История кассиров уже происходит, история водителей такси произойдет в течение трех лет. Так что рынок у нас будет съедаться не людьми, не возрастом. Когда говорят: демографическая яма и прочее, я отвечаю: прекратите, это просто вопрос алгоритмов и программ.

Сергей Медведев: А из тех, кто все же будет работать, у кого еще не отнимут работу роботы? У меня такое подозрение, что будет подниматься планка, люди все меньше будут сидеть на пенсии, в любом случае - совмещать пенсию с работой.

Ценность экспертного знания будет расти

Алена Владимирская: Безусловно, потому что ценность экспертного знания как раз будет расти. Люди будут меньше хотеть уходить с работы в 55 или в 60 лет, они ведь уходят по большей части от глупой работы, от усталости, а в ближайшее время это будут делать алгоритмы. Люди будут ценить свою работу, потому что будут понимать, что количество рабочих мест очень сужается, и за них нужно держаться, тем более, непонятно, что с пенсиями, поэтому выгнать человека на пенсию будет все сложнее. Медицина тоже меняется. Мы в 50 и наши бабушки и прабабушки в 70 — это две разные истории.

Сергей Медведев: То есть в целом вы видите смещение центра тяжести общества на третий возраст? 30 лет учиться, 30 лет самореализации и 30 лет - третья колея…

Алена Владимирская: Новая карьера.

Сергей Медведев: Возможно, это приведет к утрате пассионарности общества, какого-то драйва в нем.

Алена Владимирская: Почему? Мы смотрим на тех 70-летних, к которым привыкли - к нашим, условно говоря, дедушкам, а 70-летний через 10 лет и 70-летний 40 лет назад — это два разных человека. В фармацевтике сейчас зреет технологическая революция - она принципиально изменится, изменятся лекарства и способы доставки. Поколение, которое идет за нами, и следующее поколение в 70 будут совсем другими.

70-летний через 10 лет и 70-летний 40 лет назад — это два разных человека

Пассионарность тоже не упала сверху, история пассионарности идет от того, как ты реагируешь, что ты знаешь, умеешь. Человеку, которому сейчас 20, открыт весь мир, открыта Европа, он понимает, что может поехать туда, сюда, поработать удаленно, сменить работу. Он другой, и в 70 лет он будет другим.

Сергей Медведев: От себя напомню, что Микеланджело в 61 год создал Сикстинскую капеллу, а архитектор Фрэнк Ллойд Райт в 92 года создал легендарный музей Гуггенхайма в Нью-Йорке, около Центрального парка. Так что всегда есть, к чему идти и к чему стремиться!