Translated material
Do you need a scientific diaspora in Russia?
In May 2017, the Council for Science under the Ministry of Education and Science accepted an application for the use of the potential of the scientific diaspora in the development of priority areas of Russian science [1]. About why the Council turned to this issue, Natalia Demina talked with a member of the Council Alexander Kabanov , head. Laboratory "Chemical Design of Bionamaterials" by Moscow State University, Honored Professor and Co -Director of the Institute of Nanomudicin University of North Carolina (USA).
- Why did the science council turn to this topic?
- We believe that interaction with the scientific diaspora is an important resource for strengthening science and education in Russia. Significant efforts are already being made in this direction, but they are completely lacking at the current stage. This is clearly and briefly said in the statement of the Council [1].
In more detail, you must first decide on the term “diaspora”. This term is used in analytical documents to refer to people who can be citizens of different states, but are immigrants from a particular country or native speakers of a particular language. In this case, we are talking about the Russian scientific diaspora-that is, about Russian-speaking scientists-artists working abroad, many of whom are “products” of the Soviet scientific school. To some extent, Russia, in interaction with its scientific diaspora, follows the logic of a number of foreign countries, in particular China.
The Chinese have long been worried about how scientists of Chinese origin can contribute to the “raising” of their science from the zero, at which it was after the “cultural revolution”, to the current level, the world scientific power, which will probably soon compete with the United States on equal terms. About eight years ago, I happened to read one of the analytical reports on this subject, called “overestimating the“ brain of the brain ”: a variant of the diaspora,” which made a very big impression on me [2]. In this report, the composition of scientists and specialists who left China and working in the leading scientific powers of the world was analyzed in detail, and the potential for the influence of these people on science and technology in China was analyzed. And one of the conclusions seemed to me very interesting and paradoxical.
The fact is that among the huge number of Chinese with higher education working in other countries, one can distinguish a relatively small population of those who have reached, as the report said, the “exceptional” positions of Tenured Professor at the University or the director of research in a large company. If I am not mistaken, at that time only in the United States there were about two thousand. With regard to these people, it was concluded that they were so integrated into foreign life that they are most likely impossible to “physically return” them to China. But it is they who are of the greatest value for Chinese science due to their experience, qualifications, authority and, if you want, independence, which gives them certain freedom to help the science of the Celestial Empire. Moreover, the more they were integrated into foreign life, being permanent residents or citizens of their new countries, the more they could help their “historical homeland”.
And the Chinese government has long been concerned about how to correctly build a system of relations with such people and the whole scientific diaspora. They started with programs like our megagrators, but these are far from all the mechanisms that they successfully used and continue to use. And it seems to me that the main feature of their approach is that they consider all scientists of Chinese origin as part of a single scientific and cultural space, without dividing them into “their own” and “strangers”. And in this they succeeded.
In this regard, it is interesting to compare the experience of India and China. The size of the intellectual diaspora of the Indians is no less than that of the Chinese, or maybe even more. She is also super -circular. In all areas of scientific business and at the Academy, immigrants from India occupy leading and growing positions. At least in the USA. But if you look at the success of India as a scientific power, then it is significantly inferior to China, although economically India is a country with a liberal economy. Perhaps this is due to the fact that China and India interact differently with the diaspora and the diaspora affects Indian life differently, and for us this is a serious and important lesson.
- The success of society depends on how careful it is to its diaspora?
-Speaking specifically about Russia, our scientific diaspora is very large-the number of “exceptional” scientists in terms of the mentioned Chinese report in it, apparently, is measured by thousands. At the same time, the population of Russia is an order of magnitude less than in China. The reason for this, of course, is that our diaspora is largely formed thanks to the Soviet Union, which was a scientific superpower. Over time, the Chinese diaspora will grow due to the growth of the number of scientists of Chinese origin abroad. And Russian - it will be more likely to decrease, since there will be no more powerful feeding. Although our scientific diaspora continues to replenish with young people, its core is already mature people. This diaspora is a temporary phenomenon, but it is very high -quality.
It is safe to say that never in the history of Russia has never been so well-educated, successful and, in general, close-knit diaspora of scientists and technical specialists working outside Russia. These people, fully integrated into a new life, have vast experience in leading scientific powers of the world. At the same time, they not only retained the Russian language and culture, but, for the most part, they have a desire to interact with Russian scientists in one way or another, which can bring great benefits to Russia.
In the 1990s and 2000s, a large part of the key to the intellectual development of the country of generation of scientists left Russia. I am in the center of this generation - I am 55 years old, and our diaspora, mostly people of 40–65 years old. And what happens when such a significant part of the generation leaves the country? We once said about this: "The connection of times is disintegrated." The power of creative people in the continuity between generations. The fact that so many representatives of my generation have left the country to largely this connection of times sophisticated. This is a huge demographic trauma not only for Russian science, but for the entire Russian society.
The key question is that these scientists who have left Russia can give her. And the response to it is voluminous, it is not limited only to the transfer of advanced foreign experience and conducting specific research at the world level. And I often visited Russia in Russia, but when I came here as a megagrannik, I suddenly felt that, in addition to restoring or forming entire areas of science that did not arise or stopped developing, it is very important to restore the communication of all generations of scientists.
There are things about which the leaving scientists of our generations can speak with great benefit with thirty and forty-year-olds and be “on the same wave” with them. Here is the transfer of experience, and the story of how science is organized in different countries, and how to respond to big challenges, and much more. A conversation with fifteen and twenty-year-olds will be completely different. On the other hand, our generation is a connecting with the older generation, which, unfortunately, leaves and which I am immensely grateful for the fact that they raised us.
Some wrote to me on Facebook: “Here, you don’t understand, you have your own world in America, and we have our own world. We are a country that won in the Second World War ... ”But the second world ended for a long time ...
- Moreover, Great Britain and the United States with us won in World War II.
- Yes, that is so. There are a lot of things that other countries also want to adopt from their diaspora. And it will be a monstrous mistake for Russia not to take advantage of this temporary but tremendous advantage! You cannot be so wasteful. When we talk about the diaspora today, someone can say that we need to attract all foreign scientists, regardless of their nationality. Right! But the diaspora has a feature: they are “avatars” of local crops. They know life there, know life here. In this sense, the diaspora is a special cultural phenomenon.
- What was the concentration of the Council on Science, preparing its statement on the diaspora?
- Our statement suggests that, of course, it is good that the programs of megagrators began, after which it became clear to many in the diaspora that in Russia it can be engaged in successful scientific work. A negative stereotype was destroyed, which is very important. But due to the limbs of grants, limited by the framework of the tasks set in grants and other factors, it is not possible to completely reveal the potential of the diaspora in Russia.
And the statement states that it is necessary to create new mechanisms or expand the existing scientists so that scientists can be involved, including for an independent examination, participation in observation and consulting scientific councils, the formation of international ties, preparation of graduate students and postdrods, lecturing and other things important for Russian science and the formation of things.
The statement of the Council for Science is addressed to Russian universities, the Russian Academy of Sciences, and Russian scientific funds. We do not offer specific forms, we talk about what should happen, and specific forms must be developed. Forms of interaction can be different. A systematic approach to the question is needed - you need to think about it, this must be done now.
And yet-and this is very important: we urge the entire Russian scientific community to perceive scientists-second-quality scientists working abroad, as part of a single Russian-speaking scientific and cultural space, regardless of the place of residence, citizenship and political views. As they say, “you and I are the same blood, you and I”, so our lives and concerns should not be strangers and incomprehensible to each other.
“Are you not afraid that your statement will remain an empty declaration?”
- I hope not. I know that there are many people who want and will work so that our sentences and ideas do not remain only on paper. Unfortunately, today the Russian Academy of Sciences does not have a unified policy on how to interact with scientists-state, but I hope that such a policy will appear.
The Ministry of Education has this issue in sight. They continue the program of megagrators, attract representatives of the diaspora to discuss a number of issues of the organization of science and scientific education. But you can’t stand still, you need to expand this cooperation, new system initiatives are needed. In this regard, it is good that the Deputy Minister of Education and Science of the Russian Federation Valentin Pereverzev and Grigory Trubnikov took part in the discussion of the issue of the diaspora, and it seems to me that the position of the Council met their understanding.
It is also clear that to the opinion of scientists-subordinants who are now working in Russia are listening. An example is the meeting of ten megagratniki with Vladimir Putin in September last year [3], which appeared as a presidential program for the support of scientists, implemented through the Russian Scientific Fund. I think that then the key to the success of our conversation with the president was that we did not ask for anything “for ourselves”, but focused on what was important for Russian scientists, primarily young Russian scientists. Another example of the real interaction of second-quality scientists with Russian scientists are interdisciplinary scientific centers created with the participation of the Russian-speaking Academic Scientific Association-RASA.
- I know that such a center is in Tomsk. Is there anywhere else?
-In Tomsk, Kazan and St. Petersburg. And I would like that the number of such centers and the number of foreign scientists participating in scientific and educational activities in Russia grew. Generally speaking, there are already many such scientists. In addition to mega-garnets, there are employees of Skoltha. The attraction of leading foreign scientists is provided for in various Grant RNF mechanisms. International competitions of the RFFI are held together with funds of other countries. Various programs of international cooperation and exchange are valid. And, of course, many scientists come to Russian institutions to give lectures individually.
Interestingly, in Russia there is no single center, an organization representing foreign scientists working in Russia. At the same time, these scientists periodically have many similar issues, sometimes problems with which they have nowhere to contact a regular, rather than accidental basis. When the first megagrators competition was held, the first 40 megagranniki had many questions. We solved many issues among ourselves, united and, when we had to, turned to the ministry, went to the minister or other officials. Since then, there have been 200 megagrandniks. Some have finished their work in Russia. Some returned to Russia for good. As I said, other scientists appeared. There are more questions, they have become more diverse.
“Do you want some new department to appear in the Ministry of Education and Science?”
- I don’t know, this must be discussed in detail. I just want to say that the existing mechanisms of interaction are not enough, and in the statement of the Council we raise the question of what these mechanisms need to be created. This is a statement sent to Russian organizations.
- Maybe the Council on Science in the future makes sense to propose mechanisms for working with the diaspora?
- I think this is not a matter of council in science. The Council is an advisory body, it can only recommend some things, and the executive body should develop the mechanism. Perhaps such an organ needs to be created. By the way, after the megagranniki met with Vladimir Putin and discussed with him those proposals that later received the implementation in the presidential program, we turned to the Science Council in order to take into account the opinion of scientists constantly working in Russia. With the participation of members of the Council on Science and Megagrantnikov, a special working group was created on this issue.
I would also like to say that when compatriots who come to Russia and feel absolutely comfortable among relatives and friends, try to offer something or do something in the scientific field here, they often feel a completely different attitude. Many told me that "they do not want us here." Somehow, the Russian scientific community projects that compatriots are not needed here. Of course, this attitude is changing over the years. There was a program of megagrators, which at first, many categorically did not want to, but now they had already reconciled with her when they saw that there was benefit from her.
- The problem is that those who work at the world level in Russia, who for one reason or another did not leave or were not going to leave, receive insufficient funding. Recently, when they declared a new wave of megagrators, one good physicist, member of the Academy of Sciences, said: “It would be better if they supported existing scientific groups.” Underfinance is a real problem.
- Yes, this is a problem, but I can only say why I think that the program of megagrators is successful, and how it needs to be developed further. Not to mention the fact that today many grants of the Russian Scientific Fund are not inferior in size to megagrators. And by the way, this fund itself and such its large grants appeared to some extent thanks to the success of the megagrators program. They were created by the same people.
It is clear that there are different opinions, what you can spend money on. But the big problem is, in Russia, such scientists are not fully in demand and such forms of activity are not developed that do not require much money. International examination, observation councils of organizations of all levels, menthism, joint guide to graduate students, work in editorials, reviewing dissertations, etc. - possibilities for interaction mass.
But these opportunities are not realized as they should. The most successful countries, primarily the United States, are precisely in fact that they are ready to adopt, absorb any useful experience as a sponge. It seems to me that it is cultural here. Partly - the unwillingness to let the “strangers” into their affairs, partly - self -doubt. Sometimes - thoughts like "will come, take away our young people."
Some representatives of the Russian scientific “establishment” told me that it seems to them that scientists from the diaspora “look down on them”, that they are “set” and. etc. This is absolutely not so! I do not know any of the self -respecting Diaspora members who look down at their colleagues in Russia. So there are problems of interaction on both sides. But there is no time to build up. By its appeal, the Council, in essence, calls on to quickly eliminate such unnecessary and artificial barriers between Russian -speaking scientists around the world.
- Despite the difficult political situation in which Russia now ended up?
- Well, now you can do with a political situation? As my father said, Academician Viktor Kabanov, whose memory I really value: "You need to take out the brackets that you cannot influence." Что интересно, несмотря ни на какую ситуацию, у многих представителей диаспоры появляется и растет понимание, что можно и нужно действовать сейчас в России. Если раньше, лет пять — десять назад, такая идея мало кем рассматривалась, то сейчас об этом гораздо больше говорят. Это связано с тем, что действительно за границей у людей наряду со многими ново-приобретениями остаются незаполненными какие-то культурные валентности, так что их тянет к своей культуре. И еще у многих есть ощущение важности передачи своего навыка молодежи там, где они родились. Это никакая не знаменитая «российская ностальгия». Порой говорят, что «если он едет в Россию, то это потому, что хочет на России заработать». Да чушь собачья! Для кого-то, может быть, это и правда, но в отношении людей, которые успешны и полностью себя реализовали, — нет. Есть чувство служения, служения «не маммоне, а Богу».
— Борис Штерн так описал итоги первого конкурса мегагрантов: «Дурные деньги достались достойным».
— Ну, дай бог. Главное, что достойным. Но, как я уже сказал, эти деньги уже перестают быть «дурными».
— Ведь для Вас это не «дурные деньги», правда?
— Конечно, нет, с точки зрения количества денег это разумные были деньги. Мы купили много оборудования. Главное, чтобы созданная лаборатория осталась функциональной. Чтобы фокус был на воспитании молодых. Поэтому, как когда-то было сказано, очень важно, чтобы «деньги не ушли, как вода в песок».
А что касается «достойных», то для меня лично было потрясающе важно оказаться в одной комнате с первыми 39 мегагрантниками. Случилось это в мае 2011 года во время нашей встречи с Дмитрием Медведевым [4], и я подумал тогда, что встретиться с такими замечательными учеными из разных стран не меньшая честь, чем впервые встретиться с президентом России. И я до сих пор так думаю.
— Интересно, что Вы лично прекрасно «встроены» в Америку, спокойно можете жить там, не возвращаясь сюда, но Вы всё равно ведете «дипломатическую работу», пытаясь находить слова, чтобы наша власть услышала мнение диаспоры.
— Если вы начинаете с кем-то говорить, то главная задача — не дать диалогу прерваться, поэтому нужно фокусироваться на вещах, которые вас объединяют, а не разъединяют. В общем, несмотря на события, которые произошли в России и мире, несмотря на еще большее дробление российского интеллектуального общества в последние годы, идея «в России можно и нужно заниматься наукой» среди представителей научной диаспоры не исчезла. И мы должны создать механизмы ее реализации.
В конечном счете, в идеале нам всем хотелось бы, чтобы наши граждане жили в добром здравии, богато, счастливо и мирно. А для этого необходимо, чтобы российские ученые создавали интеллектуальный капитал и новые технологии, которые двигали бы страну вперед, к этой цели.
Alexander Kabanov
Talked by Natalia Demina
1. http://sovet-po-nauke.ru/info/17052017-declaration_diaspora
2. http://sts.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/1