"They do not need living witnesses"

The international scandal forced the Chechen authorities to stop mass raids, torture and murder of gays, but Igor Kochetkov believes a member of the Russian LGBT network council that it is too early to relax: according to his information, gay detention continues, and the Chechen police are trying to return those who managed to escape to the republic.

On Monday, Rossiyskaya LGBT network, together with a special correspondent of Novaya Gazeta, Elena Milashina, published a report on the situation with the persecution of LGBT people in Chechnya . As Radio Liberty has already written, the persecution of homosexuals in the North Caucasus began for a long time, but before the main goal of the criminals was personal enrichment - they caused victims for fake meetings, sometimes beaten, shooting this on the video, and demanded a rally, threatening to send out compromising materials to relatives of the victims. It follows from the LGBTS report that the amount of ransom varied from 20 thousand to 1 million rubles.

In December 2016, mass raids on homo- and bisexual men began, which have not ended to this day. The information that the detentions are ongoing was confirmed by Radio Freedom and gays who fled from Chechnya. According to them, now the Chechen security officials act more carefully, avoid the clothes and keep homo and bisexual men not in “secret prisons”, but in ordinary pre-trial detention centers, under the threat of flashing, forcing the detainees to sign conference on criminal articles- mainly about the illegal acquisition and wearing of weapons, as well as drug storage.

At the same time, according to the sources of Radio Liberty, the police usually violate this word and still tell the relatives of the victims about their orientation. The interlocutors of Radio Liberty speak of dozens of new detentions. Our source in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Chechnya did not confirm this information, saying that the Chechen authorities are unlikely to continue the campaign against LGBT people after the broken international scandal.

Member of the Council of LGBTS Igor Kochetkov tells Radio Liberty that although the massive wave was asleep, the persecution of gays and their relatives in Chechnya does not stop.

Igor Kochetkov, member of the Council of the Russian LGBT Network

-What is happening with LGBT loves in Chechnya now?

-The information that we have is very fragmentary, it is not enough to make some voluminous picture. We know for sure that now the Chechen police are looking for those who have left, at least those we took out, and are trying to put pressure on them through relatives so that they return to Chechnya. We had cases when relatives came to Moscow and searched for them, tried to take them away, but fortunately, until anyone was taken away. We are reporting that the detentions are ongoing, but so far we can rely only on the words of these people, we hope that soon we can talk with them in person and then we will learn more.

- Why are they doing it? Why look for those who have already left? Kadyrov said in his interview that let Canada take everyone, we do not need them.

- This is a demagogy. In fact, they do not need living witnesses, and therefore they need to be returned, from their point of view, so that they God forbid they do not speak and do not continue to speak.

-What happens to the pre-investigation verification of the Investigative Committee, is there any hope that it will bring any results?

If you are not given answers, then they do not want to give them.

- And we do not know what is happening to her. Both we and the New Gazeta sent written statements to the Investigative Committee, and the last answer that we received was, if I am not mistaken, in May, when we were informed that a pre-investigation check was being conducted-without any specificity. Since then, we have not received any answers. All conceivable terms have already passed by law, we do not know - they extended this check, completed?

-According to your feelings, it is worth expecting something from this audit and from the actions of Russian law enforcement agencies?

- Sensations are a subjective thing. I just see what is happening, I see that the procedural terms established by law have already been violated and there are no answers. If you are not given answers, then they do not want to give them. To date, based on the facts that we have, I begin from the fact that they do not want to conduct an investigation.

- According to my information from communication with some victims, the persecution is now held according to a new scheme: a criminal- weapons and drugs are hung on homo and bisexual men. Do you have information about this?

- Yes, we also have such information, we know that they are trying to initiate affairs on various grounds. I know about weapons and about some business crimes on economic articles.

- Probably, it’s better to sit in a pre -trial detention center and then sit down for a criminal offense than sitting in a secret prison, so that your relatives later killed you. What could happen to people who were detained now?

As soon as the person was detained, anything can happen to him

- Those who were now detained, we, of course, have no contacts with them. We can only hope that we will get some kind of information-some names. Maybe then these people can be sought. It is clear that there is no choice here - to sit in a pre -trial detention center and go to jail or be killed, because when a person with us, especially in Chechnya, falls into the hands of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, we do not know what happens next to him. He is outside of some information field, he is outside the protection of the law, because laws do not work in Chechnya. As soon as the person was detained, anything can happen to him.

- According to the numbers published in the report, for four months 130 residents of Chechnya contacted you, 63 of them left outside the republic. How many people went abroad?

- To date, about 40 people have gone abroad.

-In general, the flow of appeals has been reduced or do you continue to write?

-Now we continue to receive about three to five appeals per week.

- Are these people who are persecuted, or those who are afraid and want to leave?

- Different situations. Someone is afraid, but there are those who are persecuted, who are looking for, who the police are interested in.

- The problem remained within the borders of Chechnya or are there appeals from other republics of the North Caucasus?

- We began to receive more appeals from other republics of the North Caucasus - these are Dagestan, Ingushetia, [North] Ossetia. But this does not mean that these problems have arisen now. Our help has become more accessible, people in the North Caucasus learned more about us. Mainly from other republics are appealed by the fact of blackmail. That is, a classic story, when they arrange dates, they shoot something on video, then blackmail it.

Deprive the opportunity to communicate with the outside world, select all means of communication, are going to forcibly marry, they can even kill them

In addition, there is still a separate story with Chechnya, this is the story of girls [lesbians]. We know that they were not delayed and the way men were not persecuted, but nevertheless, the girls began to contact us more often. There, the danger comes from parents, from relatives who locked them, deprive the opportunity to communicate with the outside world, select all means of communication, are going to forcibly marry, they can even kill them.

- How many are there?

- There are much fewer girls. This is still within a dozen.

- How do Western countries react to the situation in the sense of the help of Chechen gays and the provision of asylum? In April, there was information that France, for example, refused to give them visas. What happens to other European countries? With the USA? With Canada?

-If we compare the situation with what we had in April-May, she moved to the positive direction: they give out visas, we export people. France accepts people. Those issues were of some kind of technical nature, and they are resolved.

- Who are these people? These 63 people?

Both businessmen and people who worked in the field of service, and in the public service

- Very different. From 18 to 45 years old, if we take by age. Naturally, we are talking about men. Among these 63 people there are about 10 family members: sometimes they leave with families, when families are ready to support them and are afraid of their safety, and we are ready to help families. These are very different people with very different activities, it cannot be said that there is some prevailing kind of activity. There are businessmen and people who worked in the service sector, and in the public service.

- You said that the Chechen authorities are trying to look for fugitives in Central Russia. Some of my interlocutors who have already gone abroad are afraid that they can be reached there. How justified are these fears?

- There were cases, even before this story with gays, when people who fled on other grounds found and killed. They found them, in those cases that I know in European countries. We understand that there are countries where there is a very active, large Chechen diaspora - Germany, France, and theoretically, such an opportunity exists. And therefore, even being outside Russia, people must observe precautions.

- The journalists of Novaya Gazeta after the publication of the material on gay persecution in Chechnya began to receive threats - both public and unknown people - an envelope with white powder came to the editor by mail. Were there such incidents with LGBT networks?

-No , there were no direct threats to the Russian LGBT network or individual employees. There were any insulting messages on social networks to my address and other employees, but it always is.

The action in support of the victims of the persecution of LGBT in Chechnya, Paris, the Russian Embassy, June 23

"Silent is dangerous"

-At some point, information appeared that the detentions stopped, the Chechen authorities were backward, then they began a pre-investigation check. The public spoke about the success of the work of journalists, human rights activists that we were able to stop this stream. But now we say that the detentions are ongoing, they are crushing relatives, the pre -investigation check has not led to anything. Is it possible to say that everyone began to rejoice early and nothing really has changed, or still there are positive results besides the fact that you are saving real people?

- Well, this is also a lot. It is important that we managed to save dozens of people and they are in relative safety. In addition, it is very important that thanks to journalists, human rights activists, in particular, this story went into the public space and the topic of the LGBT-Luda position in the North Caucasus began to be publicly discussed both in Russia and abroad. In my experience, even colleagues of human rights activists working in the North Caucasus constantly told us that in no case should this topic, that it is dangerous, that we need to be silent about this. But now the situation shows that it is just dangerous.

No Russian organization has yet offered financial assistance to us

At least, we have reason to think that such a massive and unlimited pressure with massive torture and killings will no longer be, it is impossible, I hope this. We receive information about certain cases of detention now, but this is not what was in February-March. But it is natural that more questions have been raised here than given answers. It is clear that the silence about the situation, its silence, including from the human rights community, does not solve the problem, but only exacerbates it. How to solve it? This is a question. There are generally a lot of questions - for example, what to do to human rights activists in the North Caucasus, how to behave themselves? What to do to the international community when the Russian authorities do not want to institute criminal prosecution and it turns out that both the authorities in Chechnya and the authorities in any other part of Russia can do anything with their citizens. Even if they commit crimes against humanity. Russia did not ratify the Roman statute of the International Criminal Court, so if Russia does not want to, international criminal prosecution is impossible. Here is a question in general for an international community: what to do? An important result is that such questions are posed, they need to be raised.

-The content of shelters, tickets, the residence of these people in Moscow, St. Petersburg and other cities, for this, you need some kind of finances. Where do you get them, who helps you?

-There are two main sources of money for these purposes-firstly, this is the help of our partners, various kinds of organizations. Organizations, of course, foreign. No Russian organization has yet offered financial assistance to us. The second is private donations. Here, both people from abroad and Russians are sacrificed.

- Can you name the numbers?

- Today, in the form of private donations for these purposes, about 60 thousand euros have been received. From organizations about 100 thousand euros.

- Is this money?

- So far, enough.

- How can the international community help today?

-Firstly , it is necessary that the international community take some steps on an alternative investigation of this story. Both foreign states and the public have all the possibilities for this, because those Chechens who have suffered, they testify to migration authorities. They tell you why they run. That is, there are some facts, the international community has evidence. Specific states have them. And probably, this is a matter of politicians to come up with what mechanisms can be used.

“But so far you don’t see any impulses of such an investigation?”

- For example, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe at the end of April adopted a good resolution, where she called a spade a spade, called the state organized in Chechnya organized by the state. In June, a decision was made on a report that the Assembly should make on this story. The speaker has not yet been appointed, but if a specialist is appointed, at least it will be a person who can collect information, which is also good, although this report will not have any binding legal consequences.

- As in your opinion, the situation will develop further?

- Don't know. No one at all expected that such a situation could arise, it was unpredictable. Therefore, it is impossible to predict how it will develop. I can say how we would like it to develop, what the Russian authorities and the international community should do, but whether they will do this, does not depend on us.