Linor Goralik: "I am a second -plan hero"

In the Moscow Fashion and Design Center , a large personal exhibition of Linor Goralik, a poet, writer, artist, journalist, one of the brightest figures of the Russian intellectual space, opens . A photo report from the exhibition can be seen at Colta.ru tomorrow.

Alexander Gavrilov: Your cycle “A number of minor events and phenomena”, connected - how to say this - with the inhabitants of marginalia on the icons, is literally in the second -plan heroes. When I was looking at him, I suddenly remembered that you had a similar literary project in ancient times, in the Russian Journal. You described in detail the heroes of the second plan of Russian literature, which usually do not pay attention, because they are obscured or replaced by too brightly written out heroes of the first plan. What gives you an appeal to these second -plan characters, which the heroes would not be given more noticeable?

Linor Goralik: For me, work with the second plan, with second -plan heroes, is fundamentally important both in texts and in visual experiments. And, by the way, if we are talking about the second -plan heroes, I must say that among the installations at the same exhibition there is only once a work under the name “Five minutes later”: these are old Viennese chairs on which there are small unpainted wooden animals for children's creativity. There are five chairs, and each scene is an attempt to catch reality at one time: five minutes after the completion of common biblical plots. There is, for example, a scene called "The girl stood up." Because now he came, here he said: "Device, get up!" - And so he left, and the girl will continue to live in this village, among these people, and now they stand and look at her. Working with such an optics allows me to talk about the only thing I have interested in me - about the survival of people in everyday life. Cataclysms come and go, everyday life is eternal: it will remain to the cataclysm, during a cataclysm, after a cataclysm. Heroes of the first plan are raised over the everyday life of outstanding events of the cataclysm-even in a ladies' novel, even in the most obscene groaning raspberry about the priests, a plot is built on this. Supporting heroes are forced to actually exist in the same circumstances - but, unlike the first -plan heroes, they are not endowed with attention, tools, in the end, that respect, which gives the drama or comedy to its main characters. They are set in the same circumstances, but are forced to act in much more difficult conditions; In some plan, it looks like a child’s position in society (and a child for a definition of a second -plan person; on the historical watch, three minutes have not passed since we began to see a child with a person in principle, but even now almost always a child exists exactly in the same circumstances as an adult, the minus of an adult, the experience of an adult and the freedom of adult. In this sense, even my interest in children's literature is an interest in Health. second -plan). And therefore, exposing everyday life, survival, joy and tragedy of second -plan heroes seems much more interesting to me than the circumstances of the life of the main characters in advance of the usual paths. There is and, probably, a purely neurotic reason: I am a second -plan hero, a small and not very important creature; I am a person who lives absolutely in the world with this shaky, insecure, viscous everyday life - and, of course, the same to me many more than the celestials.

Gavrilov: In a strange way, I had a question why there are so many self -portraits in your work.

Goralik (laughs) : Very little! There are only eight of them. For everything.

Gavrilov: Yes - but even animals from your work “Fire in Paradise” (not yet completed. - L.G. ) - salamanders, lions, goats, owls with human faces - have a clear portrait similarity with you.

Goralik: Owls are not what they seem.

Gavrilov: Yes. But at the same time, in all these heroes, except that they are “under-” that they are powerless, that they were late, that they were not on time, there is still some kind of fell and abnormality. I recall that one of your exhibitions was called “regret without looking” - her main character was just this kind.

Goralik: Yes. That creature that is unpleasant to look at: it hurts, scary. You can behave well in relation to him - to regret, to help - but at the same time I unbearably want to look away.

Gavrilov: Why is this misunderstanding so important for you? Is this also an attempt to agree with oneself to yourself-or is there anything else there?

Goralik: Just all these creatures are mortals, but to be mortal, and even realizing their mortality is a severe existential burden. What other injury can you invent (and is it necessary?), What is just the burden of realized mortality - both physical and spiritual? I’m not talking here at all about the fear that “a person is mortal and deadly,” but about two burden. One is the burden of the body in general. I have some picture in my work (I don’t know if I will have time to finish it for the exhibition “Theory of everyday life”); It is called "the cathedral of all parts of the body, in the souls of human shots." The general composition of this picture repeats the traditional icons of the cathedral of all saints in one of their common variations. Creatures in this picture are made of difficultly intertwined insides, over their heads they have niabes, they are ahead of the heavenly light, pouring from operating lamps. Actually, even in the exhibition “regret without looking”, very old, all “not look” were bodily tormented creatures: they all needed help-not because they in some terrible life circumstances, but simply because their body brings them in different ways. Yes, and mental flour with bodily flour, in essence, are inseparable.

Gavrilov: There is such a famous text-presentation to the young artist, where, among other things, he writes rather maliciously: “Do not be afraid of perfection, you will not achieve him anyway.” On a large retrospect of Prigov, which was called “from the Renaissance to conceptualism”, I suddenly noticed that the proves in very different projects (say, in his video installations) turned to the same thing: he did things that are fascinating, perfect, aged in the genre of Moskhovsky Surrealism or metaphysical painting and sculpture - after What during a video recorded in the video destroyed them. In this it was endlessly manifested (well, now, probably, this can be explained so) his disappointment in the transforming power of perfection. For Dali, this was a very possible way - if you draw a fairly beautiful picture, then you, in some way, touch upon immortality; For Prigov - no longer. Do I understand correctly that in a technical sense you are more likely with Prigov, than with Dali? It seems to me that in your work you very diligently and persistently combine extremely detailed elaboration with some incompleteness, imperfection.

Goralik: Oh yes - this, in some way, is super -task. For example, I still can use a compass and a ruler as some kind of mathematician by education. A huge number of ornaments, which, for example, were used in the Apography series, imitating icons, it was possible to build and draw geometrically correctly. But my decision was to do a job that would create the illusion of very carefully spelled out, but with a close examination of a crooked. This was important not only because the imaginary author Yakov Petrovsky, the person who did these apographs, was so arranged (he was also a mathematician by education, he could also do this), but because it was very important for me to be closer to what is commonly called (I hate this expression, it is incorrect, incorrect) Art Brut ) than the correct icon prescription. Especially when it comes to my icons. We remember that the icon is often understood as the mirror of the world, the cast of the universe. I deeply believe that the universe for some reasons is arranged exactly like this: from afar it can look quite whole, and near, in each specific detail, it is very deeply imperfect - and I see in this pure divine fishing: otherwise it would be inaccessible to us, unknowable. His roughness is the mercy of the Lord. Imagine that you are entering the perfectly cleaned room: it is scary to be in it, it seems to be not intended for life; Now imagine a far from perfectly removed, but very hot house, where a children's toy can be laid on the floor, where a corner is overwhelmed by the wall - people live there, in principle you can survive. The imperfection of the world is God's mercy, he thus makes this world carried out for imperfect us; He makes it proportionate, in contact with us and saves us from extreme hatred of himself, from a sense of unforgivable imperfection. It seems to me that I am a person with a bad eye - I work without a ruler and a circul, for example, simply because this effect will be designed.

Gavrilov: In the history of the “Paper Church of the city of Tukhachevsk”, the history of the Soviet church of the post -war years merges for me at the same time, where Christians deliberately refused the possibility of public confession of faith, and the movement of paper architecture, where the participants deliberately refused to implement their projects. Why is this experience of non -negotiating, that is, speaking through non -negotiating, is so important for you today?

Goralik: Well, first of all, everything that helps to make private life even more private is very interested in me. There is nothing more than a private church - I want to say the “home church”, but the “home church” has a slightly different meaning; Let's just say a church within one apartment. I am now working on a book about the Tukhachevskaya Paper Church; There, this particular, isolation is the central, of course, the topic.

Gavrilov: What will happen in this book?

Goralik: it will be either a book or a detailed article (I will see what will happen to the volume) written in the Non-Fiction genre. I have an imaginary city in Tukhachevsk in my head: it is in the place of St. Petersburg in the absence of St. Petersburg. I am not in any way a history specialist and geoistory, but I allow myself to imagine that Peter did not create Petersburg and the development of this region went like it was going on - small settlements, then small cities, and then, in 1948, according to the directive of Comrade Stalin, a city from scratch was created, built on bones among the swamps and is called Tukhachevsk. This is a “box” city, where a city-forming enterprise is a secret plant, Tukhachevsky experienced algae processing plant (TOVK). This is a typical Soviet box: 800,000 people and a very high educational qualification, as it often happened in such boxes. Among the imaginary historians of this imaginary city there is one who says that culture in Tukhachevsk existed exclusively due to its ability to propagate divisions. Tukhachevskaya Paper Church arises in 1980 - at the end of this year, the first large underground “gathering” takes place, as many as 17 people. The words “paper church” are born later: naturally, it was not about storing icons, but one of the parishioners said that he was drawing some pictures: “I would bring to show the next time.” Then the words “paper church” arose-due to the fact that the drawings of the parishioners replaced, in fact, traditional icons. Someone made meetings and discussions, in turn gave “lectures”-but in reality the preaching. Someone knocked. Everything is as always.

What is this group priceless for me? First of all, of course, for me, the Tukhachevskaya Paper Church is the quintessence of the late Soviet intelligentsia, the very one that is “some kind of very Soviet” and “some very anti-Soviet” at the same time, which was in constant and demanding spiritual search, despite the lack of air around. At first, the Quadratovtsev (they called themselves by the name of their conditional priest, after the collapse of the USSR who really accepted the rank-Fr. Sergius (Quadratov)) did not notice, then, as it should be, they were issued, then someone (we still do not know-who) began to tap, then everything began, and then an amazing story struck. A serial killer appeared in Tukhachevsk. There were enough serial killers in the Soviet Union, and some of their affairs are known - but the Soviet Union stubbornly pretended that there were no serial killers in it. In Tukhachevsk, a certain person arose, who was quickly called the “Tukhachevsky prince”: he killed girls aged 15 to 19 years and laid them in public places to “sleep” in bed in the bed of beds. And all the time it turned out that this story was densely connected with the paper church: the brother of one of the parishioners turned out to be a witness who discovered the body, the sheets were bought in a store where the mother of another parishioner worked, then among the girls was a classmate of her son Kadratova. Finally, one of the key participants in the BC was arrested, a man named Yakov Petrovsky (it is important to mention that he is a member of the imaginary family of Petrovsky, who lives in my head: for example, his elder brother Sergey Petrovsky is the author of my book “The Oral Folk Creativity of the M-1 sector” and the father of the girl Agatha from my children's books). Yakov Petrovsky, the author of very many drawings and icons that I put up, was so close to the “Tukhachevsky prince” case that he was arrested on suspicion of murders and managed to sit under investigation for some time; But, while he was in the isolator, the last murder occurred - a girl named Mara Yakovlev, the daughter of one of the parishioners of the church, died. Petrovsky was released, and in some inconceivable way he managed to quickly go to the west-almost as a political resort. As soon as he was abroad, he made the first publication about the Tukhachevskaya Paper Church in one of the emigrant American magazines - and from that moment the history of the church has become known and began to be fixed. With the BC itself, things were bad: the group did not survive the death of Mara and all surrounding events and gradually broke up. Soon, perestroika struck; The fate of the participants in the paper church turned out to be very different. Sergey Kavadatov, as already mentioned, accepted the san; Yakov Petrovsky to this day lives in the United States, works as a programmer and as an artist, is the author of the series “A number of minor events and phenomena” and the author of the “Apography” series that I exhibit. I am slowly working on the history of the Tukhachevsk paper church. My greed is before this plot, my passionate desire to engage in them are associated with the opportunity to plunge with the head into the private life of people who in the middle of nothing, from scratch are trying to build their relationship with the Lord and faith. “Nothing in the middle” is not only “outside the church”: it is important to remember that this is not about Moscow or St. Petersburg, but about a much more stuffy and information -isolated space. Here you have a semi-comic story: at some point, a group of three people who used, sorry, the book of Zeno Kosidovsky as a support for their religious thought, because other, normal, sources of biblical plots, joined the BC. Therefore, of course, I am interested in the opportunity to plunge headlong into this world, into these relations with faith. For this, everything is started.

Gavrilov: It may, at first glance, it seem that this is a quasi-codic narrative, non-fiction inside the fictional world, which intersects with some rather memorable projects of the 80s-90s-both in literature and art: the plasticine worlds of the Odessa duet of the Martynchiks come to my memory, and the Bitovsky “teacher of symmetry”, and the translations that appeared in the same period. Borkhesovsky "Pierre Menara." And at the same time, a very important intonation is different here, but I myself would not undertake to formulate it. What is the difference between this work for you from the reproduction of the absolutely private life of Pierre Menar, rewriting Don Quixote?

Goralik: With Pierre Menar as a character, I have some community, some sense of intimacy. But it is probably important that I am not interested in peacekeeping is not interested in the structure of the universe: on the contrary, it is important for me that the reader knows this universe - the Universe of the late Soviet intelligentsia - to nausea. He does not need to explain the structure of the world - and you can completely surrender to the structure of people in it (to the best of my author’s forces). In a sense, if it were not for the desire for a little greater freedom, the story with the BC could have occurred in Novosibirsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Minsk, Tula, Arzamas-16. Even the genre of pseudo -disclosure is important to me exactly because it allows you to deal with the relationship of a person, society and faith as close as possible, and not how the world order works. I am extremely important to me, the complete customary of the household world.

Gavrilov: You suggest that the viewer (or reader) completely integrated the image of late Soviet household life, while the viewer actually came to the world today, for whom the word “pioneer”, as the critic Galina Yuzefovich recently recorded for his eldest son, means “I don’t remember such color scouts with bandans on the neck”.

Горалик: Давайте тогда скажем так: мне важно, что мир советской повседневности если и не «знаком», то описан и проговорен: для того, чтобы узнать его бытовое устройство, совершенно не нужна я — информации хватает. Я же могу работать с частными жизнями в нем.

Гаврилов: Ваш проект -mnesia: wearable things , с одной стороны, с очевидностью наследует концептуалистским инсталляциям, а с другой — это культурное усилие по бесконечному переузнаванию узнавания выносит его на территорию, близкую к альтернативной моде Андрея Бартенева. Вы много занимаетесь языком костюма — и на этом языке, мне кажется, высказываетесь с яркой, почти плакатной ясностью, в то время как в стихах, прозе, других визуальных сериях очень большая работа по пониманию сказанного ложится на читателя и зрителя. Почему для вас тут это высказывание возможно?

Горалик: Я преподаю в Шанинке, в магистратуре по теории моды, курс «Повседневный костюм и трансгрессия». Слово «повседневный» здесь, как всегда, для меня важно: я интересуюсь тем, как человек справляется со своей одеждой с утра до вечера. Собственно, проект -mnesia , состоящий из wearable art (большей частью — из моих работ по серебру), — это разговор про норму и ее нарушение: про то, как норма складывается, и про то, почему, как, зачем она нарушается. В этих объектах разговор со зрителем ведется, может быть, более прямым языком, чем в стихах или других моих штуках, потому что язык костюма и синтаксис костюма менее ясны для зрителя: например, с текстом или картиной зритель остается наедине, в то время как предмет костюма всегда затерян среди других предметов костюма. Мне интересно смешивать на этой территории непрямое высказывание и очень прямое высказывание (например, у вещей из проекта -mnesia есть имена, названия, как у книг: «Кольцо о гордыне», «Брошь о наивной искренности»).

Гаврилов: Эта выставка объединяет ваши работы за 10 лет. Проявляются ли здесь какие-то сюжеты, которых не было, когда вы начинали планировать эти вещи, или они настолько точно сделаны у вас внутри головы, что остается только перенести их вовне?

Горалик: У меня поразительным образом никогда не получается спонтанная работа. Я, например, запрещаю себе это и в стихах, и в прозе. Я запрещаю себе действовать по принципу «так уж песенка поется», идти за песенкой, а не выстраивать ее. Я знаю, что есть те, кто идет, например, в стихе за рифмой — и получается прекрасно, но я не из них: мне надо жестко думать над структурой и словами. Буквально каждый проект на выставке (почти все работы на ней объединены в цельные проекты: -mnesia , «Бумажная церковь Тухачевска», «Апографии» и так далее) задумывается, планируется, записывается и выполняется.

Гаврилов: А какие-то вещи, сделанные сегодня, перекликаются с вещами и темами, скажем, десятилетней давности? Понятно, что есть сквозные идеи — идея проницаемого пространства, идея отстаивания смертности (и приватности на фоне смертности), а что между ними?

Горалик: Да, конечно. У меня все время есть чувство, что во всем, что я делаю, включая статьи о теории костюма, я говорю об одном и том же: о ежедневном выживании смертного существа при бессмертном Боге. Меняется только язык. Это как если бы в голове у меня был шарящий фонарь: он выхватывает из тьмы зоопарк — и получается книжка «Все, способные дышать дыхание» (она сейчас в работе); там очень много связано с понятием «животности», с тем, что такое животное. Он выхватывает из тьмы русскую икону и историю городов-«ящиков» в СССР — и получается история с Бумажной церковью; он выхватывает из темноты Венецию — и получается дописываемая мной сейчас книга про детей в таком замкнутом, странном мире между землей и водой. Если я правильно понимаю, кстати, это похоже на то, как работает психоз: психоз выхватывает элементы реальности и встраивает в болезненную картину мира. Человек находится в психотическом расстройстве, и тут кто-нибудь включает телевизор: «О! Телевизор разговаривает со мной!» А в другой ситуации человек находится в психотическом расстройстве, а тут дождь пошел: «О! Молнии — это код!» Вот мне кажется, что я ничуть не сложнее в этом смысле устроена: на что я ни смотрю, я вижу одну и ту же навязчиво интересующую меня вещь — выживание смертного существа при бессмертном Боге.

Гаврилов: Что является праксисом этого искусства? Вот есть скульптор Церетели. Торгует бронзой. Есть художник Сафронов, торгует понятно чем. У этих произведений искусства есть некая прагматическая задача. Что является праксисом вашего искусства? Вот существует объект «Сошествие Христа в 6-ю областную инфекционную больницу г. Тухачевска».

Горалик: Да. Он лежит на принадлежащем Институту книги складе на улице Скотопрогонная: если бы такой улицы не было, ее надо было бы придумать. Праксис же его таков, каков в моем представлении праксис моих стихов, например. Есть какое-то мое «мы». Это очень немного человек: иногда мне кажется, что пять, иногда — что 14—15; представить себе 20 я уже не могу. Они эти стихи видят и, я надеюсь, думают: «Хорошие стихи». Это и есть праксис моих стихов. По моему ощущению, все, что я делаю, я делаю для этих 14—15 «моих» людей; если же происходящим интересуется кто-то еще, это кажется мне некоторой аберрацией, некоторой случайностью. Я счастлива и благодарна тем, кто публикует мои книги, кто ставит мои выставки, но как бы до сих пор не могу в это поверить и это воспринять. Вот сейчас я ставлю большую выставку и отдаю себе отчет, что она, наверное, делается не для 15 человек, но в голове моей на нее по-прежнему смотрят те же 15 пар глаз. Большинство вещей, которые я делаю, я просто кладу у себя в фейсбуке и на сайте. Но главный праксис моей работы даже не в этом. Главное — я делаю эти вещи, чтобы перестать о них думать, чтобы мое сознание от них избавилось. Если я сделаю картинку «Сошествие Христа в 6-ю областную инфекционную больницу г. Тухачевска», она будет лежать на улице Скотопрогонной, а не у меня в голове. Это огромное облегчение.