The birth of diplomacy

On the 25th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between Ukraine and Russia. On air, the first ambassador of Ukraine to the Russian Federation Vladimir Kryzhanivsky

Vitaly Portnikov: August - a month of proclamation of the independence of Ukraine and other former post -Soviet republics, a month that had a decisive influence on the entire course of events in the post -Soviet space. We are talking about the results of Ukrainian independence. The guest of our broadcast is the first Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Ambassador of Ukraine to the Russian Federation Vladimir Kryzhanivsky .

As far as I remember, you were a people's deputy of Ukraine and came to Moscow even before Ukrainian independence was confirmed. That is, you and President Leonid Kravchuk were sure that on December 1, everything would be all right?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: On the evening of December 2, Galya Starovoitov came to me with three cloves, very sincerely congratulated me. This was the only person from the Russian establishment who heard about how our referendum ended. Then she suddenly began to tell me recent events, she said: “You know, I had Boris Nikolaevich at the end of November. I told him: from what I hear from my friends and more informed people from Ukraine, I realized that there will be something very, very incredible, that is, the percentage that will vote for this will just go off. Do you understand this or not?” He says: "Galya, we are not up to this now. You understand, we need to cope with Gorbachev. What are you worried about?"

Repeat of the program dated August 6, 2016

August-the month of the 25th anniversary of the proclamation of independence of Ukraine and other former post-Soviet republics

Vitaly Portnikov: Shortly before the death of Galina Vasilievna, I met her, recorded an interview for a large project, which we then prepared here with a group of Ukrainian journalists - the Oral Project of Ukrainian History. She told all this on the film, so this certificate was recorded, it really was so. Moreover, Boris Nikolaevich, as I understand it, did not believe at all that most Ukrainians would vote for independence, he believed that the referendum would fall.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: He was then very busy with what was happening there, and what was happening with us was an absolutely peripheral thing for him. In general, it was extremely difficult in Russia: you remember Russian stores - horror compared to Ukraine. Three varieties of sausage in the Eliseevsky gastronom ... it was necessary to feed people with something. Therefore, they thought how to quickly pick up power, they understood that the later they would take power, the more difficult it would be for them to get out of this position.

Vitaly Portnikov: Did you arrive in August 1991?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: August 30.

Vitaly Portnikov: For three months there were two centers - union and Russian. Have you talked with both representatives of both?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: I’ll tell you frankly, there was such an opposition in conversations with Kravchuk ... He always told me that I would pay as little attention as possible to the issues of the Union, and tried to contact them with all possible ways to contact the Russian leadership and focus on them because we sailed from them. And he was almost absolutely confident: nevertheless, he would end with the fact that Yeltsin would take power in Moscow. Therefore, he focused me that I did not enter ... by the way, the Union government did not try to at least somehow concentrate its attention on this, it was also great for us.

Vitaly Portnikov: Then there was no longer a allied government, at the head of the government was Ivan Silaev, Prime Minister of Russia.

It was extremely difficult in Russia: you remember Russian stores - horror compared to Ukraine

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: I remember, we met with Fokin, Silaev, there were conversations, I already felt that it was. But then the interstate economic committee was already organized, where they thought about what will happen next, what could be expected. Of course, the most basic is those events that occurred after December 1. Even the convulsive movements of Gorbachev could no longer lead to anything, and we understood this. Although there was a certain excitement when we flew from the Belovezhskaya Pushcha to Moscow: we were a little afraid whether the machine gunners, "green men" would meet us. Shaposhnikov said that there would be nothing, that is, he already understood where the vector was going.

Vitaly Portnikov: Have you been a participant in these negotiations? When you went, did you understand how the case would end in the Belovezhskaya Pushcha?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Kravchuk went there to clearly explain that the game is finished, we need to disperse, and we must somehow calm our people.

Vitaliy Portnikov: On the day when the Belovezhskaya Pushcha ended, I did not understand what happened, like my Russian colleagues. But I proceeded from the fact that Ukraine is now an independent state, it dismantled the union agreement (you were one of those who voted for it). Thus, we should not enter into no new interstate unions. And my Russian colleagues, on the contrary, were sure that independence was a step towards a new union, and the fact that the Union collapsed was a surprise for them. We were, as it were, on different sides of this wall, but both sides were stunned by what happened there.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: First of all, what was done from Ukraine, what was done in Belovezhskaya Pushcha was a desire to calm people. A lot of people thought: I have brothers, sisters there, what will happen? There was a desire to calm: everything will be fine, you do not worry, there will be a good relationship.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Relatively speaking, there will be no, as in Yugoslavia ...

We came here to find out once and for all: Ukraine is an independent state, and yesterday the Ukrainian people confirmed this

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: When we were suddenly offered that it was a union of democratic states ... They wanted to call this "union", and we insisted that in no case the "Union". Well, the Commonwealth of Democratic States. And if Uzbekistan joins (we counted on it) - are they also democratic? Categorically - only "independent states". This must be written, because we came here to learn once and for all: Ukraine is an independent state, and yesterday the Ukrainian people confirmed it. We did as no one did, we went to confirm the people. But many were very counting on ... And we must, to a certain extent, thank the Communists for the fact that they practically did not campaign against the referendum.

Vitaly Portnikov: How can you thank them if you banned them on August 25, 1991?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: They stayed with the stands, with radio, with television, but withstood until December 1.

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that they were just more afraid of Yeltsin than you?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: They were not so much afraid of Yeltsin, the Moscow leadership was fooled before the loss of the pulse. I had a conversation with Stanislav Ivanovich Gurenko six months before his death ...

Vitaly Portnikov: This is the last chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine.

We must thank the Communists for practically not campaigning against referendum

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: He told me this: "Volodya, when we saw this horror, these trembling hands of Yanaev and everything else, we realized that we needed to leave them at all costs." At this time, we turned out to be allies, because they and we wanted independent Ukraine, only different. They also wanted independent Ukraine, but their, that, communist. In this case, we were fellow travelers, so they did not interfere with a referendum, so they voted.

Yes, of course, to a certain extent, they were afraid of the GKChP. But I had a frank conversation with Mr. Kryuchkov, also a member of the Politburo, the secretary of the Central Committee, who told me that the Communists understood everyone and voted: "What are you talking about? They gave the Communists a team." He is absolutely wrong. Yes, they gave them a team, but who gave the team? Stanislav Gurenko.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Yes, but Stanislav Ivanovich supported the GKChP.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: But when they voted, Stanislav Ivanovich already understood everything.

These are the pillars of the regime, and now they congratulate each other on Ukrainian independence!

Vitaly Portnikov: When independence was proclaimed (and then I ran to transfer information to the negotiation point, which was on the ground floor), Stanislav Gurenko left the hall, General Nikolai Galushko, the last chairman of the KGB of the Ukrainian SSR and the future Minister of State Security of Russia, approached him. Galushko tells him: "Stanislav, I congratulate you, finally we are free." I did not understand what was happening. The first secretary of the Party Central Committee, yesterday he supported the GKChP, chairman of the KGB of the Ukrainian SSR ... These are pillars of the regime, and now they congratulate each other on Ukrainian independence! I still think about it.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: In the last months of his life, the then leader of the Ukrainian Bandera movement Shukhevich, in a conversation with his environment, said: "We will die, but the Communists will proclaim an independent Ukraine." He rested in Odessa twice, apparently, he saw something and understood. He lived in the forests all the time, and then he saw living people, and, apparently, felt that it could be so.

The infection of independence was incredibly common among any Ukrainians. Pyotr Alekseevich Kropotkin , Prince Kropotkin, from his mother of the hetman Sulima , said this: "It surprises me as such a smartest and educated person, like Bogdan Khmelnitsky, could succumb to the cheaper diplomacy of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich." Kropotkin understood a lot, because he was vividly interested in the history of Ukraine.

I must say frankly: everything that is happening now is for me - a terrifying disappointment in me. I expected this, I thought that perhaps it would be, but just did not know how soon it would come to the point that they would begin to enter Ukraine. All the time I perfectly understood that this should end, but the hope was warm that they had enough mind, that they will listen to the one they hate, Mr. Brzezinsky , who said to them: without normal relations with Ukraine, there will never be normal Russia.

Vitaliy Portnikov: You gave out your romanticism, which hit me when we worked in the 90s in Moscow.

Independence infection was incredibly common among any Ukrainians

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: I was already 51 years old at that time, and I perfectly understood that there are Russian and Russians, but there are extremely few of the Russians we are talking about. These are units: Sergey Kovalev , Elena Bonner , Yuri Afanasyev - literally on the fingers of two hands you can calculate people who everyone saw and soberly understood everything.

Vitaly Portnikov: Galina Starovoitova also understood reality well.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: I would like to disappoint you a little. She was very alarmed what she said.

Vitaliy Portnikov: She was then an adviser to the President of Russia, she was supposed to be alarmed in position.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: No, not only, to your liking, too. This is a rare phenomenon - so that in the Russian intellectual there is an understanding of everything. I remember the conversation with Sergey Kovalev. When I suddenly told him a couple of times: “Well, you, Russians,” he answered me: “Vladimir Petrovich, I am not“ you are Russians ”and not“ we are Russians ”, I am Sergey Adamovich Kovalev. I am a personality, I am Kovalev.” That is, "I have my own system of views, and do not plant me in a herd." This was very influenced by my system of views, I realized that there are literally units of such people.

Vitaly Portnikov: Did your official contacts also led to such a misunderstanding?

They said: you have no experience of statehood, we will show you everything and tell you everything

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Of course. They said: you have no experience of statehood, we will show you and tell you everything. Why do you need this unnecessaryness? You don't know how to do it. But wait, one of the most successful chancellors of Russia was Bezborodko , he built all the systematics, the whole philosophy of your empire, and he was a Ukrainian ...

Vitaly Portnikov: It seems to me that they still do not want to know this. There is such a mythology of the accession of backward lands to Moscow.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Almost no one knows why the street is called Maroseyka. And it is so called because there was a Little Russian order. There are two Khokhlovsky lanes, the wards of Mazepa . What was in the Little Russian order: they brought clerks from Ukraine and said-we give a parish, you must open a school at the church, teach these people some kind of literacy. Indeed, at that time Russia was almost illiterate, and Ukraine was almost completely competent. By the end of the XVIII century, everything came to its own circles, Ukraine was also almost illiterate.

Vitaly Portnikov: If we talk about official contacts, can you say that then by some point there was a feeling that these are two states that are in contact with each other?

What the officer and soldier should do - he must fulfill the order, because the aggressor attacked his country

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: The installation of Butenko and Kravchuk was tough: in no case to show that we are a completely distant state. At one of the first press conferences they told me: they say that when your officers take the oath, they ask them: what will you do if Russia tries to introduce troops into Ukraine? What the officer and soldier should do - he must comply with the order, because the aggressor attacked his country. How will you fight with the Russians? And what should we do if the Russians enter our territory? Misunderstanding how we can ... but these are the townsfolk. In general, the upper layers perfectly understood everything.

Vitaly Portnikov: It seems to me that when Vladimir Putin spoke of the introduction of Russian troops in Ukraine on the eve of the Donbass adventure, he was just as sure that there would be no resistance to these troops, because "we are one people." The same was said in the official interview. How does this differ from what was in the 90s?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Usually I say: the surname of the current president of Russia - "$ 110 per barrel of oil." And the surname of the president who was then was "$ 10-12 per barrel of oil." This is the difference: he did not have what is now. For our happiness, this, the current one is more cowardly.

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think he would go to the end?

The surname of the current president of Russia - "$ 110 per barrel of oil"

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: He was more tough.

Vitaly Portnikov: He was a democrat, he had democracy in his heart - this was said by a friend Clinton.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Remember what Bush said about Putin? He looked into his eyes and saw ... What did he see? That the boat drowned? This is the foreseeable disappointment. Democrat Volodya Lukin ...

Vitaly Portnikov: He was a democrat to the end, he came here to be mediated when there were negotiations between Yanukovych with the opposition.

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: So what?

Vitaly Portnikov: What would you like to do? He went ... Why do you think people act in the proposed circumstances? Then there were some circumstances, now - others ...

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Egor Timurovich Gaidar, no matter what they say, was pushed on the idea of making normal Russia. He was not great to Ukraine, but I remember our conversation: he understood everything correctly. He said: "They want to leave? Let them leave." He understood: less space that must be serviced is easier. Let them leave, we would cope with this ... The rest said: no, no, let it be worse for us, but let them be here.

Vitaly Portnikov: That is, this philosophy existed from the 90s, including, and surrounded by Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin?

Egor Timurovich Gaidar, no matter what they say, was moved on the idea of making normal Russia

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: Of course. And what is sober on his mind, then Zhirinovsky has in the tongue. This person very often says things that others think.

Vitaly Portnikov: You were awarded a verifying letter to Vice President Rutsko, not Yeltsin. Was there any symbolism in this?

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: No. They scolded me very much for this: you are not finalizing, you must do everything possible to hand it to the president ... I say: listen, Robert Strauuss came, the US Ambassador, and handed the Terrible letter to Rutskoi. There is a huge probability that on the day when I give a letter, he will violate the "sports regime", and then what? If the appointed presentation of the letter suddenly will not take place, then this is a very unpleasant incident between countries. Therefore, they categorically said - let them give ...

Each time, bring him to his senses ... You perfectly remember that incident when he was completely drunk in the Presidium of the Supreme Council and began to say such things - it was horror ... And Khasbulatov did everything possible so that he showed himself in all its glory, did not let him leave. Two hours later, he stood near the fiction of the art theater absolutely sober and gave an interview. He was immediately brought to his senses, because it was necessary to show that he was not drunk.

Boris Nikolaevich - Russian Democrat. As Melnichenko said, all Russian democracy ends on the Ukrainian issue.

Vitaly Portnikov: Then I cannot understand the reason for your disappointment. If you understood this then, then what are disappointed now? Now everything has come to the result.

All Russian democracy ends on the Ukrainian issue

Vladimir Kryzhanivsky: My children are my children and a Russian woman. My wife is Russian. I have many friends. Саша Музыкантский, прекрасный человек, по отцу – еврей, по маме – украинец, родом из Харькова… У меня со многими людьми были прекрасные отношения. Я работал в России, я там прожил семь лет. Какая-то надежда все время теплилась: они же должны понимать, неужели они не понимают? Ведь несложно понять: для них выгодно, чтобы мы были в хороших отношениях. То, что есть сейчас, для них очень невыгодно.

Виталий Портников: Вы считаете эту ситуацию безвозвратной?

Владимир Крыжанивский: Очень долго потом придется… Вы же помните, что написала эта девочка: "Никогда мы не будем братьями" . Ведь это сказано от сердца и здорово от ума. Оказывается, мы не были братьями, никакие мы не братья. Конотоп – это что? Полтава – это что?

Виталий Портников: Меня больше беспокоит то, что конфликт затягивается. Была какая-то надежда, что он быстро разрешится, но при затягивании конфликта растут поколения, которые живут в совершенно разных ценностных мирах. Это длится уже два года, а может длиться пять, десять лет, и тогда уже, как появилось первое поколение украинцев, живших в независимой стране, так появится первое поколение украинцев, которые вырастут в обстановке конфликта с Россией, и наоборот.

Владимир Крыжанивский: Это реальность до определенной степени. Наверное, это плохо, но, с другой стороны, может быть, и хорошо. Важно, чтобы не только я, но и каждый украинец понимал это. И когда снова начинают говорить: "ну, не может быть, чтобы он хотел воевать с нами", я говорю: послушайте, а что он делает? Это же не он воюет. Были же добровольцы в Испании, так и тут добровольцы. Это ужас…

Меня беспокоит то, что конфликт затягивается

Виталий Портников: Добровольцев в Испанию тоже посылал товарищ Сталин, они не сами по себе появлялись.

Владимир Крыжанивский: Я встречаю своего знакомого, ему 45 лет, он говорит: "Наконец-то я добился того, что еду в АТО".

Виталий Портников: Да, это люди, которые разделяли идеи, как со стороны России, так и со стороны Украины.

Владимир Крыжанивский: Там некоторые головорезы вообще не имеют башни – думаете, там есть какие-то мысли?

Vitaly Portnikov: Yes, of course. Во многом эти мысли им предложили мои коллеги с российского телевидения.

Владимир Крыжанивский: Я не знаю. Гибель Павла Шеремета – для меня это… Опять будут говорить: ну, что вы говорите? Как в "Крестном отце": что бы они сейчас ни делали, что бы ни происходило у нас, может быть, они не имеют к этому никакого отношения, но мы-то будем думать, что это они…

Виталий Портников: Это очень важный вывод из нашего разговора.