"It is interesting to feel the youth, to whom Navalny did not reach"

Interview with a political strategist from the headquarters of Ksenia Sobchak Vitaly Shklyarova - Ilya Azar

On October 24, a presidential candidate of Russia, TV presenter Ksenia Sobchak announced members of her election team. The Belarusian political strategist Vitaly Shklyarov will be responsible for the online direction at the Sobchak election headquarters. Before that, he worked at the election campaigns of US presidential candidate Bernie Sanders and German Chancellor Angels Merkel. This summer, he was a consultant to the successful municipal campaign of Dmitry Gudkov and Maxim Katz.

In an interview with the special correspondent of Novaya Gazeta, Ilya Azar Shklyarov said that in the headquarters of Sobchak he would try to convert millions of her Instagram subscribers on volunteers using the achievements of the municipal campaign. He expects youth to interest both the 2018 elections and the subsequent elections of the Moscow Mayor. Shklyarov does not consider Sobchak the Kremlin’s project and is sure that a variety of candidates need to be advanced for the election so that democracy will ever appear in the scorched Russian glade.

- What exactly will you do at the headquarters of Sobchak?

- I will advise. I’ll try to talk with youth through Instagram, through various social networks, using the technologies of our software, which we made for municipal elections.

No one knows how 5 million Sobchak subscribers are converted. Maybe there will be 30, 50 or 100 thousand living people who will become volunteers, and they can be taught, or maybe, on the contrary, only a thousand.

- And all?

- For me, in this whole story, not the political project itself is important, but its technical side. I get involved in this with great pleasure only because I want all our experience throughout the country to have all the experience.

With municipal elections, we ran into [technology] in Moscow and we understand a little how to do it. With the campaign of Gudkov [in the mayor’s elections] we will fix this again. It was a test drive.

At the country's level, no one has never done this at all, except for the Kremlin, so it is important for me to practice, find people, and work with the audience Sobchak. I see work here.

- And you were not offered to head the headquarters?

- I refused. I think that the chief of staff should always be a local person who knows the country and local nuances well. Often, consultants who are brought from abroad do incorrectly, saying: “I know how, I will teach you all, I am a guru here. We made Obama this and that. ” There is another market, another mentality, another culture, other meanings.

Everyone should do their own business. I get it well when I stand aside with my experience and some other look and observe. Such a combination worked well with Gudkov and Kats.

Plus, the headquarters is a field work, and I have already done a lot of it, and it is not interesting to me.

But it is interesting - to find other technologies that can be fought with the authorities in 2021 or in 2024. It is interesting to feel the youth, to which Navalny has not reached out or cannot reach. The one with which no one else worked at all. This may not work at all, maybe there will be a nonsense. So what? This is much more important than being the chief of staff.

- Navalny reached for passionate youth, and are you talking about the glamorous youth?

- Maybe. People are different, and not everyone wants to go to protests. At the same time, many people got everything, many people want changes. Someone walks on jokes, someone else because of something. Alexei is very good at working with those who are protestingly charged. I am not saying that he is poorly managed to work with others. He just doesn’t try.

Here, however, no one talked to the girls. Plus for the most democratic process in Russia, this is important. For 2024, this is important. To test how the Russians will perceive a young woman. In this story, there are a lot of introductory ones, about which, no matter from the result, we can say at the end: "Okay, now we know more."

- That is, the boys - for Navalny, and the girls - for Sobchak? So what?

- No, both boys and girls, just slightly politicized. Sobchak, I think, has a lot of subscribers and boys who like her as a beautiful girl. And the girls for whom she is a hero because she is stylish and successful.

It is good for me to work with informal candidates, from the ordinary. Therefore, I do not need the Kremlin at all - well, what are the non -standard ideas there, everything is very clear there. And here we may be interested in the elections that cut of people who were not previously interested in them at all.

The same Bernie Sanders. Well, it would seem, a 74-year-old grandfather from Brooklyn, a socialist. Nevertheless, he drove the youth to the elections, who came to vote for him more than for Trump and for Hillary taken together.

Therefore, a lot of people will come for Sobchak unexpectedly. Or maybe not. But you need to try to find out. Here Tabula Rasa, here you can test a lot of things.

- Did I understand your plan correctly - to find in the audience Sobchak youth for the next Gudkov campaign?

- Plan: to help Ksenia Anatolyevna, to help, most importantly, to Russian democracy. I want to teach young people to participate in the elections for everyone - a liberal, non -liberal, democratic, honest person who will go against the regime against the car.

This is all in a common piggy bank. Interest in the elections increased due to the fact that Navalny Well done, and in 2013 did a great job. Otherwise, this protest electorate would not be. Gudkov did the same partly last year in the elections to the State Duma. The same was done by candidates in the municipal elections. Everyone on their flank needs to be heated, warmed, warm up. We are still so far from choosing who is better, who is worse. Bring voters.

- Did you think at all - to agree or disagree? Was there any reflection?

- Of course it was.

- And what were the arguments against?

- The most important “against” was my suspicion that this is a Kremlin history.

- Is it dissipated?

- I talked with some people, and this, God forbid, not the administration, but close friends, like Katz and Gudkov. Almost everyone said that it is unlikely that this story is Kremlin.

Most importantly, I talked with Xenia, and it seemed to me, I was sincere. Do I know this to the end? No. It may be theoretically that through the third, fifth, eighth hands from there [everything] comes from the Kremlin.

I can always jump with any story, nothing holds me. But it seems to me that this is an honest story. It is clear that she wants to capitalize somewhere, not without it, but I don’t see why the Kremlin needs Sobchak. Why is she to him?

- Part of the liberal public perceives her as a real candidate and comes to the polls, which increases their legitimacy.

- Do you think the Kremlin and, in particular, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, needs legitimacy? Legitimacy from Ksenia Sobchak? How important is it to receive 60, 55, or 65%? A person who can start a war in Ukraine, a person who can bomb Syria needs legitimacy from Sobchak? Or for him for the legitimacy of the king, boys, girls who are still unclear, will they come for Sobchak for the polls?

- Do you think he is not interested in the turnout?

-Some kind of circle of specialists around the presidential administration is probably interested in, because they need to report for the results. But for Putin this does not exist. He is a man who is afraid of the West. He can make him be afraid. He can capture another country, he can send the troops where he wants. This is one of the most powerful people in the world. What other turnout?

The problem is that everyone attaches such a meaning to this. The Kremlin is on the arm when everyone says that the Kremlin has tentacles everywhere. Syria steer, puts America in place, the West is afraid. They specially sell this rhetoric, pay a lot of money, contain Russia Today to broadcast these messages. And inside the country is the same.

Do not be this tantrum, work everything calmly further, they would have become agitated in the Kremlin. In this sense, they themselves will expose it to the culuar product of their political technologies.

Because they do not lose anything, and most importantly for them - to split or take attention from Navalny. Naturally, they will try to push the foreheads of Sobchak and Navalny. But if one and the other are not conducted for this, then it will be an antidote.

-Another liberal candidate, Mikhail Prokhorov, did not nominate himself in 2012.

- I see, but Prokhorov had a different situation. He has a huge amount of business and money that depends on the authorities and in this coordinate system cannot help but depend. He has something to lose. I do not think that Prokhorov himself wanted to run for president.

But Ksenia wants herself, I think.

“But why does she need it?”

“I feel it like that.” She is a bold and intelligent woman who has achieved a lot in life herself, although partly in the shadow of her family, the history of dad, relations with Putin. This is partly a challenge to itself, but also a desire to help [liberal audience], because Alexei Navalny is not registered. Although it may not be registered.

Nevertheless, look, in a couple of days there were, in my opinion, about 30 thousand publications. That is, suddenly about elections in Russia - it does not matter with a plus or minus sign - they spoke around the world. This is important. The more they talk about it, the more [people] are of interest in the elections.

It is important any movement with a democratic candidate and even more so in our coordinate system, where the meadow is burned out. And there is simply no other way. A child cannot be born in three months, he needs a certain development. Democracy cannot appear in Russia at once, this is a process. In order for normal elections to be formed here, and the turnout does not increase because they drive, but because people have become clear why this is important, there should be time and there should be cases such as municipal elections. There should be many of them.

To learn how to riding, you need to at least once sit on a horse.

- Navalny at least has a long -term strategy for coming to power, but Sobchak does not have such a goal at all.

- How do you know? I don't know that. Maybe she really plays for a long time. She told me that she was interested in [participating] in 2024.

It’s not just to take and propiar. And why? A person has an incredible recognition rating, a person has his own business, a person has his own show. She is young, she is 35. Two -thirds of her life are ahead, and I think that she also got everything. She is already a mother, and women, believe me, think differently. They are actually more bold than men. I decided - well done, cool.

“You want to say that she seriously sees herself as the president of 2024 or 2030?”

“I don't even think about the ultimate goal of the path.” I don’t know how much she sees it, but we have already begun to reason whether it will turn out or not, she belongs to this camp or not. Without giving a person to say anything yet, they began to solve their own or a stranger.

The world is not black and white, there are many shades in it, so in our political system it is necessary to do something, it does not care what. It is necessary to beat the water so that the waves diverge. The more these waves diverge, the more people will find out about it and the more people will be involved.

The question is not when Putin leaves. The question is how we will win. It doesn't matter when. You need to play for a long time. I am 41, and I think that about 20 years I can easily spend on it. These are three presidential terms and four or five State Duma. You can change a lot. The question is how? And all.

- You say so, as if we will have the first elections in the history of modern Russia.

- No, of course, not the first. But the more of them there are, the more training will be, the more people will be involved in it. The wider the meadow, the more flowers in this meadow, different colors - like Navalny, Sobchak, Katz, Gudkov, Yavlinsky - the better.

- But there is an opinion that the elections are falsify with us, that this is a game with shulers. Why play it?

- Why live? We still die.

- Sobchak has a powerful anti -rating. Can you fight this at all? Or there is no bad PR?

- In our time, there is no bad PR at all. Look at Trump. There are no impossible tasks. High anti -rating is bad, but you can work with this. This is a matter of goal. Make it beautiful and fluffy? No, this is not a goal.

-And she has a high anti-rating because of what?

“I think because of all sorts of shows in which she participated.” I think because of the mental warehouse of Russian people. A successful woman is not quoted, not appreciated. It is generally difficult for men to admit their weakness, and even more so in front of a woman. Although a fairly obvious thing, especially in Russia, that men are much weaker than women who work and look for families.

“You said that“ our people were very hungry for honesty, that they didn’t even start talking to them, but they should be heard and heard. ”

- Yes, listening and talking with people is the most important thing that practically no modern politician knows how.

- Ksenia Anatolyevna is capable of this, how does it seem to you?

- Why not? Why are you making such a monster out of it? She is the same person.

“I'm not saying that she is a monster, but she is a little from another opera.”

- So what? Look at the motley of our municipal deputies. Someone is 18, someone 82. Someone from the military plant of space technology, someone was judged. I have no doubt that a certain lifestyle leaves an imprint on character and behavior, and Sobchak has its own way of life, but this does not mean that it cannot differently.

The world is different, we are all different. It would be bad if everyone was now like Navalny, like Sobchak, or as Schlosberg. It is necessary to beat all the emptys in hand, who begin to push the heroes who also climb into the embrasures in this coordinate system. Such people just need to help as much as possible. And then let's see what happens.

- Do you think that the nomination of Sobchak is ugly in relation to Navalny?

- Do we judge politics in the country by principle - is it beautiful or not in relation to Navalny?

- No. I specifically ask about Sobchak.

- No, I don't think. I believe that every democratically tuned candidate or person who wants to try can do this.

I do not put, like the majority, to a bulk that he is self -centered and pulls a blanket over himself. This is normal, any politician should behave like that. Politics is a sport. Would we go to competitions now, where everything is clear? It would be uninteresting. Anyone who goes against the regime, who opposes Putin, anyone who advocates changing what is happening in the country is good.

- But Ksenia Anatolyevna against Putin acts as softly as possible.

- Another times: no need to hysteria. Without protecting her, I want to give a person time to develop himself. In the same charm of democracy. Let the month work, two. We all, voters, must see what she does, what she says, beat her in the hands, if she says the wrong place, to discuss.

But do not hysteria right away. Because of this, these bubbles are formed, these doughs. The Kremlin lives in its bubble, and we are in its bubble, liberal. If you are not like a bulk, then everything is bad. But if now they allow him, the same emptys who like to sit on sofas and philosophize, begin to say that it is the Kremlin [behind him], I assure you. Therefore, you need to move forward.

- It's not about the variety of candidates, but that Navalny is not allowed to the election, and Sobchak takes his place. It's just not comradely.

- Fine. Planted your friend. Unjust. Is your life ended on this? Do you have to sit too? They put Mikhail Borisovich 10 years ago. Is this on this political protests and everything else ends? Not really. Just if they are planted, you need to show that no one will stop there.

- Well, if my comrade had unjustly removed from the competition, then I would also refuse from a sense of solidarity.

- And if you trained for 15 years, and this is your only chance? In sports, the top of what you can achieve is to get to the Olympics. You train every day, blood, sweat and so on. You get to the Olympics, and you are blamed for you that you are not filming. Why?

- Ksenia Sobchak is not that it has been training a lot for the last 15 years.

- This is a matter of our perception. Maybe she trained. Each of her public performance on television and so on. Someone was sitting at this time, scraped the seeds, screaming on the guitar or drinking beer on the sofa, and she did something. Understand, I don’t defend her, I just say again: “Guys, if we share everyone, we will boil in this juice in the same way.”

- They also say that Navalny gathered the audience for the last year, fuel interest in the elections, but he could not participate ...

- Navalny warmed up the audience. He is well done, really. I take off my hat, there are no questions about this.

- And now Sobchak wants to assemble his electorate - he actually came to the ready.

- Fine. Another situation: Alexei is not allowed - and no one goes anymore. The heated audience is sitting. Won? Better from this? Six months later, even a month later, the audience will begin to blow out.

- Sobchak statement that she will withdraw her candidacy, if they register Navalny, you do not share?

- Why don't I share? A strong solution. Before registration, you need to put as many eggs as possible into different baskets, and then see who has the most chance. They are obviously more with Alexei. She is a great fellow that she promises to star in his favor. Here you are - respect right away, which she rolls out to him. They don't see it.

- This is not respect.

- And what is it?

- Her registration reduces the chances that Navalny will be registered.

- Maybe. And there is a guarantee that they will register Navalny at all, even if it had not gone?

- I would be in the place of Alexei, if he had not been allowed, he would bring his wife Julia. The name is the same, the recognition is the same. This is hard work, and I don’t know if it will agree or not. Вообще, ей уже нужно поставить большой памятник, она у него молодец. Иметь мужа в такой ситуации, когда его сажают постоянно и так далее, надо быть героической женщиной.

- OK. Собчак уже сказала, что у нее нет политической программы. This is right?

— А «против всех» — это разве не политическая программа?

— Это вообще странный слоган, ведь она сама тоже кандидат.

— А как ты выразишь по-другому несогласие с каждым кандидатом или вообще со всем процессом?

— Неучастием в процессе.

— А от этого процесс лучше станет, если не будешь участвовать?

— От участия он тоже лучше не станет.

— Конечно, станет. Не участвовать — вообще ничего, ноль.

— В стратегии бойкота ты хотя бы не участвуешь в цирке, в обмане, ты ждешь, когда…

— Когда наступит хорошее, светлое будущее. Вот я про это и говорю, что не надо ждать.

— Да, но участие не приближает к этому будущему.

— Очень приближает. Я тебе скажу самую короткую и самую крутую программу. «Победить». «Я хочу сменить вот этого человека» — это уже программа. Показать, что ты против процесса — это уже программа, это уже statement. Можно, конечно, написать Библию, кто-нибудь ее когда-нибудь почитает. Сильнейшую программу пишет «Яблоко», но много ли людей читают эти программы?

— Нет, их никто не читает. Но тезисы нужны, конечно.

— Это большое заблуждение, что нужны тезисы. Пойми, что нужны личности, нужны истории, а не тезисы. Нужны истории, за которыми люди пойдут. А тезисов можно написать сколько угодно, и они просто будут тезисами.

— Ну, за Берни Сандерсом пошли из-за его идей, тезисов.

— Слушай, он 25 лет одно и то же говорил, тезисы те же. В контексте Трампа, Хиллари, в контексте проблем и в данный момент времени личность сыграла свое.

— Хорошо, а прошедшая муниципальная кампания — это успех?

— Успех безусловный. Успех в том, что это получилось, что много людей в это поверило, и для них это стало маленькой историей успеха. Успех в том, что об этом заговорили, и даже на международном уровне. Успех в том, что будут десятки, а, может,и сотни вменяемых людей, которые за 4–5 лет что-то сделают.

Да, самая главная работа у этих людей только начинается. От того, как они будут работать, много зависит. Относительно состоявшихся демократий можно говорить о количестве мест и процентов, но у нас еще такой зачаточный период, что просто нужно делать, чтобы было больше, больше, больше результатов.

— Но благодаря вашему проекту «уберизации» в советы пришли люди, которые ничего в этом не понимают.

— Ну ничего. Ты когда первый раз идешь в школу, ты тоже не понимаешь, как писать, а потом книги читаешь, а потом сам пишешь. Все чему-то учатся. А политике нас никогда в нашей стране не учили. Такой профессии нет.

— Но все-таки учиться лучше до того, как начинать работать.

- Yes, and no. В нашем политическом ландшафте такой возможности нет, особенно у оппозиционных людей. Поэтому нужно учиться по ходу. Нельзя отказываться от этого процесса, не умея делать. Вот появляется ребенок в семье. Где-то учат растить детей? Не учат. Учишься на себе, растишь себя, а не ребенка. Каждый сам, кто прошел какой-то путь, прямо заинтересован в том, чтобы получилось. Это сильный мотиватор, сильный драйвер.

— По итогам выборов по Москве «Единая Россия» даже улучшила свой результат.

— Ничего, зато выбили ЛДПР, выбили коммунистов. Плюс неизвестные люди с нуля стали фактически в Москве второй политической силой. Fine. «Единая Россия» так и так взяла бы большинство, не надо строить иллюзий. Прошли бы по старинке все, как и было, 200 мандатов у каких-нибудь коммунистов, 50 — ЛДПР. Такой же, плюс-минус, результата был бы у «Единой России». Что бы изменилось? Было бы лучше или хуже?

— Было бы так же, как было.

— Да, а сейчас я тебя уверяю: будет по-другому.