Donbass: Territory or people?

Writer Elena Styazhkina about the problem of reintegration of Donbass

Vitaly Portnikov: The reintegration of Donbass is a question that is discussed, first of all, in the legislative plane today. Negotiations between diplomats and officials are noteworthy. And how can this reintegration happen, how real is it? Let's watch the video.

Correspondent: The basic elements of the new approach of Kiev to the reintegration of Donbass are recorded in the law initiated by the President Peter Poroshenko on the state policy of restoring the sovereignty of Ukraine over the temporarily occupied territories of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. " The document also gives an answer to the question: how exactly should the occupied territories be returned? Ukraine relies not on the power, but on the political and diplomatic path of restoring its territorial integrity, which provides, among other things, the international pressure on Russia, which has committed aggression against Ukraine.

Ukraine relies not on the power, but on the political and diplomatic path of restoring its territorial integrity

For the first time in national legislation, the Russian Federation is recognized as an aggressor and an occupier. “Now Ukraine, together with the Europeans,” says Dmitry Tymchuk, deputy of the Verkhovna Rada from the Popular Front , “will prepare the necessary base in order to impose responsibility for the situation in the Donbass and negotiate with him.”

According to the law, Ukraine will use all the possibilities to protect the rights and freedoms of its citizens living in temporarily occupied territories. Kyiv announces assistance in providing their socio-economic needs, restoring humanitarian and cultural ties, providing access to Ukrainian media and national legal assistance. At the same time, Ukraine intends to "form a consolidated claim to Russia regarding its responsibility for aggression."

In addition, a permanent operational headquarters with broad powers is created in the conflict zone for the integrated management of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, all power structures, as well as military-civil administrations.

In fact, the new law forms a new "matrix" of the response of Ukraine to Russian aggression and creates the prerequisites for the de -Ukrainian -smell of territories that have not been controlled by it.

When discussing this topic, many Ukrainian politicians are categorically opposed to holding local elections in certain areas of Donetsk and Lugansk regions (Ordlo), since they, as they note in the Rada, will actually legitimize the power of separatists. The three -year validity of the law on a special procedure for local self -government in the Ordlo, which suggests the election, expired on October 18. On October 6, the Verkhovna Rada extended this law for another year, emphasizing that the electoral process in the Donbass is impossible without the withdrawal of illegal armed groups and military equipment and the receipt of Ukraine to the entire area of the eastern border with Russia. The Ukrainian authorities call the extension of the actions of the old law a key condition for the introduction of the UN peacekeeping mission in the Donbass in the future.

For the first time in national legislation, the Russian Federation is recognized as an aggressor and occupier

Meanwhile, the allegations also sound that, by and large, the Law on reintegration of Ordlo does not contain any fundamentally new approaches, and, most importantly, the strategies for the de-Ukrainian discovery. So, the former representative of Ukraine in the tripartite contact group at negotiations in Minsk in the Donbass, Roman Immortal is convinced that the real reintegration of individual regions of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions is a long -term process with a multi -sized and very voluminous plan, which, unfortunately, does not yet have the Ukrainian authorities.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Guest of our program today is Elena Styazhkina , Ukrainian writer, historian, founder of the public movement "Defocation, Return, Enlightenment" .

Elena Styazhkina: I'm not sure that the current situation can be compared with the Soviet occupation or colonization. However, we know the feudal situation in which the region lived for a long time, and here the term "occupation" can also be applied here, and the understanding of the restriction of this term. Kramatorsk, Slavyansk and Mariupol - a good model of how de -smuggling will occur.

In fact, the de -Ukrainian is already going on. We must see our little and big steps, recognize victories. The models that are today, for example, in Mariupol, will be obviously effective in Donetsk and Lugansk. The methods of action are formed, and they relate to very different subject areas: it can be, say, summer schools, which are carried out by local residents, activists, or methods of pressure on power.

It must be admitted that the feudal hierarchy, a vertical, is quite similar to what was before, remained, but the way of relations between society and power is changing in some way, although not quickly - I would like faster. In 2016, it seemed to us all that a terrible exhaustion would come, and the activists would say at some point: well, everything, we can’t do it anymore. This did not happen, and then the process of changing the rules has gone, which can probably be called irreversible.

Vitaliy Portnikov: We see, on the example of Transnistria, that people have been going from Tiraspol to Chisinau for years, and there are actually no borders between the Republic of Moldova and those territories called the Transnistrian-Moldavian Republic. It is clear that this is not an ideal state, but there are democratic procedures, opposition protests, a change of power, civil society, the punishment of corrupt officials. In Transnistria, a completely different life. It would seem that people who live there should have treated this life with interest, but they continue to live in a completely different space and do not seek that.

I'm not sure that the current situation can be compared with the Soviet occupation or colonization

Elena Styazhkina: I did not clearly express my thought. What is happening in the liberated territories is a model that will act effectively after the withdrawal of the Russian troops and the closure of the Ukrainian border. First of all, this is the answer to the question of what we will do, what are our first steps.

Vitaly Portnikov: Over the years, there was no demarcation of the population? A large number of people left, and it was not just an active population, but people who were ready to live in Ukraine. This is not to say that these people live very sweet here (you, I think, know this from their own experience), nevertheless, they left. Some people-there are also a large number of them-decided that they want to live in Russia, and went there. The population remains with a distinctly expressed regional consciousness.

Elena Styazhkina: There are very different people. Many people take a forced position. For example, it is impossible to solve the situation with sick parents, this is a matter of conscience, then it will be impossible to live with this. One of my close friend in Donetsk feeds a whole street of eight lonely old people and will live there as much as necessary. He says: someone should be here to meet the Ukrainian army with flowers. We will not say that such people living there, believing that Ukraine will return soon, are dreamers, and we will always support them.

In fact, the dectation is already going on

We have such a symbolic character, a real person or, perhaps, even a group of people who are called “fascist Donetsk” or “Adolf Donetsk”. He always talks about what is happening in the city, says: you can’t imagine what it is to be a patriot of Ukraine and wait for it in Donetsk, this is a little different; Please remember that we are here and there are a lot of us, and ask our military about what we are doing here. And then we will ask our military.

Vitaly Portnikov: I think if the territories of the Donetsk and Luhansk region are really reintegrated into Ukraine with the participation of the Ukrainian army, then your friends who will come out with flowers will be lost in the crowds of current supporters of the people's republics. You cannot deny the presence of people in these territories who support the current situation, or those who would like it to be replaced by the Russian status of these territories.

Elena Styazhkina: Parisians also showed a love for Hitler, and it was a big problem. They really chose this path. De Gaulle said the famous phrase: “France freed itself”, which was completely inconsistent with reality, but at that time it was their formula for historical amnesia. Not the best option.

Elena Styazhkina

We cannot say that people in the occupied territories make a completely conscious choice. When the Kalashnikov assault ribs rest on your ribs, your choice becomes very small (and if you are threatened by your child, then it is already completely impossible). From the peaceful city of Kyiv, we cannot give an assessment of what is happening there. You know, when the people who went to the referendum yesterday will enter the embroideries to meet the Ukrainian army, I will be glad, even if this choice will be formal at first. Speaking about de -Ukrainian and Slavyansk, we are working on content, but let there be a form. We can, we can already, we are already doing this. It is very important to understand.

Vitaliy Portnikov: And you are not afraid that, saying: “Yes, of course, this will all end soon,” you are to some extent providing your friends with a bearish service?

Elena Styazhkina: Yes, of course, we talk a lot about this: a broken hope is scary.

In the territories of Donbass, which are under Ukrainian control, voters vote completely differently than in the rest of the country

Vitaly Portnikov: I remember very well people who lived in the Baltic countries, I talked with them in the 70-80s, and they sincerely believed that the occupation of the Baltic countries by the Soviet Union would end sooner or later. Someone waited, but someone-no.

Elena Styazhkina: It was thanks to their efforts to the country of the Baltic states that they became. This is a matter of choice.

Vitaly Portnikov: It is worth remembering: while you fill this form with the content, people who will meet the Ukrainian army in embroideries today, the next day they will go to the electoral urns and vote for that political program that will be closer to them. And, perhaps, this will not be the program that involves the development of Ukraine in isolation from Russia. By the way, this is also happening in those territories of Donbass, which are now under Ukrainian control: there voters vote completely differently than in the rest of the country.

Elena Styazhkina: This is our general Ukrainian risk: a voter who can vote for us to get up again and start traveling in a circle. Whatever we are technological and beautiful, technologies are very important, the legislation is very important, but the artist draws the picture with small seams, which ultimately become a sewn field. Deconcation is manual work, and people do it.

To understand what kind of Donetsk or Luhansk is you need to know what the project is "For Live!" - This is when Ukrainian writers, artists, poets travel to front -line territories, talk to people. As a rule, these are not very large communities. After such a meeting, writer Victoria Amelina received a note: "We love you very much."

Handmade is always about love. The people who make it are ascetics. In a situation of unbelief, infinite infinite, panic moods that often broadcast the Ukrainian media, get up, pull themselves by the hair and others next to you, and do it every day - in my opinion, this is no less heroism than the heroism of our warriors at the front. This means every day to take a step to ensure that freedom and love are more, and there are less stupid things and bondage.

Vitaliy Portnikov: We are discussing the de -Ukrainian situation in the sense that the Ukrainian army will come, and we will throw flowers into the carriages. But there is another model of integration: there is no army, but there is a scheme that is gradually being carried out today: the West moves Russia to bring its troops, replacing them with the UN peacekeeping forces - Russian troops, along with the so -called corps of the people's republics, go out, and there are no Ukrainian forces there and not. There is a process that we saw in a number of regions of the world: it seems to be Ukraine, only without Ukrainian presence. And here is the question of how this de-Ukraice will be carried out in a situation where the local population will depend not on the Ukrainian and not on the Russian president, but on some UN Commissioner in the conflict territory.

Deoccupation is a manual work, and people do it

Elena Styazhkina: We are talking about specific things - this is a manual work. What people in the disconed territories at this moment turn out to be a place of power, a place of the future? For example, this friend of mine, who fed old people. Such people who are there are a symbol of the future, now they know how to continue, now their steps determine the steps of their circle of communication. Most importantly, the idea of the future is now on the side of Ukraine and those who are waiting for Ukraine. The project of the so -called republics ended, with the introduction of peacekeepers, this will become a distinct past.

Vitaly Portnikov: If they are introduced.

Elena Styazhkina: Of course.

Vitaly Portnikov: In your opinion, we can assume that these wonderful selfless people will be local power. And we can assume that the local force will be those who have money for infrastructure projects and assistance to the population, as often it was in the history of the region? It can be the oligarchs: Rinat Akhmetov showed how it happens. It can be different public organizations that Russia will finance is much cheaper than financing militants: some humanitarian organizations "Russia with you" or "Russian world with you." Come - you will receive humanitarian help, clothes, books - you can come up with a lot.

Elena Styazhkina: We do not really believe that Russia will have, what to give. But we also understand this problem a little wider, because not only the oligarchs, not only local feudal lords, will be a wider, more European story, will invest in re-equipment (this is a more accurate word for the Donetsk and Luhansk region). Thus, we have a field of competition for this money, and in parallel, the field of competition for ideas and choice. Ultimately, European money is the same money as Russian.

Vitaly Portnikov: If they are in this situation.

Elena Styazhkina: Our European colleagues say that projects are ready, that they will independently control all this re -use.

Vitaly Portnikov: In general, Ukraine can restore the Donbass without the West?

Perhaps the power of our selfless people will be supported by European re -equipment projects

Elena Styazhkina: I think not. The question is that there should now be another infrastructure. He can and should be re -enveloped. I think this will be interesting for European capital: its capabilities, its labor and climatic resource in terms of some projects are interesting now. And competition is always good. Perhaps the power of our selfless people will be supported by European re -equipment projects, and they are always more sympathetic than the restoration of mines. A business project that Tsuckerberg or Ilon Musk offers us today, for the future always looks a little appetizing. I think we can handle it.

Vitaliy Portnikov: You are not afraid that quite many Ukrainian politicians offer to abandon these territories at all: in their opinion, there are strangers, other people's values, and the fact that we are trying to return them is more likely to be inhibiting the Ukrainian future, which helps to build the state.

Elena Styazhkina: It hurts me very much ... Probably, it is also painful for those good people who offer it. Politicians are trading, we do not discuss this, but there are a lot of decent people who sometimes proclaim about the same thing. I understand that an injury speaks in them in the same way as in me. I respect other people's injuries, I know how the pain says. If it does not shout, it will be like in France. Let this be said, let it be in the debate of the discussion, let it hurt us, but we will sew it and we will not wear suspicion of each other and unspoken pain. We already played in Soviet times in this unspoken pain, in this injury, and there were no words to talk about it.

Vitaly Portnikov: Maybe, first of all, there was simply no desire?

Elena Styazhkina: And this is too. But sometimes we do not have enough dictionary to say that then it traumated so. I think this is a growth disease, and we will overcome it. And we will not cut off those regions that vote for buckwheat, those cities in which we have chosen the wrong mayors. Unfortunately, in Ukraine there are a lot of them.

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that if there is a de -capacity of the territories of Donbass, the people who left these territories will return there?

For many, a meeting with the Russian world, Russian invaders forever destroyed confidence in the world

Elena Styazhkina: Not all. Для многих встреча с русским миром, русскими оккупантами и коллаборантами внутри Донецка и Луганска навсегда разрушила доверие к миру, и оно не может восстановиться. Возвратиться невозможно. Это вопрос даже не личной безопасности, для многих это вопрос безопасности детей. Здесь нельзя осуждать или пожимать плечами: люди сделали очень тяжелый выбор.

Я знаю многих людей, которые в силу возраста, профессии или здоровья не смогли пойти на фронт и ужасно мучаются, что не проявили любви к Украине. Они говорят: пусть то, что мы можем сделать потом, будет нашим фронтом, мы по разным причинам не можем воевать, но можем учить, лечить, делать стартапы, и мы готовы приехать туда вместо тех, кто уже не хочет или не может приехать. "Это мой долг, – говорит один очень приличный человек, – это моя обязанность, и я это сделаю". Услышав об этом впервые, я подумала, что вижу святого, но теперь я часто это слышу.