Who is the authority for Ukrainians?

Who influences citizens after the Maidan? On air Ukrainian human rights activist Semyon Gluzman

Vitaly Portnikov: How does Ukrainian society change after the Maidan? How much can we say that the post -Soviet time ends and society is growing up? We are talking about all this today with a guest who began to serve this society even when he, in fact, was not. To begin with, we bring to your attention the plot of dissident traffic in Ukraine.

Correspondent: Ukraine is in search of moral authorities that can decisively act and take responsibility. There are no figures of the scale in the country as the Soviet academician Andrei Sakharov or the Czech leader Vaclav Gavel.

Even at the dawn of Ukrainian independence, the role of moral authorities tried to take on dissidents led by Vyacheslav Chornovol . They gathered at the squares of Ukrainian cities by many thousands of rallies, but for various reasons they could not become nationwide leaders.

Ukraine is in search of moral authorities that can decisively act and take responsibility

The leading figures of Ukrainian society are now only politicians, businessmen, show business figures and athletes. The death of the former head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics of the Beatitude Lyubomyr Guzar was a great loss for Ukraine. He enjoyed great respect not only among believers, but also among Ukrainians far from religion. The departure of Lyubomir Guzar only emphasized a huge shortage of consolidating moral authorities in the country.

Now Ukrainian society needs more than ever personalities who are able to unite the country and return Ukrainians to genuine values. “We must return to the law and to the truth that we do not have and in Soviet times were prohibited and equated with“ dangerous dreams, ”said the Ukrainian philosopher, writer and dissident Evgeny Sverstyuk in one of his interviews in 2014.

Two years ago, the Ukrainian magazine "New Time" published a list of almost two dozen Ukrainians, whose actions and words, according to an authoritative expert group, cause unconditional respect and support of compatriots. The key positions in this list were taken by: writer and poetess Lina Kostenko, human rights activist Miroslav Marinovich , president of the Ukrainian Catholic University Boris Gudzyak, soldiers and volunteers, as well as psychiatrist Semen Gluzman and the leader of the Crimean Tatars Mustafa Dzhemilev.

With rare exceptions, many of those whom Ukrainians want to see their moral authorities avoid publicity, and in fact their influence on society is minimized. One of the attempts to find a site for discussions for such people was the creation six years ago, on the 20th anniversary of the referendum on the independence of Ukraine, the Group of the First of December. She united authoritative public and religious figures, scientists, former Soviet dissidents. In addition to the already mentioned personalities, it also included: philosopher Miroslav Popovich, literary critic Ivan Dziuba, academics Boris Paton and Igor Yukhnovsky, dissident Levko Lukyanenko. The purpose of the “first of December” was the formation of the free people of Ukraine, united by common spiritual values and capable of creating a moral policy, fair economy and social good ”, and the members of the group called populism by the real threat of Ukrainian statehood.

Now Ukrainian society needs more than ever personalities who are able to unite the country

However, the activities of those who can be called the conscience of the nation and its moral authorities rarely find themselves in the epicenter of the public and the media. After two Maidans, the country continues to live according to the rules established by a small group of politicians and oligarchs. It is obvious that only a person who can deploy the state towards genuine values and ideals can change such a situation. Among the Ukrainian intelligentsia, they believe that there are such personalities in Ukraine, but society does not want to notice them.

Vitaly Portnikov: The guest of our current broadcast is the Ukrainian dissident, president of the Association of Psychiatrists of Ukraine, public activist Semen Gluzman .

Why does Ukrainian society do not have moral or moral authorities before and after the Maidan, which, as a rule, accompanies such events? Something similar was in Ukraine in 2004. There were political authorities, but this is something else.

Semen Gluzman: We are just learning democracy, this is a difficult and long process. In addition, our politicians, in the opinion of the layman, do everything possible so that fresh faces do not appear next to them. In general, I think that we had one moral authority - Guzar, there were no others.

Vitaly Portnikov: But was he a national moral authority? This is a Greek Catholic priest.

Semen Gluzman: I am not a parishioner of his church. At the funeral, I stood in line, and there were a lot of people who spoke Russian. People came to pay tribute to the man whom they respected, some loved.

Immediately the problem is not only in moral authorities, but even in the desire of the people of Ukraine to follow some samples. But there should be samples for this, but there are practically no them. And this is very bad.

Vitaly Portnikov: Does it not scare you that as the only moral authority, you call a person who spent his whole conscious life outside Ukraine?

Semen Gluzman: No, does not scare. Maybe he was therefore such a moral authority that he grew up a free person there, in Catholic monasteries. I know him, my friend very often went to him, interviewed him, now he is preparing a book. Yes, he was a high priest, but at the same time - a man of the world. And you know, a touching thing - it will be in her book. He is a monk, never had a family. When he appeared in Lviv, he complained to her: "I would like to be invited to visit, no one would ever call me." He wanted communication, he is an ordinary person. He did not preach from the amvon, but was among us.

Honestly, I think that we have somewhat moved away from those stigmata that were given to us by the Soviet regime. Despite all my pessimism (I am writing very sad, dreary speakers), I am very sorry that Ukrainians received much more than they used at the moment. The Lord God is really to us, fate gave democratic possibilities. The first diplomats who came here were in love with Ukraine. And we, despite material difficulties, saw something ahead. And now it is something very gloomy.

Vitaly Portnikov: Maybe the opposite is the contrary? Indeed, in the 90s, most of your compatriots associated the proclamation of independence with material well-being.

We are just learning democracy, this is a difficult and long process

Semen Gluzman: But this was also in other countries, in most Soviet republics: people wanted to live better.

There was such an American ambassador Miller, and once he asked me: "Listen, why are you so different from Belarusians?" At first I did not understand, and there, after all, the Old Man came to power. "You are almost the same, everything is close to you, and the languages are close, and culture, and so on." I told him: “You know, about 30 or 40% of people in the political zones where I was - these were Ukrainians. They were all intellectuals and deep moral people, but different. GB took away according to a completely different criteria, but not a single Belarusian and not a single Kyrgyz was everywhere.”

So, it was and was (it was for sure, but about it - I don’t know) the enzyme of resistance, but we could not use it - maybe because our not very moral and not very smart politicians hyperoprodist, or maybe because we were not recalled. In any case, then I had much more optimism.

Semen Gluzman

When it was about independence, I, of course, voted in a referendum as it should be voted by a normal person, but I had a fear of the future of Ukraine, because I knew: the Ukrainian Soviet KGB was the most tough, like many other things that I survived: for example, anti -Semitism ... And suddenly it turned out that the Soviet government left, state anti -Semitism left, in general, it became completely different, and it was great!

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that the Maidan of 2013-14 is not a resistance enzyme?

Semen Gluzman: This is the result of the resistance enzyme.

Vitaly Portnikov: And the volunteers who went to war?

Semen Gluzman: Volunteers are now returning, and most of the society does not really accept them and understands them. They are healthy people, they react normally to the abnormal psychological situation. But why do we have several people who returned from there in every psychiatric hospital? What, psychiatrists are diagnosed with schizophrenia? No. Nowhere to go because there are no social services. People return home, they saw blood, death. It is necessary to prepare people, as is done in all civilized countries. And our wise professors, who defended the dissertations, say: we need to open a couple more sanatoriums. But they will drink there. They need to return to families.

Vitaly Portnikov: During this conflict was a country that lived a peaceful life, and there was a war. These two things, like butter and water, were not connected in the minds of so many people, maybe even the professors that you are talking about.

Volunteers are returning, and most of the society does not really accept them and understands them

Semen Gluzman: Yes, but there is another thing: there are a lot of imitators. I remember Chernobyl and the time after Chernobyl-it was a different situation, but in some ways similar. Then I worked in the clinic with a pediatrician and I remember how it sounded: "Mommy, this is as a result of small doses of radiation." The state pretends that this does not concern him. I see what is being done in the Ministry of Health, what is being done around. I'm not talking about other issues, only about the attitude to these peasants who might not go there.

Vitaly Portnikov: You uttered an important word - "imitation".

Semen Gluzman: Everything is very bitter and scary, but on the other hand, there are ethers. Recently I was invited to army radio and television. Together with military psychologists, I broadcast for the guys who are there. The host admitted to me that they started talking about it for the first time. I said all the time: guys, whatever you are, you are healthy people, you do not have a diagnosis of PTSR . This is complete nonsense, but the deputies also pronounce it. Suprun is going to open some kind of assistance center, and since this is a medical center, it means psychiatrists. What does psychiatrists have to do with it?

I often speak and talk about it very hard, but they do not pursue me either the SBU or the Ministry of Internal Affairs. In this sense, we have already defeated our past. But bitterness and resentment is that it could be much better.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Democracy and freedom of speech is not when you perform, but when it can take effect on society and power.

Semen Gluzman: You can say, but it is difficult to be heard in our country. But you can still speak.

Vitaly Portnikov: So, in Ukraine there was a huge cohort of dissidents who returned from the camps by people respected society, from the late 80s, early 90s, participated in political processes, became deputies, and not just at the outskirts, like many dissidents in Russia.

Semen Gluzman: But what is over?

Vitaly Portnikov: The main thing is why?

Semen Gluzman: People were disappointed and no longer chose. I know why. It turned out that to fight the Soviet government, to write so -called slanderous texts against it and declare hunger strikes is not at all what the state is building. The vast majority of us in this sense turned out to be inexpressible. I did not go into politics, although they called me, and Marinovich did not go. And those who went are not bad or good people, they just turned out to be insolvent as builders. There were bricks, but they did not know how to fold them. Therefore, the communist majority managed to very quickly put up the "order".

Vitaly Portnikov: Many representatives of the majority became just the most ardent builders of the state, of which radical nationalists and post -communists turned out.

Semen Gluzman: They now protect the Ukrainian language, only protect from themselves ...

Vitaliy Portnikov: But on the other hand, this is perhaps such a natural period when the state is not built at the expense of any gap with the past, but due to the fact that it simply perceives this past as a natural part of freedom?

You can speak, but it is difficult to be heard in our country

Semen Gluzman: You are absolutely right. Nevertheless, we live here, we live today.

I have good contacts with the SBU archival management, I helped issue books, magazines. A historical magazine appeared, we had our own printing house, our publishing house "Sphere". In Moscow, at that time, a “memorial” issued such literature, and here - the leadership of the SBU. This is also that we are already different from each other.

But today the SBU is a little different. It has become much more corrupt.

Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, everyone is fighting corruption, but she does not go anywhere.

Semen Gluzman: They are not fighting her - this is a Nanai struggle. Remember how allegedly two little boys fought in the palace of the congresses, and then it turned out that it was uncle. These are diseases of the past, it is clear that we must get sick of this - this is like childhood illnesses, you can’t do anything here. But, it seems to me, we could live better.

Vitaly Portnikov: What are you talking about, first of all: about the tendency or speed?

Semen Gluzman: There is a tendency. This is Lenin - a step forward, two steps ago. The most famous American politician who was here at that time said: you have a great time. The war has already begun, Crimea was busy. This is a great time for changes. Many of us also understood that it was at this time that it was necessary to make reforms, but for real, and not as it happens. This famous politician said: "If this goes on, if your president and his environment will behave this way, then we will probably move away from you, and you will be left alone with Putin. We really do not want it, but this may happen." I remember this every day.

Vitaly Portnikov: Here the question is who is more interested in supporting each other.

Semen Gluzman: I am interested. It turns out that some American politicians are more interested in most Ukrainian politicians. And I understand that this is not a love for Ukraine or for Ukrainian history - it is just a big geopolitics. They understand that they are forced to support us.

Vitaly Portnikov: So you say that the fight against corruption is a certain struggle of Nanai boys. But I will remind you that this was not the moment of a public request. For real reforms, a public request is required. Ukrainian society has always lived in such corrupt relations. Now, at least, some Ukrainians have a request to fight corruption at the top, but not yet in the bottoms.

Semen Gluzman: Not at the top, but in the middle layer. At the top, everything is fine with them.

Vitaly Portnikov: I'm talking about ordinary people. Now, if you ask what is worried about an ordinary person: they would like officials to not steal? .. The person himself does not think that he gives bribes, he would be more convenient for him, he would like it to remain, but the officials should not steal - perhaps this is a step forward.

SBU has become much more corrupt

Semen Gluzman: But I want to begin with the environment of the president. And the surnames are known to journalists (you wrote about this).

Vitaly Portnikov: For this, structures that will provide evidence should also be used, and will not eat conversations in the media.

Semen Gluzman: We understand where we live. There is these evidence. Once upon a time, at the very beginning of statehood, one of the high officers of the SBU Office told me: "We know everything, because now everything is carried out through electronic banking circuits."

Vitaliy Portnikov: That is, you want to say that there may still be an electoral struggle with corruption. If everything is known about everyone and everyone are participants, then by and large, with such a public request, you can safely fight those who you do not like. You will name some surnames, and I will be others.

Semen Gluzman: So this, unfortunately, is happening. Let's hope that someday another time will come. Although one both of yours and my acquaintance, the most famous economist, said when we drank tea in his kitchen: "It is impossible to deal with corruption, because we will destroy the economy."

Vitaly Portnikov: Of course, if the economy is being built for corruption, and now you will make people honestly pay taxes ...

Semen Gluzman: Nevertheless, it is clear that it is necessary to fight corruption, or rather, it should be prevented. To do this, you do not need to receive the Nobel Prize, you just need to make a decision for yourself, and not from below.

For real reforms, a public request is necessary

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that a certain change of generations occurred? At least now the bulk of Ukrainian politicians or officials are not the people who went through the party apparatus, although some went through Komsomolsky.

Semen Gluzman: I work mainly in medicine - with medical apparatchiks, with the main doctors - and I see how this shift occurred. This is very pleasing to me. I'm not talking about corruption in the system, because this is also forced. Если врач получает 1300 гривен, то, конечно, он возьмет подарки, а некоторые будут еще и требовать, но не все.

Почему у меня очень часто идет инвектива в сторону Супрун и ее команды? Я знаю украинских ребят и девочек по 40 с небольшим лет, которые могли бы быть прекрасными министрами, и это не обязательно врачи – экономисты, юристы, и некоторые когда-то уже попробовали этот хлеб и накололись, а некоторые не попробовали. They are. И почему Порошенко их не видит и не знает – вот это мне очень горько и обидно.

Виталий Портников: Но это же не вопрос президента – это вопрос, как можно назначить правительство в правительстве. Я думаю, очень многие украинские и даже российские радиослушатели не знают, что в Украине нет министра здравоохранения, а есть исполняющий обязанности. Госпожа Супрун оказалась тем мужественным человеком, который согласился стать исполняющим обязанности министра в ситуации, когда парламент никого не смог или не захотел назначить. Это совершенно удивительная история: никто не захотел брать на себя ответственность, и не нашлось ни одного человека, который смог бы пройти через парламентское голосование.

Семен Глузман: Это не совсем так. Там уже был исполняющий обязанности – господин Шафранский, который действительно мог бы… И там было взаимопонимание с Комитетом, поддержка медицинской общественности.

Виталий Портников: Значит, чьей-то поддержки не было?

Семен Глузман: Не было поддержки других людей, которые принимали решение. Как мне недавно сказал по телефону один близкий к Порошенко человек: "Вы ошибаетесь, Супрун – это не выбор Порошенко, это другие".

Vitaly Portnikov: Perhaps. Я говорю не о персоналиях, а о том, как сложно выстраивать все эти взаимоотношения во власти.

Семен Глузман: Давайте хотя бы начнем выстраивать. Они же все решают где-то в тайных кабинетах, минуя нас. Это не значит, что нужно слушать меня или каких-то коррупционных академиков, псевдоученых, но хотя бы посоветуйтесь, все равно принимать решение будете вы. И это касается не только Минздрава.

Главное – недостаток взаимного доверия между властью и обществом

Виталий Портников: Конечно, просто Минздрав – это яркий пример, именно потому, что во всех остальных министерствах хотя бы есть полноценные, утвержденные парламентом министры.

Семен Глузман: Он же боится ее выдвигать.

Виталий Портников: Получается, что сначала надо принять какие-то меры в медицине, и только потом голосовать за министра, а не наоборот. И тут мы вновь возвращаемся к тому вопросу, с которого начали нашу программу: это недостаток взаимного доверия между властью и обществом.

Семен Глузман: Причем это доверие возникало дважды: после первого и после второго Майдана. Может быть, оно не было таким доверием, о котором мы говорим сегодня. Может быть, это было не доверие, а ожидание. Но я тоже ходил на Майдан и помню, как на трибуне стояли эти три наших великих политика, а снизу им кричали: "Уходите". Они не уходили.

Виталий Портников: Потому что по большому счету им некуда было идти.

Семен Глузман: Они остались, и теперь они наши руководители. There is nothing to be done. В Украине, вероятно, надо очень долго жить и каждый день делать зарядку, чтобы дожить до других времен.