Ukraine is Europe. But is it soon?

On the air of the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine on European and Euro-Atlantic Integration Ivanna Klimpush-Tsintsadze

Vitaly Portnikov: European integration of Ukraine is one of the most important and most difficult issues of the country's development. This is a question that has determined the slogans of the Euromaidan 2013-2014, and all the subsequent actions of the Ukrainian authorities and society. How does this process develop? Let's see the plot prepared by Vladimir Ivakhnenko .

Ukraine membership in the European Union and NATO is a strategic goal of the state

Vladimir Ivakhnenko: The membership of Ukraine in the European Union and NATO is a strategic goal of the state, which, as its leadership recognizes, cannot be achieved in the coming years. Nevertheless, President Petro Poroshenko at the end of 2017 announced in the near future referendums on the issues of Ukraine’s entry into the EU and the North Atlantic Union. However, in Brussels they do not give Kyiv any promises regarding the prospects of European and Euro -Atlantic integration. And the words of Poroshenko about the conduct of the relevant plebiscites Ukrainian politicians and experts are considered only in the context of his preparation for the next presidential campaign.

Corruption remains on the way of European integration of Ukraine with a stumbling block. She was the main problem in the era of the reign of the second President Leonid Kuchma and gained even larger scale during the presidency of Viktor Yanukovych, who fled after Euromaidan to Russia. But even almost four years after the “revolution of dignity” and the change of power, corruption still impedes the development of Ukraine, turning into one of the threats of national security.

The visa -free regime with the European Union and the Association Agreement with the EU has entered into force on September 11 - key to Ukraine - key Euro -integration results for the past year. But already in the last month of 2017, there was a threat of loss of visa-free regime. The reason is the attack of the Ukrainian authorities on independent and supported by Western institutions of anti -corruption bodies, including the National Anti -Corruption Bureau.

Corruption remains on the way of European integration of Ukraine with a stumbling block

In an interview with the Internet publication, European Pravda, the Ambassador of France to Kyiv Isabelle Dumon said: "The EU is shocked not only to attempts to undermine the independence of anti-corruption organs, but also with the indifference of Ukrainian politicians to the inevitable strict reaction of the West."

The December report of the European Commission emphasizes that Ukraine, although it continues to comply with the criteria for visa liberalization, should make more efforts to overcome corruption. In particular, Brussels called on Kyiv to create a specialized anti -corruption court.

According to the calculations of the Ukrainian Center for European Policy, from the tasks of the agreement with the EU on the Association in 2017, the government of Vladimir Groysman managed to fulfill only 11%. Despite the fact that Ukraine has been growing trading with the European Union for the second year in a row, there are still many questions regarding the structure of its export. The situation can change the situation provided for in the Association of Reforms and large -scale investments. However, including due to the armed conflict in the Donbass, Western investors are in no hurry to invest their money in the Ukrainian economy.

Now on the agenda of the relationship of Kyiv and Brussels - the accession of Ukraine to the European customs and energy unions, the Unified digital market, as well as the association with the Schengen zone. “Sectoral integration will actually turn the eastern borders of Ukraine into the EU boundaries even before we join the European Union de jure,” President Petro Poroshenko is convinced.

At the last, fifth summit of Eastern partnership in Brussels, the Ukrainian leader agreed with the Europeans on the new macrofinance assistance for almost two billion euros. But due to the lack of real results of the fight against corruption, the international financial support of Ukraine can be suspended both from the EU and from the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

On the agenda - the accession of Ukraine to European customs and energy unions, a single digital market

Last summer, the heads of the European Commission, despite the persistent calls of the Ukrainian authorities, refused to make a phrase on the prospects for the country's membership in the European Union to the joint statement of the Kyiv summit of Ukraine. Since then, the Belgian capital states that the Association does not give Ukraine any guarantees of joining the European Union in the future. However, most Ukrainians are optimistic. As the latest public opinion polls show, about 69% of Ukrainian citizens would like to see their country as part of the European community.

Vitaly Portnikov: Guest of our program today is the Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine on European and Euro-Atlantic Integration Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze .

In 2017, in the end, a real event occurred, which convinced the inhabitants of Ukraine that integration really was happening - a visa -free regime of Ukraine and the European Union appeared. For many years they said that it would never be, in Russia it was also believed that Ukrainians would not be allowed into Europe. But they let them go. This is a real result, or maybe it simply does not matter much for the inhabitants of Ukraine?

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: I am convinced that this is a really real result. We remember that here, in Ukraine, we said that this would never happen. There were voices that said: why is Ukraine visa -free, if people cannot afford to use it? These myths are broken by today's statistics, the number of people who have already taken advantage of visa -free.

Visovis happened because Ukraine made a lot of internal changes, a serious way of reform has come. The farther, the more people in Ukraine use the possibilities of visa -free and appreciate what we managed to achieve.

Vitaly Portnikov: On the other hand, when there was a European football championship, and a large number of airports were built in the country, I said to the then leaders of Ukraine: it is very good that you are building airports, but if there is no visa -free sky, then people will not use these airports, they will have nowhere to go.

The situation with this open air lasts years. It turns out that people who really can enter Europe simply by a biometric passport enter the bus, because there are practically no cheap airlines that all Europeans use to move around the continent, except for a couple.

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: This discussion has been going on for many years and is not advancing to the decision not through the fault of Ukraine. For our part, we are ready to join the Treaty on the Open Sky, but, alas, now we are resting in a contradictory question about the status of Gibraltar (between Spain and Great Britain). Unfortunately, it is the fact that the UK began negotiations on leaving the European Union, now complicates the solution to this problem. Of course, we will continue this conversation with the European Union, but alas, he rests against bilateral relations between his two members, and not what Ukraine did or did not do.

Ukraine has made a lot of internal changes, a serious way of reform has gone

Another part of the answer to this question is the possibility of opening additional airlines, but here in Ukraine there is no market. We are trying to work on this, and the Ministry of Infrastructure in Ukraine should open opportunities for the appearance of cheaper airlines. Some of them are already present in the Ukrainian market. Over time, I think everything will work out, and the prices for air travel will be the same as for bus trips, which we see in Europe.

Vitaly Portnikov: In your practice, there were enough situations when you saw that the European Union defends its interests and does not take into account the Ukrainian ones? We thought they would help, but, it turns out, they don’t really want to ...

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: At the current stage, we can finally conduct a subject dialogue with the European Union on various issues that interest us. This is a difficult process. But at the same time, if we conduct this conversation reasonedly, if we have specific facts, understanding of processes and suggestions, how to solve a particular problem, then in most cases we usually manage to achieve the desired result.

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze

I am surprised why Europe can not get tired of Russia

We see that there is a rather complicated discussion regarding, for example, the Nord Stream - 2, which absolutely contradicts the interests of Ukraine and is not an economically justified project, but rather a political project of the Russian Federation. Many businesses in the European Union are trying to influence their governments to allow the construction of this project. We see different approaches to this issue, they exacerbate the discussion on this subject in the European Union.

Vitaly Portnikov: How would you comment on such a common phrase, equally popular both in Ukrainian and Russian media, that Europe is tired of Ukraine?

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: I am surprised why Europe can not get tired of the Russian Federation. This is a very simplified idea of the situation about a certain fatigue of Europe from Ukraine. Of course, many politicians are interested in ensuring that some problems are gone by themselves so that this does not become an additional task for them. But, at the same time, they understand that without solving these problems that concern, for example, Russia's aggression against Ukraine, the European Union in normal mode will not be able to move on, so we must take responsibility, make some decisions-perhaps not always the easiest. But this is not a matter of fatigue - this is a question, possibly, to pursue such a long -term policy of primary unpreparedness. It seemed to everyone that this could be solved quickly. As we see, while the issue is not resolved, and not at all because someone is tired of Ukraine.

Vitaly Portnikov: In Ukraine, too, everyone wanted all this to be fast.

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: Alas, in early 2014 it seemed that we would be able to return respect for international law from the Russian Federation. But, unfortunately, this does not happen. Despite the sanctions, despite the unified and holistic policy pursued by the countries of the European Union and North America, the result that we all counted on is reached.

Ukraine turns into a problem country for Europe itself

Vitaly Portnikov: But, on the other hand, Ukraine turns into a problem country for Europe itself - this is a country with unresolved territorial problems, with an open hybrid war with Russia. In such a situation, Europeans can ask you: how much was she in Europe?

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: It seems to me that among the politicians of the European Union are much more understanding that this hybrid war is happening not only with Ukraine-they are also part of the hybrid attacks of Russia. And they were not ready for the fact that such hybrid attacks would be carried out on their territory. They are still looking for how to answer it, how to effectively protect themselves and pursue a deterrence policy. We see different answers, starting with the fact that NATO strengthens its position in the countries of Eastern Europe. We see how the European Union forms additional internal tasks relative to a stronger defense union. We see this in the field of information policy, and in the field of cyber protection, and so on.

It is wrong to say that Ukraine is not interesting for Europe, because Europe perfectly understands: it is precisely due to the fact that Ukraine today holds the eastern flank against Russian aggression, Europe has the opportunity to reflect this, make important decisions, because all this needs time. We see how they gradually gain unity, despite the fact that there are different forces inside countries that periodically ask questions provoked by the same Russian Federation.

Vitaly Portnikov: In November last year, Armenia signed an agreement on a comprehensive and expanded partnership with the European Union. It turned out that in principle, such a model is possible that you can have an agreement with the European Union and at the same time be as Armenia, a member of the Eurasian Economic Union. Therefore, the question arises: why couldn't Ukraine, why did the Ukrainian association agreement led to such a sharp breakdown of relations with Russia? Maybe both sides did not have enough will to negotiate?

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: There are several myths. Indeed, Armenia signed an agreement on partnership, but this agreement of approximately the type of type, for many years had been negotiating on the Association Agreement with the European Union, of course, leading to a deeper interaction in terms of introducing the legislation of the European Union and the requirements for various internal procedures in different sectors in Ukraine, which will give us the opportunity to be more competitive and in the markets of the European Union, and on the European Union, and on the European Union, and on third markets. This is the stage of relations that Ukraine was interested in having with the European Union ten years ago or even more.

Conflicts with the neighbors of Ukraine in the West were added to the hybrid war with Russia

As for the coordination of economic interests, here Ukraine is very correct, diplomatically for a year and a half tried to go to analyze all the economic concern of Russia from the point of view of the signing of the Association Agreement with the European Union. And these rounds of negotiations took place between the European Union, Ukraine and Russia. Actually, we went to meet our European partners, who insisted on still hearing Russia. And everyone himself was convinced that throughout all these rounds of negotiations it was not about any economic interests, but about political pressure, political manipulations associated simply with Russia's unwillingness to accept the fact that Ukraine will interact more economically with the European Union and transform inside in order to be stronger and more successful. And in these negotiations a point was set.

Vitaly Portnikov: Conflicts with the neighbors of Ukraine in the West were added to the hybrid war with Russia: with Hungary and Romania - in connection with the Law on Education, with Poland - on the issue of historical memory. I very often notice that Russian and Ukrainian politicians comment on Poland’s policy in almost the same expressions. If you take a quote from President Putin at his final press conference and see some statements by Ukrainian politicians regarding Poland, then this is just tracing paper. And this is a completely new quality of relations, anxious for all those who would like Ukraine to have a good relationship with the countries of Central Europe. In the end, these are countries of the European Union, the closest not only neighbors, but also the allies of Ukraine in European integration.

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: I would not want to call the conflicts of the discussion (and sometimes quite sharp) with our Western neighbors. Sometimes this is a serious misunderstanding of each other, sometimes the unpreparedness to hear each other, but not a conflict. Of course, this is the reaction of our neighbors to the fact that Ukraine shows more readiness to protect its interests and value principles that are important to it. In addition, it is irresponsible from politicians to discuss and interpret any historical events. We had so many manipulations with our history, so many not fully analyzed events and facts that God himself ordered us to provide maximum opportunities so that our historians write new monographs, investigate all this, had access to archival documents that they did not have during the Soviet Union.

I think that the discussions will continue, but on both sides there will be enough wisdom to proceed from our common interests, so that we continue to be allies and on this basis they build our further relations.

Vitaly Portnikov: I personally in the story of the Law on Education was not even disturbed by the position of Hungary and Romania. The question arose how really the interests of minorities in Ukraine itself were really taken into account, how much they were listened to, how ready they were to understand their concern. After all, minorities and their rights are part of European integration. All European countries went through an understanding of the need to respect the interests of minorities.

The European Union has different practice regarding national minorities

Ivanna Klimpush-Tsinetsadze: The European Union has different practice regarding national minorities. We know an example of the same France that did not even ratify the Convention on the protection of regional languages and languages of national minorities. In the legislation of France, even such a thing as a "national minority" is absent.

The most important thing is that this law was really discussed with representatives of national minorities, but it has undergone certain changes at the moment when he was already adopted in the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. Поэтому когда наши соседи начали задавать какие-то вопросы или проявлять недовольство, мы инициативно подали этот закон на экспертизу Венецианской комиссии. Я рада, что Венецианская комиссия в своих рекомендациях не настаивает на том, чтобы эта языковая статья образовательного закона была каким-то образом изменена. Это значит, что нам предлагается именно в подзаконных актах и в законе о среднем образовании ответить на те вопросы, которые возникают у наших соседей. Нам удалось положительно решить этот момент и подписать меморандумы о понимании дальнейших действий и с Болгарией, и с Польшей, сейчас мы выходим на такой же формат с Румынией. Я думаю, нам удастся решить этот вопрос и с Венгрией.

Виталий Портников: А что же будет с русским языком – Венецианская комиссия о нем специально упоминает?

Иванна Климпуш-Цинцадзе: Нам нужно правильно проанализировать количество этнических русских, которое мы имеем в Украине, и то, насколько велика в стране концентрация проживания тех или иных представителей русского меньшинства. У нас скорее стоит вопрос о том, что есть русскоязычные или украиноязычные украинцы, которые при этом говорят, что они по национальности украинцы, но часто используют в своем ежедневном обиходе именно русский язык. Я думаю, нам сперва придется решить вопрос с агрессией России против Украины, а потом уже, если будет такая необходимость, заниматься вопросами урегулирования прав национального русского меньшинства.

Но в Украине совершенно нет недостатка в культурном русскоязычном пространстве: в русскоязычных медиа, издательствах и театрах. Именно поэтому закон дифференцированно подходит к разным языкам. Если мы говорим о венгерском языке, то он удален от группы славянских языков, поэтому нужен совсем другой подход для его изучения в школах. А вот русский язык очень похож на другие славянские языки, и тот же болгарский похож на другие славянские языки, поэтому к ним немножко другой подход.

Виталий Портников: Будем надеяться, что в любом случае вся эта история будет частью продвижения Украины к Европе и решится в цивилизованных рамках.