Translated material
Expert: In Russia, the fire inspector became the fire itself
How and by whom is fire safety ensured in under construction and reconstructed buildings? Taiga.info talked with an expert in issues of fire protection and fire safety Andrei Panov.
Taiga.info: The project of the building should provide for safety: in the sense of the location of the premises, stairs and so on?
- Requirements of SNiP on the width of the aisles, the requirements of SNiP for fire marches, evacuation outputs: on a certain area - a certain number. The strength of the supporting structures. If this is a design that needs to be protected, respectively, the project should be spelled out (in an ideal project) what kind of fire protection it is. Each building of such a degree of fire resistance, such and such a category, refers to dangerous/non-hazardous. This is all categorical, it is all divided into points. All this is well spelled out at the legislative level and at the level of the requirements of construction norms.
Taiga.info: That is, depending on the category, the degree of resistance to fire and the degree of safety should be in accordance with?
- Yes, it should be clearly defined in the project.
Taiga.info: Does the project include finishing material, for example?
-This is also a subtle moment, unfortunately ... Yes, in the design documentation it is implied that the use of either porcelain border or something else. But in fact, as a result, we can have at all what is reflected in the papers.
Taiga.info: That is, the owner of the premises can take and make repairs at his discretion?
- Yes, finishing work can be at his discretion. But again: we are talking about the fact that those materials that are used with the builders-finishes at the next stage should be certified and approaching certain requirements. And this is also a whole market that has its own pitfalls.
Taiga.info: Okay, let's start with the project. Who prepares such projects? And who checks their compliance with fire norms?
- Designers in any case are included in their SRO. There are projects that are subject to state examination. There are projects that are not subject to. These are small objects, these are some temporary pavilions, or something else. If we are talking about a large facility, this is in any case a state examination.
Taiga.info: At what point is a check for compliance with fire safety rules, for compliance with the standards?
- When we are already approaching by the time the building is actually built. The state commission must accept. There is a State Commission, which includes the inspection of state construction supervision, if it is an industrial enterprise - then Rostekhnadzor. That is, a certain cohort of respected people who decide that this is customary, and this is not accepted. Or it is accepted, but must be finalized in the same part for such and such a period.
Taiga.info: If we take the example of Kemerovo, there who was to be responsible for the acceptance of this task?
- Unfortunately, I do not know how they did it. But for sure there should be some kind of reconstruction project, since this building from the industrial premises was redone to the public purpose.
In this case, it is natural that when the facility is passed, there should be a specialist from the inspection of state construction supervision, which conducts precisely the direction of fire safety. He had to participate there. He was supposed to view those materials of the project that relate precisely to his topic: those design decisions that were applied there, check them for compliance or inconsistency, make their comments.
Taiga.info: What does your company specialize in? What is your license for?
- We have a license of the Ministry of Emergencies, which allows us to engage in activities related to installation, maintenance and repair of funds to ensure fire safety of buildings and structures.
We do fire protection and in which case too. Fire extinguishing systems and their maintenance.
Taiga.info: I see. One of the reasons why the tragedy occurred in Kemerovo (there were a lot of different reasons, but one of them) was that the alarm did not work and the fire extinguishing system did not work. Or it was not turned on.
- What is most likely.
Taiga.info: In fact, she did not work. If it was supposed to “turn on and off manually” - then this means that the human factor worked?
- No matter how well the project was completed by the alarm system, the fire extinguishing system, ideally, they should be interconnected. That is: if there is fire somewhere, there will be confirming signals that “yes, it really goes fire”, sensors for smoke, sensors for temperature. Ideally, several things that duplicate. Nothing happened here!
But we, sometimes, are faced with the fact that these systems really turn off: "No matter what happens!"
Taiga.info: I mean, “so that it is not accidentally flooded with water”?
-The goods of tenants, something else: some expensive equipment. Such options are also possible.
Taiga.info: And how is the market of fire systems that the market of fire systems works today?
- In fact, the market has not been a very good situation. The project has been developed - the customer evaluates the project. Accordingly, there is an estimate value. And then they begin: “How would we save?” For example: metal with a low thickness was used. Accordingly, you can either paint it (which is much easier), or apply structural materials that are more expensive (and more complex in installation). And headaches begin to occur, for example, in terms of seasonality of work. Not all constructive materials can be used in the winter, when negative temperatures are on the object.
Taiga.info: About the “thickness of the metal” - are we talking about the strength of the structure? That in a fire, metal structures begin to bend?
- The deformation begins, accordingly, a change in the structure begins - which can lead to destruction. Which, in general, happened in Kemerovo.
Taiga.info: And to protect the metal, you need to cover it?
- There are certain norms, until what time this design in the fire should be unchanged. Accordingly, there is a market for fire -retardant materials that have confirmed certificates. And, in general, designers recommend at the first stage the customer that "in this situation we would use this material."
Taiga.info: And you, as a company that is engaged in fire safety, are also engaged in metal coating?
- Yes.
Taiga.info: And now the customer comes to you and says: "I need a system of measures to security of the building."
“I need to do work on fire protection.” We begin to raise the project and see that the designers were not entirely correct: they simply wrote "to carry out fire -retardant processing of materials." In fact, they did not work this section. And I do not know how the customer in the estimate is reflected. Then we make calculations. Even if these calculations are made by the designer, the degree of responsibility is not removed from us. We cannot point a finger at the designer and say: "They did it incorrectly." In any case, we must double -check, make our conclusion: correctly or wrong. And here the wishes of the customer begins. Here he says: “Listen, yes, the given metal thickness is low. Well, let's just paint, using thin -layer materials. Especially, just now winter is standing. And there are fire -retardant materials that can be used in winter. Let's do these works? ” I say: “Guys, you can’t! We cannot! ” He says: “Good. Then we will talk to another contractor. ” A certain period of time passes, people are lost. Then we see that the object is put into operation. And when I come there for the sake of interest to see - there everything is really painted using thin -layer materials.
Taiga.info: And who accepts these works?
- People who are responsible for fire safety in the inspection of state construction supervision.
Taiga.info: That is, in a good way-they had to come and say: “You do not correspond to you here!” AND?
- They had to raise the documentation, see the design solution, what is being implemented. And if the work is completed by other materials, ask for design documentation (calculations, certificates), which allows you to use these materials here.
Well, we lay our linoleum, and it does not fit the degree of fuel and everything else, but we will put your document, and no one will be particularly checked
Taiga.info: It turns out that the regulatory authorities commit violations?
- Yes. In fact, this is the market in which the corruption component plays a very large role.
Taiga.info: And what about these combustible finishing materials? How did we see the Kemerovo shopping center, there was instantly smoke? It seems that it burned very actively. And with a very greatestness of smoke. Apparently, most of the victims are precisely because of this?
- Yes. Because if we touch the fire, then it is dangerous first of all not the exposure to temperature, but the combustion products. Because of which intoxication, a burn of the airways occurs. This is not because he burned out (he was not attacked), namely because of smoke and combustion products. Here, too, a poorly controlled market is actually. We often encounter such things. The acquaintance is engaged, for example, in flooring, says that contractors who make repairs in kindergarten turn to him. They say: "Guys, give your fire safety certificate to your linoleum of such and such a brand." They ask: "For what?" They respond to them: “Well, we are wearing our own, but it does not fit the degree of combustibility and does not fit everything else. But we will put yours, and no one will particularly check. ” This is scary!
The next stage. There was a period when I was very interested in tenders. I say to the chief engineer: “Come on, here we are participating, count the estimate, count the costs, consider the materials, consider that we will pay workers.” We count. For example, the cost of work on a tender is 700 thousand. He says: "I counted everything very well, and we fit in the amount of 580 thousand." Or even up to 550 thousand, we are ready to sink, and it will be good. We get to the tender. 12 companies participate in the tender. And we are the third from the end! People win a tender for 380 thousand! I say: “How can it be? You counted: we only have 380 thousand material! ” We come to look at this object, which was played out by the tender, work has already been carried out there. I actually see that those wires, telephone wires on which were made, they did not change! They hang! There is no special cable that is used precisely in a fire system that must be certified, which should withstand a certain temperature. He is simply absent! A couple of summer residents are replaced. Because really they have already been painted 28 times. The control panel may have changed. I say: “Wait, so in fact nothing has been done! Nothing is changed! ” He says: “Of course! Because the inspector and the organization that serves is the former MCHS, and this is the current MCHS. And this is the former deputy chief physician for economic work. And they have been serving it for a long time. ” They just scattered money and that's it.
Taiga.info: And then everyone will sit cheerfully, in which case?
- And then, most likely, if there is a serious fire, then it will burn anyway. And no one will already check: this wire was really appropriate or not.
Taiga.info: That is, the alarm does not work for an unknown reason how it was.
- Or works, but it is turned off. If we touch our medical institutions, if you drive especially in the region, it's just a nightmare! Some are put in order, the newly introduced corresponds to some other frames and regulations. And if you dig deeper and look in the district hospital of the tuberculosis building - there is a nightmare. Houses of elderly, orphanages too. The same psychiatric hospital, they need to have bars on the windows. Are these lattices when made? Even before the revolution, they are of good quality, and you can’t knock them out.
Taiga.info: Are there any specific examples?
- A specific object: the Asinovsky forestry plant, where serious Chinese investments are going on. And moreover, the veneer workshop has already been commissioned. And when I come and go into it, my hair stands on end! This is a dangerous production where materials are stored. And fire extinguishing is made without fire alarm. That is, there are no sensors. And the guns of the “tungus” of large volume, which should extinguish the powder, cost. But, excuse me, the combustible materials wrapped in stacks (in this case, sheets of veneer) never extinguish powder! Powder materials can be stewed oil! And here it should be in any case water fire extinguishing! It should be water. I say: "Guys, if something happens, how will you be?" “Well, the guard or guard will see and pull the switch. And at this time extinguishing will occur. ” And I say: “Good. The extinguishing happened. We fell asleep powders. The decay remained, and flared up with renewed vigor. And your system has already worked. ” And in the workshop there are not even hydrants! And moreover, there is no alarm! The watchman does not sit every day and does not look at the area of 2000 more square meters: where there will be caught up!
The second - the MDF plant operates in full capacity. MDF plant is not one task. This is a complex of buildings: a hammer-cutting compartment, storage warehouse of chips, a heat-powered boiler room with high ceilings. The powder fire extinguishing system was used (since this is oil), water fire extinguishing. All this is well calculated. But this is not put into operation! Automation is not connected, the schedules are not displayed!
We are observing the catastrophic situation with the reduction in the staff of the Ministry of Emergencies
Taiga.info: Is it also in Asino?
- This is Asino. And at the same time, our organizations, the MCHS in Asino are aware of the situation. He says: “Andrei, unfortunately: since this is under construction, the Ministry of Emergencies under construction cannot go there. While it is not commissioned, the Ministry of Emergencies cannot check it! ”
Taiga.info: So he should not work at the moment?
- They work at full power! Moreover, the warehouse is completely clogged, the fire extinguishing system is not made! She is not that not connected to something-she is not made! A criminal case has been opened under Part 2 of Art. 171 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (entrepreneurial activity without a license in cases where such a license is required, associated with the extraction of income on an especially large amount). Now the question arises: if the death (God forbid!) People, but if something else? Two fires in Novosibirsk were already specifically! Two fires are not reflected in the reports - it was silent. And the plant continues to work. Despite the fact that the same Knorr (deputy governor Sergei Zhvachkin in the Tomsk region) said that if the conditions are not fulfilled, production would be stopped. Naturally, no one stopped before Putin’s elections. Since 350 people cannot be kicked out into the street.
Taiga.info: And who should stop?
- I believe that first of all it is Rostekhnadzor and the prosecutor's office.
Taiga.info: In each case, it turns out that different departments are responsible for the situation?
- Yes. First of all, the owner is responsible for this. But if we are talking about the Chinese, there is no idea about fire safety and everything else. They are weakly familiar with this. In this regard, their legislation is quite much behind.
Taiga.info: And what if, say, in kindergartens of linoleum the wrong quality? Who can find out and install it?
- There is an examination, there is a fire laboratory, there are the same employees of the Ministry of Emergencies who should come. Naturally, all situations cannot be disassembled. And it is unlikely that the inspector, who is assigned to this children's institution, will come, take a sample of this linoleum and give it to the laboratory. This, in which case, will be one hundred percent responsibility of the contractor who took this fear and risk and incorrectly completed this work.
Taiga.info: But it turns out that in reality the responsibility comes: there was a fire - and then will you answer?
- Yes. And if nothing happens - well, it will lie until the next replacement. Thus, our fire became the chief inspector.
Taiga.info: And this is only if this linoleum does not burn to the ground and will be what to analyze?
- That's right. In parallel, we observe a catastrophic situation with the reduction in the staff of the Ministry of Emergencies. This is a global problem. It is clear that those fire brigades that are engaged in fire extinguishing, and those guys who risk their lives - yes, they are heroes. But the number of organizations that must be checked to the remaining inspector is too large. And in a good way, he must still check the design documentation: does it correspond to? Or maybe some other calculations are checked, which are made in the project. They have a catastrophically lacking time. In fire laboratories (as far as I know) there are also units. Who are good specialists who can conduct examinations. There is already a division into duty: when someone will be on duty.
Talked by Alexei Mazur