Why do you need Roses, Telegram?

Alexander Plyushchev, Ivan Zasursky, Sarkis Darbinyan - about the fate of the brainchild of Pavel Durov in Russia

• By a court decision, Russia began to block access to the Telegram messenger, and its founder Pavel Durov said that he would continue to "defend the right to the secret of the correspondence of Russians."
• Durov’s confrontation is not with Roskomnadzor, but with the state and everyone who is affiliated with him.
• Now in the legislation there are no restrictions on the use of the messenger and the opportunity to hold the end user accountable.
• The main target after Telegram is Facebook and Twitter.
• We are faced with a story that humanity has never encountered.

Presenter- Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr ..

Video version of the program

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Today we have in the studio-the Internet facetor of the Echo Moskvy radio station Alexander Poyshchev, one of the plaintiffs in the court on the prohibition of the Telegram messenger.

Alexander, how many more authorities are left to compete in Russia for your rights?

Alexander Plyushchev: We passed the district court and the Moscow City Court. There is also a Supreme Court, the Presidium of the Supreme Court ... My lawsuit and lawsuit by journalist Oleg Kashin (we filed at the same time) now on the way to the ECHR. Another 40 users filed a collective lawsuit, they have about the same claims as ours. As far as I understand, they are also preparing for Strasbourg.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: What is the danger of this messenger for the authorities of those who emerge?

Alexander Plyushchev: I think that it's not about a specific tool. They are trying to tell us that terrorists use it. The terrorists, I heard, breathe air, drink water, use sewage, transport, other instant messengers, and the Internet. This is not a reason to prohibit everything. These are all - foam, details.

The point is Pavel Durov, the founder and owner of the Telegram messenger. The case happens on the eve of the ICO, the issuance of digital shares, digital tokens who want to buy businessmen including from Russia. But Pavel Durov admits not everyone from Russia. The fact is that Pavel Durov is not talking, and not that he refuses to convey the keys or something else.

At the end of last year, Pavel Durov was asked to register a messenger in the register of information distribution organizers. He said: "What data do you need? They are in the public domain. Take it and register it." After that, registered. There were no movements around the messenger for some time. And after some time, the FSB, on the basis of the "Yarova Law" demanded to convey the encryption keys, after which the whole story unfolded.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: On our direct connection, the President of the Association of Internet publishers Ivan Zasursky.

Ivan, how do you explain such perseverance of the authorities of the Telegram messenger on the prohibition of the messenger?

Ivan Zasursky: It may turn out to be important that Telegram has become a system of independent channels that do not require registration. Maybe Roskomnadzor had a desire to stop the publishing platform where there are unregistered publications.

The initiative comes from the FSB

Alexander Plyushchev: I think the initiative comes from the FSB.

Ivan, I agree with you that it turned out to be a new platform, it was a danger, but the Kremlin also used it.

It is necessary to look for the root in the fact that the FSB is unhappy with the fool, platform or technology.

Ivan Zasursky: Evil tongues say that this story helped Durov a lot. He is now going to ICO, and he registered ICO in America. The fact that he now has such a "gesture" decides the fate of the transaction by almost two billion, so he has every reason not to go to any agreements with anyone.

Alexander Plyushchev: There are a lot of conspiracy theories that Durov is associated with the FSB, attracts all unreliable in Telegram, and there they will be “under the cap” of the FSB, which helps him to unwind in the West ...

Ivan Zasursky: for example, in China you can track only VPN users, it is quite convenient - it narrows the circle. VPN is a "hole", especially if it is a free service. Free services of this kind will probably provide people who are interested in knowing what is happening there.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: We received a letter from Dmitry Gudkov: “After blocking Telegram, they are trying to configure its bypass. It was decided to use several dozen Amazon IP addresses for this. Which is, of course, it is unknown. Roskomnadzor will learn about this and blocks, just in case, 655 thousand Amazon IP addresses.”

Alexander Plyushchev: The Roskomnadzor is currently blocking about two million Amazon IP addresses. The head of Roskomnadzor, Alexander Zharov, commented on this: "The law allows us to do this, because third parties should not help bypassing the locks."

On these Amazon IP servers there can be a variety of stores and services, including Russian state ones. They say that some fines have already flew there.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: ATMs could fly.

Alexander Plyushchev: Roskomnadzor decided to “put” the entire Internet, only so that this unfortunate Telegram does not work, and it works like that. People for those two days that passed from the court decision before the start of the locks used the VPN, the proxy server. The catch with Amazon IP addresses is only to use a bypass. This is, as it were, a built -in circuit that offers Telegram. Such a story has already been with the Internet. She’s just small, and they don’t talk much about her. Then Roskomnadzor also “laid” part of the Internet only so that Zello does not work.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Our correspondent Nikita Tatarsky worked for promotions in defense of Telegram on Lubyanka.

Alexander Plyushchev: A white airplane is a mask, a Telegram emblem. There were several dozen people, including Pussy Riot, Maria Alekhina and her friend Dmitry Enteo. They, as reported, are the organizers of the action. There were many famous journalists, such as Ilya Azar, who illuminated this action.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: There was also the police ...

Alexander Plyushchev: They obviously caused reinforcements. Detained Dmitry Enteo. Along the way, he threw airplanes. There were several detentions, but it cannot be said that they used obvious violence. This action was not that not authorized, but not even announced. In the end, Alekhin was detained. It seems to be without injuries.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: We listen to Sarkis Darbinyan, a partner of the Center for Digital Rights, who believes that the battle of Roskomnadzor with Telegram users will end with the victory of users who will increase their technical level by one or two steps.

Sarkis Darbinyan: This will only improve the work of services, safety and, as a result, will allow more people from the first class of their technical knowledge to go to the second, using modern means of protecting private communications.

Sarkis Darbinyan

Despite the presence of a legal framework, Roskomnadzor today has no technical opportunities to carry out a total blocking of the service.

Alexander Plyushchev: Now the technical team of Pavel Durov is fighting for Telegram and can continue to be used without any bypass. As TELEGRAM lawyers said today, the International Association of Agora, their principal Pavel Durov asked to delay the blocking at least until the New Year, because all the actions began in the fall, and he asked for time to technically prepare.

The court was appointed very quickly, Roskomnadzor asked to immediately block as an interim measure. It was hoped that there would still be, that they would only be blocked after appeal, but they blocked right away. This swift indicates that the authorities understand: the tightening of time plays the Telegram team.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Ivan, at this stage, what account in the match between Pavel Durov and Roskomnadzor?

Ivan Zasursky: He has a match not with Roskomnadzor, but with the Russian state and with everyone who is affiliated with it. Durov left VKontakte, while he managed to maintain capital, which he was able to reinvest. "VKontakte" was taken away from him. It was 1: 1. He made Telegram with this money - it was 2: 1. And now he was blocked in Russia - this is 2: 2. At the same time, he raised almost two billion dollars in the ICO. He is now a real Hollywood hero. We will consider - 3: 2 in favor of Durov.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Sarkis Darbinyan believes that in the authorities, no matter what she said, there is no way to hold ordinary users who will bypass the prohibitions and use the Telegram messenger.

We are located a few steps to the "Red Line"

Sarkis Darbinyan: At present, there are no restrictions on the use of the messenger and the opportunity to bring to the administrative or criminal liability of the end user. Despite the fact that the Law on the ban on the VPN entered into force in the fall of the 17th year, it applies only to the administrators of these services and means that they are obliged to independently block all the information banned in Russia, otherwise they themselves will be blocked. Therefore, so far to restore access to Telegram is legal.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Maybe this is a "pen of the pen", are the technologies are rolled up to establish censorship?

Alexander Plyushchev

Alexander Plyushchev: Undoubtedly. Once they planted for jokes. With this you can compare the "likes", wools, reposts and so on. We are located a few steps to the Red Line. We still have several large services, significantly large than Telegram. Telegram is a very good platform on which such steps can be worked out. We still have at least two sites - Facebook and YouTube.

YouTube stands right in front of the "red line" when they must punish for services. Now it is the biggest media plane that successfully competes with television. If the main propaganda resource of the state is television, then its competitor must be eliminated. In Telegram, they tried to push their agenda, there are a lot of Prochrevsky, "drain" channels and so on. Nothing happened, they have no great influence and great popularity. In YouTube there is no influence from the Kremlin agenda. Obviously, they missed this site.

If the “soft” force cannot be influenced there (and they will not even go there), then only hard force can be influenced. YouTube are watching millions of people in Russia: almost all Internet users are simultaneously YouTube users. Imagine that 90 percent due to blocking will be involved in politics. They will lose what they have, due to the fact that someone decided so-Roskomnadzor, the FSB and so on.

This is a very dangerous step, so you need to work out everything with smaller examples. One of these "small" examples, despite all its great popularity, is Telegram Pavel Durov.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Are you sure that people will be outraged due to YouTube blocking to such an extent that this will result in social protests on the streets of Moscow?

Alexander Plyushchev: We see that he called Telegram ... 20 people came to Lubyanka. When users lose Facebook - then more. YouTube - maybe even more.

The wrapping of nuts on the Internet began with the "Arab Spring", from the end of 2001-early 2010s, especially since Russian events arrived in Bolotnaya Square. But in the Arab countries, the most important problems with the street did not begin when they coordinated on the Internet, but when the nuts twisted to such an extent that the Internet was turned off.

In Russia, all sorts of options are possible, but all users are so used to the Internet that they can’t just be taken away from them.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: This is a controversial question ...

Alexander Plyushchev: Therefore, YouTube and Facebook do not block at the same time.

Now a lot will depend on users: as far as they give themselves to extinguish, soak, block.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Sarkis Darbinyan spoke about the features and uniqueness of Telegram compared to other messengers.

Sarkis Darbinyan: Telegram has not many analogues and competitors. He became not only a messenger, where users can exchange private messages, but also turned into a new media, into a channel for the dissemination of information. Not all messengers have similar functionality, so for users it is a value. I think that they will continue to use it.

The story with Telegram will largely depend on the position of American companies. Roskomnadzor has not yet contacted Apple and Google. If the messenger is removed from the app stores, and the cloud servers of Amazon and Google will refuse Telegram to use their infrastructure, then new users will not be able to connect and install the application. This will lead to a serious loss of a user base from Russia.

Ivan Zasursky: The Russian user base is something not very large that can be neglected.

Ivan Zasursky

As for the YouTube lock-he still has 40 percent of the traffic, as mobile operators told me. Conditionally, in Russia, two fifths in bytes are YouTube. I would rather say that now the main target is Facebook and Twitter. Facebook has already received a notification, and now there is a very large negative PR against them that they in America allowed to steal data.

Alexander Plyushchev: I agree, Ivan. Facebook and Twitter - in line, but on Twitter they now began to pay less attention. On the one hand, it became less influential, and on the other, it is a platform of microblogs, where the Kremlin agenda, trolls, in bots and their other tricks, has the greatest successes.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: After the first success, Roskomnadzor will go on the offensive?

Alexander Plyushchev: I'm not sure that the actions of Roskomnadzor can be called success.

Roskomnadzor is not an independent player, this is an instrument in the hands of the FSB, Silovikov, Putin - anyone. Most likely, this is not the Russian government, not ministers. They will be forced to continue-such is the logic of development: at first very small services, something is worked out on them, sites, then messengers, then social networks, and then-media platforms.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Are Chinese or North Korean options possible in Russia?

Alexander Plyushchev: What Roskomnadzor is doing now is closer to the North Korean version.

But the "Yarovaya Law" is able to ruin small providers, enlarge and transfer them into public hands. So after a few years, perhaps we will purely technologically come to a look like Chinese models, where state providers, which you control in the "turned on - turned off" mode. But for several years - this is a very long time for our country, so I would not have guessed.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: What are the ways for resistance to civil society?

Ivan Zasursky: So far, we can talk about anything, get access to information. We must be technically savvy, independent people who want to receive complete information, effectively communicate. Sooner or later we will win.

We crawl in an era when a bunch of various difficulties begins to arise. The use of additional tools creates a very convenient sample when you can track only those who are hiding, who want to access what is prohibited. Then there will be a difficult game. The readiness for collective sabotage, of course, charges with optimism. But this does not mean that it will be comfortable.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Given how they dispersed the demonstration today, while these are only jokes.

Alexander Plyushchev: Not getting used to the dispersal of demonstrations here.

Another important thing. Those who support Roskomnadzor, the FSB is that everything needs to be banned and so on has no passion, desire. These are passive supporters of prohibitions, and they will never go outside for their beliefs.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: They do not have an additional incentive.

Alexander Plyushchev: Even on the Internet, they will not take any measures to fence from something, to block something for themselves. And those people who want to bypass blocking have passion, mind, and the skill that TELEGRAM demonstrated today. According to its own statistics, it seems to me that traffic fell by a dozen percent. This means that all the people who were in Telegram acquired means of bypassing locks. They are technically subsidized and literate. For me it was a big discovery.

Prior to this, the largest blocking was Rutracker - a pirate site where films. There are a huge mass of people, and still his traffic fell in the first days by 70 percent, and then straightened. People had a stimulus - they wanted to watch films, and still many of them were simply crawled. And here no one was crawled out, despite the fact that there are no beautiful films in Telegram, including naked girls. All these people went around the locks simply in spite of Roskomnadzor, because he pokes them with his nose in the toilet. This is inspiring.

Vladimir Kara-Murza Sr.: Ivan, do you agree that such an activity of Russian users promises their success in the fight against Roskomnadzor?

Progress cannot be stopped using prohibitive and legislative measures

Ivan Zasursky: My comrade Anton Merkurov claims that in a week everything will put some tools for themselves, and for a party around Telegram the issue with blocks will be resolved in general. I am not so optimistic, because in China I saw that after all, not every VPN works well, not every VPN can be trusted: they collect some information about you and give it to the same China. There are a lot of difficulties, details and nuances.

Конечно, прогресс невозможно остановить с помощью запретительных и законодательных мер. В технологии инвестируются миллиарды долларов, в России есть умнейшие специалисты, один из них – Павел Дуров. У него прекрасный, технически подкованный брат. Они взяли лучших людей, способных на многое, не только они, но и другие наши молодые люди. Реальные плоды всей этой истории мы пожнем через некоторое время в виде технической подкованности наших пользователей.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Иван, вы слишком оптимистично смотрите на вещи.

Александр Плющев: Я еще вспомнил бы, что это началось раньше. Писатели-"шестидесятники" были вынуждены на время или навсегда уехать в эмиграцию, теперь это – "золотой фонд" русской литературы.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: С огромным опозданием...

Александр Плющев: С точки зрения ценностей все это сейчас не подлежит никакому сомнению, несмотря на то что, казалось, это никому не нужно, это навсегда, это похоронят, раздавят бульдозерами выставки и так далее. Очевидно, так будет и с этим.

Мы столкнулись с такой историей, с которой человечество вообще еще ни разу не сталкивалось. Интернет дал каждому человеку возможность быть равным с другими людьми, сказать то, что он думает, и это могут услышать все остальные, а могут не услышать. Если он представляет собой интерес, то может завоевать внимание миллионов. Раньше для этого нужно было выйти в СМИ, а сейчас есть YouTube, и многие люди становятся мегапопулярными, только один раз появившись на YouTube.

Интернет дал нам совсем новую ситуацию, когда люди могут общаться между собой по всему миру, не спрашивая разрешения у своих правительств. Может быть, мы ее даже не до конца осмыслили. Те процессы, которые происходят, – и "арабская весна", и на Украине, и у нас, и где бы то ни было, – накрепко сейчас завязаны на интернете. Не будь интернета, их бы не было или они были бы совсем другими.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Судя по событиям сегодняшнего дня, по-моему, общество проглотило очередную пощечину.

Александр Плющев: Наоборот! Сегодня исторический день, когда Роскомнадзор попытался заблокировать что-то, а оно работает. Некоторые чиновники открыто говорят, что они будут оставаться в Telegram, пока закон не будет запрещать им это делать. Это не может не впечатлять, не может не вдохновлять. Мы сегодня наблюдаем за бессилием Роскомнадзора, за откровенной импотенцией.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Если государство полностью отказалось бы от своих планов, тогда я считал бы, что это победа гражданского общества.

Александр Плющев: Если у вас 18 лет закручивали гайку в одну сторону, то развинтить ее за один день не под силу никому – разве что в силу каких-то тектонических, революционных преобразований. Сегодня нам, может быть, не удалось даже развернуть эту гаечку в другую сторону по резьбе, но то, что ход ее замедлился, совершенно однозначно.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Если истцы выиграют в Страсбургском суде, вернется ли все к изначальному статус-кво?

Иван Засурский: Я не вижу оснований для этого.

История битвы государства с технологиями, с программами и со всем остальным – столько всего интересного нас ждет, столько сюжетов, которые мы сейчас даже представить не можем. Кто эти люди, которые будут этим заниматься? По чьему заказу? Как это все будет устроено? Что будет плавать в этой мутной воде?

Не следует воспринимать эту историю как примитивную: поставили защиту – и все стало хорошо. Конечно, это будет продолжаться, потому что наше государство пока ошибочно идет по пути регулирования, по пути государственной политики, связанной с ограничениями информации и с контролем над каналами. Нужно выходить с позитивными инициативами, переигрывать информационную повестку.

Александр Плющев: Будут взламывать, воровать информацию и так далее, а государство нам предложит: "Давайте я вас от этого всего защищу". При этом оно совершенно спокойно, не задумываясь ни на секунду, выложит в Сеть все твои персональные данные.

Вчера Мосгорсуд по недосмотру выложил в открытый доступ адрес бывшего пресс-секретаря Роскомнадзора Ампелонского, где он отбывает арест. Если у них будут все ваши переговоры, переписка, они их точно так же выложат, "сольют" либо по глупости, либо за деньги.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Один из плюсов интернета – это его международная составляющая, выходить в эфир можно из любой страны.

Александр Плющев: Безусловно – если вас не заблокируют в стране. Тогда вам придется искать инструменты обхода, а их пытаются запретить. Вы попытаетесь найти инструменты обхода инструментов обхода. Но полицейскому трудно тягаться с инженером, потому что у полицейского есть только устав, а инженера не сдерживает вообще ничто.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Как я понял, все, что сегодня сделано, можно отсудить?

Александр Плющев: Мы работаем над этим, но скорее, это вопрос к адвокатам, которые разрабатывают иски. Я уверен, что иски будут еще. Судебное решение, результат которого мы сегодня обсуждаем, будет оспариваться. Отсудить-то можно, вопрос – в каком суде. В российском суде пока не было таких прецедентов. Не надо ждать, пока Европейский суд расставит все своим местам. Мы сами должны действовать сообразно тому, что мы не нарушаем даже те безумные законы, которые в последнее время напринимали. Исполняйте собственные законы. У нас есть Конституция, которая предусматривает тайну переписки и запрещает цензуру. Несколько статей нарушаются.

Владимир Кара-Мурза-старший: Несколько статей – это очень мягко сказано.