Always funny!

Conversation with the writer and playwright Grigory Gorin (1998)

Archival project "Radio Liberty this week 20 years ago." The most interesting and significant from the Archive of the Radio Freedom of twenty years ago. Incomplete story. Still living hopes. Could Russia go the other way?

Satir writer Grigory Gorin about work, life, creativity, love and literature. The program "on top of the barriers" was the air for the first time on March 21, 1998. The author and presenter Ivan Tolstoy.

Ivan Tolstoy : The guest of our Prague studio is a prose writer, playwright Grigory Gorin, one of the few Soviet writers who survived the era of perestroika and who remained in the literature without losing the reader, and retaining in the current repertoire all their main works of the 60s-70s. Grigory Gorin, as before, the desired author in Czech theaters. Around these topics, our conversation will go.

Grigory Izrailevich, just like you in my youth, I studied at the Medical Institute at one time, and instead of reading something in the specialty, some "problems of purulent peritonitis", I read comments on Pushkin. All the time, the teachers caught me behind this and said: "Well, if you want to become Gorin, then go away, do not take someone else's place." Tell me, please, but your decision to quit medicine and switch to the writer's path, was it what was connected with at one time?

Grigory Gorin : It was connected, paradoxically, with great respect for the medical profession. The fact is that I worked as an ambulance when I decided to leave this main profession of my main profession. And work on the ambulance suggested a rather tough service schedule and a rather great employment. It was possible to write between challenges, compose or think about something else at a certain stage. Then, when he began to engage in large forms, including the theater, and this is due to rehearsals, trips, and it was no longer possible to engage in medicine and people. Chekhov said: "Medicine is my wife, literature is my mistress." And then I joked that in our age, mistresses often displace wives and become the basis of the family. So literature appeared as the main profession.

Grigory Gorin

Ivan Tolstoy : Tell me, what did you write then, how did you realize yourself as a writer in those medical years?

Grigory Gorin : In the medical years, I realized myself as what is now called a somewhat vulgar phrase-a satirist writer. My first books were full of feuilletons, stories, sketches, humor and the first comedies that we wrote with a colleague in literature and medicine Arkady Arkanov. My first plays, including in Leningrad, the delivered "Wedding for the whole of Europe" in the theater of Akimov, set by Nikolai Pavlovich, was my coming in literature and the theater. And when more serious plays have already appeared, which demanded more faithful, sorry for the high partness, service the theater, I left both medicine and co -authors, and began to engage in this matter seriously. And now, by the age of 57 - 14 staged and written plays in different countries, including in the Czech Republic, where we are talking with you now, and in Russia, where I now live.

"At this performance, Ekaterina Furtseva shouted to us:" Do you want us to have tanks here, like after "Dzyad" in Warsaw?! "" "" "

Ivan Tolstoy : Grigory Israilevich, for the man of my generation, who has met your name from his earliest years in print and on theatrical posters, it seems that your writer's fate was non -dramatic, you have always been printed. But, as we know, some, of course, reefs, stones and all kinds of underwater predators, of course, existed. Tell me, what made up this dramatic part of your biography in the far years?

Grigory Gorin : These underwater reefs and natural contacts, and friction with censorship existed. There were forbidden plays, including little -known. For example, our playing a banquet, famous for those times, was called “Banquet”, it was staged by director Mark Zakharov at the Satire Theater, and is prohibited. In a row, two plays were prohibited - “profitable place”, where Andrei Mironov played the main role, and this “banquet”, where Papanov and Mikhail Derzhavin played. It was a very noisy performance. At this performance, Ekaterina Furtseva shouted to us: "Do you want our tanks to have tanks here, like after" Dzyad "in Warsaw?!" Just time erased all these minor troubles. I call them small, because at that time people went to prison, went to protest on Red Square or emigrated. I did not do anything of this, so outwardly fate looked quite safe. And it would be ridiculous for me now, as many of my colleagues do, they begin to seek out some brilliant examples of their own courage in the forbidden years. The genre helped me a lot. Everyone understood that in any situation, Gogoli and Shchedrins were needed (the famous phrase said at the party congress), on the other hand, irony is so dangerous, even censorship against it, even party bosses were afraid to go openly. I did not want to look funny. Therefore, I did not pose danger to them. Only then they were extremely surprised when "forget Herostrata!" Or “Til Ulenspiegel” caused such a violent reaction that officials shook their hands and said: “I don’t understand what was the matter!” The country took possession of the ezopian language as never before. Now he also has not died, I think that without him, Russian literature would have impoverished.

"The country took possession of the ezopian language as never before. Now it has not died either, I think that without it, Russian literature would be very impoverished."

Ivan Tolstoy : After the medical institute, I studied at automobile courses, and again faced the unusual popularity of your name. My autododel teacher liked to quote writers. He had such a saying: "As my beloved writer Grigory Gorin wrote," the connection of the times was broken. " Grigory Izrailevich, what has broken for you in a well -known era, and what has been preserved? How did you come out of these commemorative several years - the late 80s - early 90s?

Grigory Gorin : by virtue of my character, I perceived this a) not tragic, but b) with some kind of childish joy. I was very grateful to the time that "they called the all -willed as an interlocutor for a feast." What I see that I had lived before, that I could have been at the White House and that I could experience a terrible night when the parliament was fired. All this was not so scared of me. Maybe because by this time I understood something about life, Kushnerovskoye, that "times do not choose/live and die in them. There is no more vulgarity in the world/what to beg and foul." I absolutely did not want to blame for a while, so sometimes I made among my colleagues a feeling of a slightly invigorating optimist, who could even act on nerves at times. Somehow I firmly believed that, firstly, everything would work out, this is all very Russian maybe, and secondly, that, in fact, is terrible? The empire collapsed, and you were lucky to live at this time and observe. Moreover, participate in the process. For example, I am a popular writer and I am proud of this factor. What I compose did not cease to interest the theater, all my plays are still played. Six of my plays are now playing in Moscow. This is a lot for the playwright. Let critics and spectators determine quality, but the fact that I am an actively acting writer, I have no feeling that visited several of my colleagues - unnecessary and despair on this subject. And, most importantly, the grumbling of young people who come semi -literate, arrears, capture places. No, no one replaces me, does not capture. Moreover, I am ready, I led the courses of young playwrights and satirists, I rejoice at their successes. He brought so many people, and even recommended that the union of writers of all famous young people from Nina Sadur, Viktor Slavkin and Mark Rozovsky, and I have nothing left for their work.

Peter Vile (left) and Grigory Gorin

Ivan Tolstoy : Grigory Izrailevich, if we talk about the theater boom in Russia and, in particular, in Moscow, what, in your opinion, is he determined what are his main components?

Grigory Gorin : Theater began to perform the function that Hollywood performed during the Great Depression in America. The theater was returned by a certain illusory world, which was not enough for society in connection with the revelations of life that burst into his mind through the TV, through newspapers, through rallies, in the end, through everything that came from the street and what the theater did at a certain time, when we did the so -called black and depicted life, which was hidden by official propaganda. Official propaganda burst, life rushed and appeared before the viewer with the forms that should be represented, that is, television essays, reports, politicians' performances, demonstrations from the Duma, from the streets of St. Petersburg, Moscow and the Far East. And then it turns out that the theater began to engage in its function purely, it turned into a theater-guard. It turned into a very peculiar temple, where, at times, some decoration, illusory. Everything that was connected directly with the theater became interesting, from the visual part of it, from the staged, from admiration for the actor’s talent, and the opportunity to forget and feel in some special illusory, beautiful world. Sometimes we ironized this, this is an philistine approach - make me beautiful. Today, I, becoming older, understand that there is nothing shameful in this. Moreover, the theater for me stopped only displaying my life. Moreover, it is an integral part of life, and in an integral part of life it requires some place where you can come and exist in a special way. Therefore, everything that is characteristic of the theater, which we forgot about so that people are beautifully dressed in the theater ... I know, I was in Norilsk now, and I saw how the play starts twenty minutes later because women bring shoes with them, we need to change their boots. And the theater respects the fact that the viewer is preparing for theatrical action. The theater is full not only in Moscow. I go a lot of Russian province, and I saw full theaters in Bryansk, in Norilsk, full of theaters in Siberia. Here a certain competition of provincial cities appeared (they do not like when they say that), that is, regions in relation to Moscow. Previously, people did not go to local theaters, watched TV and were interested in how famous favorites play in the Satire Theater or in the Satyra Theater. Today I meet more and more spectators who talk about the actor or ours, local, who is no worse than Raikin or Neelova. And, the most pleasant, philanthropists, local new Russians who experience Morozovsky, Mammoth complex, that I have unfastened the money here - what are they in such costumes? This is very pleasing to me. And the last "golden mask" is again a lot of names from the regions that received bonuses.

Ivan Tolstoy : Grigory Izrailevich, you are so clearly analyzing the reason for the success of the theater in today's life of the Russian that I want to ask you if you are so consciously approaching this, then, probably, you can formulate your own super -task, which you put in your works for the stage?

Grigory Gorin : So, of course, I definitely won’t take it, if everything was so obvious to me, I would just send you a telegram. If the idea of the play is clear, it is better to send it with a telegram, and not spend 70-80 pages of text on it. No, I think you still listen to time and understand. This is not a shutter in front of the public, although dramatic art, of course, should take into account the third component constituting theatrical art, that is, theater, the author, but also a spectator. Intuitively, you understand that the time has come when people want this and that, and this and that, as a rule, want themselves. Here is the last play, which is now in Moscow, it is called "The plague for both of your homes!" And here I came to Prague, she rehearses, I was now at rehearsals in the city of Yilava on the way to Brno, such an old European, very nice city. They set up my different plays, including this one. This is, as it were, the continuation of the topic of Romeo and Juliet, the story of Montecca and Capuletti the day after the death of the young. Suddenly it seemed to me that it would be nice to tell about that ... we always sing the love of young, young, unrequited, and this is the natural position of people. But more and more, over the years, I understand that love is also the love of lame and slanting, drinking and infidels, non -residency and crooking, which, in fact, are the bulk of humanity. And they have quite strong feelings, no less than the feelings of Romeo and Juliet. And only you need to try them a little with irony and show a little with a romantic hill.

"... I understand over the years that love is also the love of lame and slanting, drinking and infidels, non -nursing and crooking, which, in fact, are the bulk of humanity"

Ivan Tolstoy : Did you really suggest this to the poor Yiglavets?

Grigory Gorin : No, they themselves want to play. Here are modern Romeo and Juliet. I have Montecca and Capuletti after the death of the young, at the request of the duke, had to be related - then the war war would end. Montecki put forward the groom, and Capuletti - some kind of bride. And hatred is so strong that they put forward the worst. And the coin takes the crook of lame, oblique and drunkard, and the Kapuletti slip a pregnant maid.

Ivan Tolstoy : And, of course, no matter what, they have such love!

Grigory Gorin : Not like that, but it ends tragic, like true love. But their scream “The plague is on both of your homes!”, Not Mercutio, who pronounces it in pathos, but in the despair of a small family that has formed, which is again starting to be torn into pieces. Then they take machine guns, disperse all parties, all houses, all families that prevent them from unit. It seems to me that today people have it - they are with fire, all parties, parliaments, ideas, the struggle of old socialists with new clericals. There is a house, there are values that they conquer now even in totalitarian countries - this is my family, these are my children, this is my wife, and since she is my wife, I will not touch her and insult her. Whether this is the values that are in demand by society, I will see when the premiere will be. And the fact that it was interesting to me, I wrote it.

Singer Veronica Valley and her friends. From left to right: Nikolai Petrov, Veronika Dolina, Arkady Arkanov, Andrei Voznesensky, Grigory Gorin, Unonment Smoktunovsky, Valentin Gaft, Zinovy Gerdt, Alexey Batalov, Bulat Okudzhava, Alexander Ivanov

Ivan Tolstoy : Tell me, please, where else, besides the Czech Republic, are your works outside Russia put?

Grigory Gorin : There were a lot in Germany at one time in America and Germany, and in all countries of the former social camp. You know, in the Czech Republic, for example, all my plays have been staged several times in different cities. How did this happen? In those totalitarian times, there was still some kind of order in the Czech Republic - it is necessary that the Soviet writer be necessarily next to Czech and Western ones. Therefore, the Czechs have already decided that if we need Soviet, then we need an understandable Soviet and close to them in spirit. And in this regard, my parables, be it “Herostrath”, “Til Ulenspiegel” or “The House that Swift built” (this was the first premiere here in Prague, it was called “The Last Deer of Dr. Swift”) all this was clear and tune. Therefore, in the Czech Republic I am a playwright, maybe even better known than in Russia. Yesterday I performed at the Institute of Slavicism, I was pleased, there students gave me the thesis in my plays. Although I understand that now with the fact that our countries begin to move further and further from each other, the influence of English -speaking literature is much more than Russian -speaking. Slavists also recognize it to me. The process is almost inevitable. If the cultural mission of our state in the form of embassy workers and all societies were not so indifferently indifferent, and would not have lost the opportunity to influence at least the preservation of interest in Russian culture, which was in Prague. Still, this place where all our Russian emigration was, and sympathy for Russian literature in traditions. Now they disappear in their eyes, and it is very offensive.

Ivan Tolstoy : Grigory Israilevich, of course, when you look at a diploma written about your works, I want to make some adjustments, at least then not get rid of the impression that you have been said. Tell me, you have such a great international experience. When you write a new play, how much do you focus on ensuring that it is understandable not only to the Russian viewer?

Grigory Gorin : This happens implicitly, because, as a rule, the plots of my stories are really universal. I have a few plays of purely Russian sound. Here is the last of them, entitled "Lucks-Nashtlivtsev" is now in the Satire Theater, they play Shirvindt and Derzhavin in the title role. It is built on an associative series that is associated with today's Russian life. She enjoys a very great success in the Satire Theater, and they now traveled with this play to America and Israel, for our emigration, and they were very great, because everything is clear and clear. But the translators who got acquainted here said that we were painful to translate, the current state of the Russian society is fraught with so many internal humor and such riddles that it’s hard to understand the eye of someone else's eye. And here all this is theatrical. Это судьба двух актеров, которые хотят сыграть то Счастливцева-Несчастливцева в "Лесе" Островского, то Дон-Жуана и Лепорелло на гастролях, и каждый раз попадают в быт сиюминутных российских реалий. Очень трудно перевести. Поэтому я понимаю, что эту пьесу не будут понимать, а "Чума на оба ваши дома!" понятна всем и переводится на многие языки.

Иван Толстой : У вас есть ваши личные театральные предпочтения? Кого из драматургов вы любите?

Григорий Горин : Это, конечно, господин Вильям Шекспир, которого я просто только сейчас начал понимать. Прекрасно понимаю, что учитывая книгу Гилилова, что, может быть, он ничего этого не написал, а все это приписывается ему. Но мне это абсолютно все равно, потому что эта драматургия, так сложно написанная, даже если это продукт коллективного разума, то все равно пьеса "Гамлет" необъяснима с точки зрения возможности написания ее человеком. Просто такое количество мотиваций, мыслей, странностей и загадок – непонятно, как это родилось, какая смелость в авторе этой пьесы, кто бы он ни был.

Иван Толстой : Я чувствую, что наш народ, в лице моего преподавателя по автоделу, был прав. "Григорий Горин сказал: "Порвалась связь времен"".

Григорий Горин : И он же сказал, что "весь мир - театр, а люди в нем – актеры".