Everyone will be closed?

Half a century of "demonstrations of seven" in 1968 on Red Square in protest against Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia. Its participants were in prison and psychiatric hospitals, were forced to leave the USSR. Times seem to have changed. However, today in Russia again more than a hundred political prisoners.

Ramzan Kadyrov recently stated that after the end of the trial of the head of the Grozny Memorial, Oyub Titiyev, Chechnya, would become “forbidden territory” for human rights activists. A new offensive is being prepared for non -profit organizations. The Ministry of Justice proposes to make the "Law of the Sclops" in terms of foreign financing of NGOs and the assignment by foreign NPOs to the status of "undesirable organizations" even more repressive.

The eternal war of the USSR authorities, and now Putin Russia with dissidents are discussed by human rights activists Pavel Litvinov (USA), Alexander Cherkasov (Memorial), Vladimir Bukovsky (Great Britain).

Mikhail Sokolov is broadcast.

Video version of the program

Mikhail Sokolov: I will remind you that in Moscow on August 25, an action took place in memory of the events of 1968. Then, 50 years ago, 8 people went to Red Square in protest against Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia. Both in 1968, and 50 years later, one of the participants was our guest, human rights activist Pavel Litvinov. In our studio, Alexander Cherkasov, Memorial, also promised to be Vladimir Bukovsky, a well -known dissident and human rights activist with us. And then, and now the action was accompanied by the detention of protest participants, but now the special services seemed to be more fingering. Now “for our and your freedom”, apparently, they do not beat, but they will be brought to the department and plant, I suspect, they will not, they will give a great fine. Is it possible to say that in the relations of the state and society, in comparison with 1968, we see some significant progress?

Pavel Litvinov: I think that it is possible, but this is a matter of personal attitude and temperament of optimistic or pessimistic. I am always inclined to optimism, although I do not expect anything good, nevertheless I think that things will change in the future. And what we are doing now will still be reflected, it is simply unknown when. I do not make forecasts. Nevertheless, we went to Red Square again, we were not allowed to the frontal place, however, but I stood there, other people, children, acquaintances stood around me. About a hundred and more than a hundred microphones, I told them everything, reminded them of 1968, reminded of what is happening now, reminded of Oleg Sentsov, about Ukraine, about Crimea. The policeman stood, he, however, asked me for my American passport, looked, examined, but returned. They stood nearby, I didn’t even see right away, Vadim Delone's cousin-Sharov-Delone, Gozman and unexpectedly for me participated in my action and Natasha Gorbanevskaya granddaughter Nyusya Krasovitskaya. She simply unfolded a piece of paper on which she only wrote Sentsov Freedom before. This was enough to take it. I didn’t even have time to notice, I suddenly look - in Polvarta, two policemen lead her, and my American wife runs behind her to free her. We come, they took it to the China-Gorod branch. Three hours later, they made something else with the promise of something, the trial in the future.

This, of course, does not look like a bag with bricks or with Karl Marx’s volumes on my head, I don’t know what was inside, how they knocked out Vita Faynberg’s teeth, the dates of the exile and a crazy house, the camps that we received. So progress.

Mikhail Sokolov: If we compare, for example, the 1990s and today, we see a really significant regression. "Memorial" leads statistics, how many political prisoners are now in modern Putin Russia?

Alexander Cherkasov: Firstly, we have far from full lists of political prisoners, but there is a hundred per hundred. Moreover, now the part of the list, where convicted in connection with religion, is growing very quickly, primarily due to Jehovah's witnesses and partly due to the condemnation of certain Muslims in the Crimea. But the list of convicted activists, civilian activists, political prisoners in a more familiar sense of the word, it is growing. Today we will have a meeting, we will watch a lot of things more.

Our list is far from complete. The Soviet government in a sense was more honest. She had articles 70 - anti -Soviet agitation and propaganda, 190 approx., The same, but a little easier, 190.3, you seem to interfere with the passage of transport on Red Square with your demonstration. In general, a list of articles that were obviously political. There were camps for political prisoners. It was possible to calculate at least by whom the Soviet government itself determined so. Of course, the Soviet government said: no, no, these are all criminals.

Look, now my friend and colleague Oyub Titiev are judged in Chechnya formally for drugs. His Muslim, who observes customs, an athlete constantly training, took marijuana with 200 grams. Prior to this, the Caucasian Knot correspondent was condemned with the difference that he was pulled out of the bus that was supposed to be taken to the airport, he had a conference in Moscow, he found himself in the cemetery with a hefty package of marijuana. Ruslan Kutaev left the camp, who marked the anniversary of the Stalinist deportation of Chechens and Ingush. He was not convicted of marijuana, but, it seems, for heroin, he did not even throw him, they issued that he had him. That is, the use of a purely criminal article, a dirty criminal article against public activists, against human rights activists, against journalists. Dmitriev’s case, and now it is clear now, with the beginning of excavations in the tract Sandarmokh, where Dmitriev raised these thousands of remains buried there victims of the Stalinist terror.

Mikhail Sokolov: There is primarily a Solovetsky execution.

Alexander Cherkasov: Solovetsky execution is the most famous, the first thing that was found there in the summer of 1997. 1111 people of the Big Solovetsky stage. But in total there are up to 9 thousand people, executed during the years of large terror. And after the arrest of Dmitriev, after he was behind bars, there was the name of the Medinsky Russian Military Historical Society, which excavations, proving that the Finns had shot captives of the Red Army at all there.

Please you motive, evidence and all that you need to solve a crime, only a crime in this case is a person’s persecution for political reasons. You can continue this list. But they are planted primarily on criminal articles, there are no special camps for political prisoners. Therefore, we know far from everyone and far from all of us, and to society to prove that this person was arrested and convicted precisely on the political reasons of the authorities. Therefore, our list is obviously not full.

Mikhail Sokolov: Vladimir Konstantinovich, in your opinion, is the modern Russian Putin regime in a sense on the way to the totalitarianism of the new modern type, where the minority is not killed, they do not even put in camps, but drive into such an information and financial narrow space, some kind of ghetto?

Vladimir Bukovsky: It looks like that. Plus, add here a large outflow of the population through emigration, which, of course, is very impoverished by the remaining environment, and the number of capable and those who want to protest automatically decreases. Yes, it turns out approximately.

Today's regime in Russia, of course, is a little different by its cruelty than in the USSR. They are somehow more willing to kill. In our time, there were still murders, but not so often, but here is just a normal way to get rid of the opponent. This was still not then, I mean in the Khrushchev-Brezhnev period.

Mikhail Sokolov: Bogatyreva seems to have been beaten to death, there was such a case.

Vladimir Bukovsky: There was such a case, Kostya Bogatyrev died. Then there was Ira Kaplun, which, most likely, the KGB killed, because she was warned not to go to the Baltic states during the Olympics, and she went. A car disaster - it looks like a murder. But these were isolated cases, but now these are just a system. The second thing you now note right away is the prevalence of torture. We had beatings in the police departments, we beat everywhere and so on, but such mass and systematic use of torture was still not observed. There were reprisals in the camps, but there was no such system in this, now it is more massive, more rigid. As for the conclusion, it somehow became a little easier, more likely to be punished for an administrative violation than to get for three years for a demonstration. So he just changes, he adapts to the needs of the day, finds optimal ways to deal with dissatisfied.

Mikhail Sokolov: What, in your opinion, is the situation with the starving in prison for more than a hundred days by Oleg Sentsov and generally Ukrainian political prisoners? What are the opportunity to achieve their liberation?

Alexander Cherkasov: You ask me about really scary things. The hunger strike of Oleg Sentsov, it can be compared with the hunger strike of Marchenko, with the hunger strike of Scharan. But not here, now there are no ways to change something, to somehow influence the state. Moreover, Sentsov talks about dozens, about hundreds of inwards in connection with the conflict of Russia and Ukraine.

There are completely nightmare plots. Just Vladimir Konstantinovich spoke about torture, once again I will say about the case of Karpyuk and Klykh. Two people, two Ukrainian nationalists were arrested and convicted that they allegedly killed and tortured Russian soldiers during the First Chechen War. The torture did not enter the verdict, they are like a context. But, excuse me, in the first war I was looking for these soldiers in Chechnya, more or less restore the circumstances of the death of each of the Carpyuk and Klyu’s imputed. It turns out that even if they were in Grozny, the majority of the killed simply could not cross with carpyuk and fan. Falsification, not science fiction. Those who wrote a criminal case, they did not give themselves the difficulty and place to at least clarify. There is a Hero of Russia allegedly killed by Karpyuk and Klykh, who blew himself up with a grenade at the entrance to Grozny. But neither Karpyuk nor Klykh was there, they have an alibi. They admitted everything. For several months, electricity, hunger, cold, attentive, thoughtful investigators who worked with these two Ukrainians, as they had previously worked with militants or with suspect militants in the Caucasus, they got recognition from them. Not only is the confessions, Klyma just went crazy with torture. It was impossible to do anything. I spoke in court as a witness, trying to bring our examination to the court. No, 20 and 22 years old. One in the Chelyabinsk region, the other in the polar Urals. These are Stalinist methods, Stalin's accusations and Stalin's terms. What to do with them now?

Mikhail Sokolov: Change. The only thing that is probably possible, Ukraine will somehow achieve an exchange.

Alexander Cherkasov: This is a separate plot, how much Russia and Ukraine can be interested in this process to go. But this is a terrible thing. Nearby is a wonderful Moscow, covered with tiles, nearby restored formidable with skyscrapers in the place of ruins. Everything is fine, everything is fine, only a brass band in the park, which played in some 1937. Against this background, a nightmare occurs. Another thing is that no one especially knows about this nightmare, and those who know have come to terms with this nightmare.

Mikhail Sokolov: According to Sentsov, there is also torture. If I am not mistaken, Afanasyev, who has already returned to Ukraine, it is clear that he stipulated Sentsov under torture.

Alexander Cherkasov: And Sentsov was tortured. This is a fabricated business. Other Crimean affairs are fabricated either in a similar way or fabricated, for example, they judge the Crimean Tatars for belonging to Hizb Ut-Tahrir. There was a kind of reserve. “Hizba”, which since 2003 have been judged in Russia for belonging to this organization, in 2003 it was recognized by the Supreme Court of Russia of the terrorist, they don’t consider the Hizbas anywhere in the world of “Hizbas”, many have left for Crimea. And now there is just a clearing, you can go, collect, arrest, judge. After all, they just judge for belonging to this organization. This is on the conveyor.

Still, I note, the Medzhlis of the Crimean Tatar people was recognized as an extremist organization. Together with the regional medical facilities, up to two thousand people are members of an extremist organization. Here is a field for work, here is a field for obtaining rewards and stars. The car works, not that it was very strained intellectually. One of my acquaintances of the Moscow Crimean Tatars said that the FSB officer who supervised him before leaving on a business trip to the Crimea asked: what are your Crimean Tatars? This indicates, on the one hand, that the comrade was a little in Chechnya before, and on the other, that he somehow does not know about the Crimean Tatars.

Pavel Litvinov: The Russian terror beyond the borders is more and more. What is happening in Syria, mass killings, Russian weapons, all diplomatic support. Today, even with a ambiguous regime in America, Trump cannot be expected to be a serious confrontation of what Russia is doing in Syria.

Mikhail Sokolov: The former President of Poland, the Nobel Laureate of the World of the World, Leh Valens proposed to award this award, he has the right to nominate Oleg Sentsov. "I am nominating Sentsov to the Nobel Prize of the World, since he embodies all these ideals that at one time led him himself in the struggle for the future of the world. He peacefully opposed the annexation of his native Crimea by Russia." Can this help to somehow promote a little international campaign around Sentsov?

Pavel Litvinov: I hope. I do not really believe in it, but the very fact that Leh Valens, such a famous figure, can help, I want to hope.

Mikhail Sokolov: Vladimir Konstantinovich, also about this plot terrible with Sentsov. Maybe in England they will hear this call of Valens, maybe some kind of campaign will arise? Still, now British society, as I understand it, is concerned about what was in Salisbury, with all sorts of different Russian, to put it mildly, terrorist actions.

Vladimir Bukovsky: It’s good that Valensa took such a step in support of Sentsov, this is wonderful, thank you very much. The fact is that now the atmosphere here is the political very good for such campaigns. That is, the campaign may be organized, but whether there will be any effect. The fact is that now the Russian authorities have lost almost everything, mass sanctions against them, they have been raised from everywhere. They, in fact, do not really have something to lose. Public pressure in this sense does not create any threat to them. Therefore, the effectiveness of the campaign is more likely at the moment when the Kremlin authorities will make attempts to get out of isolation, look for some exits, then one of the conditions may be the release of political prisoners, because of which Sentsov holds a hunger strike, and so on.

But today, no specific negotiations are underway. There is nothing especially to lose Moscow, this is also a minus, oddly enough. On the other hand, the exchange is the first thing that comes to mind is to try to find an exchange option. But again, the exchange depends on how much Moscow wants to get rid of, how much Sentsov creates a problem. And since public opinion against them, in England, especially after Salisbury, all the more here they can not particularly lose anything, they are quite clearly not like here. So the moment is not quite successful for the campaign. I am afraid that, despite the good course of Valens, this will not result in a large campaign, especially in a successful campaign.

Mikhail Sokolov: The Soviet Union also looked like an adamant monster, such a block, but still periodically even in Brezhnev times, and in Khrushchev, by the way, there were also cases, some people were able to pull some kind of contacts, on approaches to management. What do you think, now why are some moves from Merkel, the French president Macron do not work?

Vladimir Bukovsky: I say, now a slightly different atmosphere. The Soviet Union looked impregnable, unyielding, but in reality he had something to lose. He had an international labor movement, which was also heterogeneous, there were Euro-communists, to whom they had to do some kind of concessions. The main thing was socialist, social-democratic movements, on which they were very relied on in their campaigns for peace, for disarmament and so on, with which they needed to maintain mutual understanding. And those, in turn, were unhappy with such obvious violations of human rights, they exerted some pressure on Moscow. Now there is no such situation. Now there are no such forces in the West that could put pressure on Moscow. Moscow has practically no allies, so they have nothing to lose especially. This is trouble. But this will not be infinity, sooner or later it will be necessary to get out of isolation, they will look for ways. Here it is just that the West does not forget about our prisoners.

Mikhail Sokolov: It turns out that the pressure from the outside of the authorities in Russia is inefficient.

Alexander Cherkasov: I'm not sure that it is so ineffective. One with England, with Germany and France, another. Last October, two deputy chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people, two convicted sick old people were released and transferred to Turkey. True, then it turned out that they were not just transmitted. In Istanbul from the court, not out of the investigation, they released, transferred to Russia in exchange of two leaders of the terrorist network, which there shot Chechen emigration there. There was someone to change, but there was a political will and there was a partner, not a lady, pleasant in every way, but Erdogan.

With England, the relationship is like that of Baron Munchausen: we look - declare war or not, what we have there according to the diary. But with Germany and France, relations are a little different. So there are channels, but what will come of it, Allah Versi.

Another thing is that the problem of political prisoners in Russia is the problem of Ukrainian political prisoners in Russia, it was a problem for the same Europe, for these very countries. And here is the problem. In the days that you were talking about, there was a certain one not that a united front, although he was, but a single understanding of the situation.

Mikhail Sokolov: There is only one under Carter, and under Nixon, probably, another was still different-these are different approaches.

Alexander Cherkasov: Now, when the Kremlin has a "ring strategy", which is trying to quarrel everyone and disconnect, it works a little. Brexit, Trump, Poland, all this works. Unfortunately, such a single understanding, first of all, supports on values, if we already started talking about the crankcase, supports on the value of human rights and the understanding that political prisoners are not good and it is impossible, this is not, this is at the tenth point on the agenda. The same with wars. Pavel Mikhailovich said about Syria, so Syria is not the first thing that is. Before Syria, there was Ukraine, before Ukraine, Georgia, before that the second and first Chechen wars. A series of war crimes, crimes against humanity remaining unpunished and forgotten and forgiven. This chain of organized impunity has now reached Syria. It would seem that the conclusion is simple.

Mikhail Sokolov: I would say she reached the UK with chemical weapons, and before that with the radioactive.

Alexander Cherkasov: Back in 2006, when our tea with Vladimir Konstantinovich unsuccessfully drank a common acquaintance. And then it got away with it.

Mikhail Sokolov: The murder of Litvinenko was somehow furious.

Alexander Cherkasov: It would seem that the lesson is simple: no need to cover with a carpet. But from the layouts of current policy and current compromises, it turns out that it is easier to forget, it is easier to remove from the agenda. Therefore, it is difficult, it can be more complicated than in classical times, when Pavel Mikhailovich and his associates fought for human freedom and human rights.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now a sad thing - Senator McCain passed away, who, largely in his activity, relied on values. In the modern American establishment, there is someone to continue his business or will the current administration really keep these issues in tenth place?

Pavel Litvinov: The current administration is so destructive in relation to all values, without even going beyond the boundaries of America, which is simply difficult to expect something. I think that from this administration we can expect only the worst. They have no desires and needs to move in this direction. The fact that Putin implied implied by Trump’s best friend is not even directly said, a lot of evidence that Trump received support from him. Therefore, you do not have to think that Trump has at least some interest, so that someone is released from our political prisoners, absolutely not. From such a type of people like Trump, I would rather say Erdogan, who can sometimes support Crimean Tatars, for example.

Mikhail Sokolov: And in the Congress, are there any people in the Senate?

Pavel Litvinov: There are democrats, they have no power so far. The Republican Party simply crumbled, it does not exist - this is the Trump party, in which there are no values. There are individual people who say something. Most of them just like McCain, several months ago, said that they would not be advanced. The rest are silent. Democrats will certainly speak. In this situation, it is not enough to expect from them. Although after the elections, when there is some kind of change in dynamics, this is possible.

Mikhail Sokolov: I want to turn to another topic - this is the already mentioned Chechen Republic. Such a strange mystical subject of the Russian Federation, rather in confederate relations with the center or in a personal union with President Putin. There was a statement by Mr. Kadyrov, the head of the Chechen Republic, where he threatens human rights activists, equates them to terrorists, promises to close access to Chechnya for them. Alexander, is it really a direct and clear threat that is already being implemented or is it a certain concussion in the future or simply to limit the entry of those who are concerned about the observance of human rights in this region?

Alexander Cherkasov: Firstly, this is a direct and obvious threat. Secondly, it was not expressed for the first time. Thirdly, it was implemented. Actually, in January, Ramzan Kadyrov, speaking to the Chechen security officials, to the leadership of the Russian Guard and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, said about the same thing that here we will not allow this activity, that we will persecute not only human rights defenders, but also relatives of all those who carry the burdock from the hut. And to those who are injected in the neighboring republics and are trying to work from there, we will break the spinal ridge. This was said the day after the burning of our "Memorial" office "in Nazran in Ingushetia. A few days later they set fire to our office in Dagestan, for fidelity they still called, wrote SMS, explaining that this was a warning that if you continue, burn the office with people. True, the investigation on our statements was not successful. So nothing new is said, the same thing is repeated.

Ramzan Kadyrov somehow does not have to doubt the seriousness of the intentions of Ramzan Kadyrov. No, in court in Shali, in Grozny, I just returned from there, the court continues. In Shali, where only recently there were attacks on police officers, where they report the detention of a large number of adolescents in connection with these attacks, where it is clear that we can find us in court, because no one can be addressed, because the newspaper human rights activists are stigmatized: you will complain, you will be worse.

Mikhail Sokolov: What will they do?

Alexander Cherkasov: Anything. The fact of the matter is that after the murder of Natasha Estemirova in 2009, people have already ceased to turn largely, only in extreme cases. You can't protect yourself, how will you protect us?

Mikhail Sokolov: Are they just running from Chechnya?

Alexander Cherkasov: Someone runs, and someone does not even run. This is a fear that paralyzes people. It is very bad there, it is very difficult. Everything is wonderful there with Ayuba. One by one, several police officers are performed, they say that they never wore a green uniform, despite the fact that we have photographs in this very green form from their social networks, we never drove cars with the letters of the GBR - a quick response group, and did not wear such chevrons. Namely, people with such chevrons, people in such machines actually delayed Ayuba when his business was fabricated. The entire composition of the patrol service of one of the district departments passes witnesses, one by one they pronounce the memorized words: no, I don’t remember, I don’t know. It's sad. These are hefty men, a Chechen policeman, as a Chechen action movie - this is a smart man, a man with large showers. And here they say and it is clear that they are uncomfortable to say this. Someone is given voluptuousness, but most is inconvenient. For them, to some extent, it’s a shame that not quite of their own free will. I can’t imagine such a year 15-25 ago. This is really a very special place.

But on the other hand, a lot went from there, all the diverse special forces and “polite people”, who later marked at other hot spots, passed through Chechnya. The practice of violent disappearance, in general, the terror of the state, it was quite spent in Chechnya. And now we have no messages in exactly the same way, no complaints from Donbass. It was dangerous to work for reporters in Chechnya, but now in another territory where our local "polite" or not very polite people operate - journalists were killed in Africa. This is also the links of one chain. And in Chechnya, a lot happens as it is later realized in the rest of Russia. Here, on the contrary, we are inextricably linked.

Mikhail Sokolov: In general, such a training ground. Vladimir Konstantinovich, do Ramzan Kadyrov see this activity in the West?

Vladimir Bukovsky: Here society is well informed, although there is no great interest, interest in Russia as such, its problems are very small. Sentsov’s case is well known. The whole situation with Kadyrov is more or less known. Information is now quite good, but the desire to do something and ways to do something here is not particularly observed. The very topic of human rights has gone now, it ceased to be topical, as it was in the 1970-80s, it is somewhere in the third way. Now economic sanctions, boycotts, blockade have come ahead. Somewhere, the calculation that the Moscow regime will not withstand all this. How true these calculations are is a discussion issue. And how much it can take. Very little are engaged in the specifics of political prisoners.

Mikhail Sokolov: Today we did a survey, asked people how they react to Kadyrov’s statements.

Poll on the streets of Moscow

Mikhail Sokolov: Pavel Mikhailovich, your reaction? Look, no one supports Kadyrov.

Pavel Litvinov: No one. It is very joyful to hear these voices. The word "human rights activist" in our time did not exist at all.

Mikhail Sokolov: A positive image of a human rights activist was created.

Pavel Litvinov: Absolutely.

Alexander Cherkasov: In a narrow circle of limited people.

Mikhail Sokolov: On Moscow Street, an absolutely random sample.

Alexander Cherkasov: They say, "everything was specially rented in specially rented apartments."

Mikhail Sokolov: This is all absolutely without any clip, everything is absolutely as it is. The problem is that people like human rights activists, but the state does not seem to like it. You are now "Foreign Agent", "Memorial".

Alexander Cherkasov: For four years, as included in this list.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now I read another vile news, excuse me: the Ministry of Justice offers to clarify the relevant law, he is called the "Law of the Serclans" some who can break all the relations of the civil sector in Russia with the world. Those who have joint projects with foreign civilian organizations will absolutely everyone will be “foreign agents”. Consider financing not only grants, but also orders. Register an extrajudicly fasting procedure for suspension of NGO activities for very wide grounds. By the way, as the expert writes, it applies not only to the money of the United States, but in general, any foreign money and citizens of all countries who have imposed personal sanctions. They want to expand the basis for the recognition of NGOs "undesirable" not only with the threat of the constitutional system, but the threat of the interests of Russia. Alexander, are you as one of the leaders of the Memorial, what do you say is a really serious threat?

Alexander Cherkasov: About six years ago, when in 2012 the law on "foreign agents" adopted that everyone, Kaput, would soon be closed and rolled up. But six years passed, we somehow with great difficulty, engaged in a large extent protecting ourselves, and not someone else, we continue to work. There will be some other laws, but it is very difficult to task. In the end, why scare yourself? It turns out that all these six years you could work. By the way, someone spoke in the year 2000-2001, that with the advent of Putin there is no civil society, there are no work opportunities, you need to turn everything off. Then Oberton was added: who remained, those, therefore, the Kremlin agents. Because how else to survive in this very country?

Если в классический период, когда Павел Михайлович с Ларисой Иосифовной писали свое письмо к мировой общественности, что-то удалось сделать, если кому-то удалось сделать сборник "Процесс четырех", до этого Гинзбургу "Белую книгу" по делу Синявского и Даниэля, потом "Хроника текущих событий". При этом люди садились, получали реальные сроки. По сравнению с этим сейчас у нас гораздо больше возможностей и гораздо лучше условия. Нам, конечно, можно изображать из себя героев, но герои – это те, кто сейчас сидит – Дмитриев,Оюб Титиев. У нас пока эти возможности есть, пока их не отобрали, наверное, мы будем пытаться что-то делать.

Михаил Соколов: Мне кажется, что лучше бы они и не сидели. В конце концов Владимир Буковский много сделал, находясь в Советском Союзе, но не меньше сделал, находясь за границей. Да и Павел Михайлович тоже, вы тоже там времени не теряли.

Павел Литвинов: Я старался. Владимир Константинович замечательных достиг результатов в своих контактах с европейскими деятелями. Безусловно, мы пытались и до сих пор пытаемся двигаться в этом направлении. Было интересно, что когда ввели войска в Чехословакию, я хорошо помню разговоры: раз они ввели войска в Чехословакию, завтра они нас всех арестуют, и больше ничего не будет.

Михаил Соколов: А Солженицын тогда не стал выступать, потому что он боялся, что захватят его рукописи.

Павел Литвинов: Это отдельное великое дело, мы не будем в это входить. Отмечу, что возникла инициативная группа, возникло Хельсинское движение, развилась деятельность Андрея Сахарова, масса вещей произошла, несмотря на аресты, несмотря на то, что сотни тысяч людей были арестованы за этот период. 20 лет прошло, и Советский Союз исчез. Некоторые считают, я не буду это комментировать, что диссиденты как-то помогли этому разрушению. В этом смысле сейчас появляются такие группы, как "ОВД-Инфо", молодые ребята. Несмотря на весь ужас того, что делают власти, что происходит с Титиевым, с Дмитриевым, крымскими татарами, я не буду весь список приводить, появляются люди, которые что-то делают. Навального арестовывают каждый раз на месяц, на две недели, но миллионы его последователей по всей стране.

Михаил Соколов: Люди собираются все равно выйти 9 сентября, независимо от того, сидит он или не сидит.

Павел Литвинов: Это не дает мне возможности сказать, что я пессимист. Хотя, как говорится в старом анекдоте, не доживу.

Михаил Соколов: Владимир Константинович, я тут вспомнил Солженицына, подумал, а не реализует ли современная власть в год столетия Солженицына, скажем так, ряд его идей?

Владимир Буковский: Они выхолостили все, что могли. У меня сокамерник в Ростове пытается добиться разрешения поставить памятник Солженицыну, все-таки это его родина в Ростове-на-Дону. Нет, не дают власти, все заблокировали полностью, никак пробить не может.

Что касается ужесточения преследований, по нашему опыту оно, как правило, не приводит к ожидаемым результатам. Всегда появляются новые люди, находятся новые способы, новые методы. Дальнейший зажим, я думаю, никаких результатов не принесет. А в негативном смысле, видите, улица реагирует негативно на попытку в Чечне запретить правозащитную деятельность. То есть это негативное отношение к власти населения добавит, а плюсов много не даст.

Михаил Соколов: Тут, видимо, еще так называемая "пенсионная реформа" негативного отношения к власти, безусловно, добавит. Власть же тоже работает. То же дело Дмитриева связано с попыткой фальсификации истории, ее советизации, создание виртуального образа хорошего советского, что только враги убивали, а сама советская власть и славные чекисты никого не расстреливали.

Александр Черкасов: Тут есть еще один аспект. Оказывается, в России есть только один батальон, который занимается этими поисковыми работами. Вообще в местах боев лежат еще миллионы останков не захороненных со времен войны солдат. И этот батальон переброшен в Карелию с целью доказать, что это не немцы поляков, а финны красноармейцев постреляли. О главной задаче памяти неизвестных солдат забыли.

Если же вернуться к тому, о чем говорил Владимир Константинович, действительно улица не очень довольна, и улица за последнее время сменилась. Если протест 2011–12 года – это были люди, вдруг возбудившиеся после выборов, когда у них отняли право выбора, когда выяснилось, что Путин с Медведевым уже обо всем договорились, кто кого сменит и еще фальсификации. Дело в том, что о предыдущих 10 годах они вопросов не задавали по той простой причине, что они жили в этой стране и несут ответственность и за то, что происходило, и за свое молчание.

Михаил Соколов: "Никогда мы не жили так хорошо, как при царе Владимире Владимировиче", благосостояние росло.

Александр Черкасов: С прошлого года на улицу выходят молодежь. Они тоже жили в стране все эти годы, кто-то из них родился при Путине. Только они за это точно не отвечают, и они могут спросить со своих родителей, как-то не в 1945-м, а в 1960-е молодежь спрашивала со своих родителей во Франции коллаборационистской, в Германии, которая неплохо вроде бы жила, автобаны строили. Сейчас приходит другое поколение.

Михаил Соколов: А им про 1990-е годы говорят, во всем виноваты 1990-е годы. Слышали Путина только что?

Александр Черкасов: Если говорить про регионы, то да, действительно, те, кто работает с регионами, говорят: какой зажим и общая смерть, там расцвет общественной инициативы, которую давят, душат, но очень много новых людей. Поэтому поводов для того, чтобы петь старую арию "кровавая заря авторитаризма вновь встает", а кто сказал, что будет легко? Кроме того, август августом, я другую дату назову – 13 декабря 1981 года, военное положение в Польше и интернирование тысяч человек. Один мой покойный друг пан Марек Новицкий, участвовавший тогда и в составлении документов в августе 1980 года в Гданьске, и потом, сказал, что у нас тоже было ощущение, что все закончилось, а оно не закончилось. Оказывается, все только началось. Они продолжали свою работу все 1980 годы, и у них что-то получилось. Поэтому не стоит заранее закрывать за собой занавес, представление продолжается.

Михаил Соколов: Я тоже тогда буду в каком-то смысле оптимистом. Я взял сегодняшнюю новость и сейчас прочитаю: "Власти Петербурга приостановили выселение правозащитной организации "Мемориал" из офиса на Разъезжей улицы, до 9", – сообщил губернатор города Георгий Полтавченко в ответ на обращение депутата Заксобрания от "Яблока" Бориса Вишневского. Работы по расторжению договора аренды приостановлены. Комитетом проводятся дополнительные работы в отношении помещения. Результаты губернатор пообещал сообщить до конца декабря. Вот видите, попытка вас там уконтрапупить не удалась.

Александр Черкасов: Главное, что там сами не поднимают кверху лапки или руки, продолжают работать прежде всего. Ведь не только борьбой за свои права занят "Мемориал" в Санкт-Петербурге, а помощью тому же Дмитриеву, реальной исторической работой. Сейчас будет годовщина начала Красного террора, сто лет, они эту годовщину будут отмечать. Кстати, они нашли у подножья стены Петропавловской крепости жертв первых большевистских расстрелов еще 1917 года. История в одну непрерывную линию сливается. Говорить, что на нас она закончится, было бы немножечко нескромно.

Михаил Соколов: Павел Михайлович, дайте нам еще каплю оптимизма в финал.

Павел Литвинов: Я отмечу, что в 1960-е годы среди сотрудников Дубчека был человек по имени Павел Млынарж, один из молодых активистов. Когда-то он жил в общежитии с Горбачевым, они о чем-то разговаривали, какие у них были взгляды – непонятно. Но Млынарж вместе с Дубчеком начали "чехословацкую весну". Мы знаем, чем она кончилась.

Но через 20 лет произошло падение коммунизма под руководством Горбачева. Конечно, это нельзя сравнить успехи этого, но все-таки коммунизма нет, политзаключенные того времени были выпущены. Поэтому мы еще можем поставить одну галочку, что история идет и идет не так плохо, хотя медленно.