“The most important thing is tomorrow. Future"

Interview by Lech Valensa, who nominated Oleg Sentsov to the Nobel Prize

The legendary electrician of the Gdan Shipyard, the leader of the Solidarity union, Polish President in 1990-1995 Lech Valens nominated Oleg Sentsov to the Nobel Prize of the World. He himself received this award in 1983, during martial law in Poland, shortly after the internation. Today, the Valenese office is located on the territory of the same shipyard, near the passing number two, where the striking were gathered. It was with that strike that the “solidarity” began, which brought Poland at first to military position, and then to freedom. And "at the head of the column" was Leh Valens. He calls himself the happiest person in the galaxy, because he was able to defeat communism.

On September 29, Lech Valens will turn 75 years old. The correspondent of Novaya met with him in order to talk about Sentsov, about Russia, Belarus and Ukraine before the anniversary. And he talked about Poland all the time. About free Poland. And about yourself, and about you and me.

- Thank you for the nomination of Oleg Sentsov to the Nobel Prize of the World. Why did you decide to do this?

-Yes, simply because his desire to free the Ukrainian brothers and the struggle against the methods that Russia uses in Ukraine deserves all support. I want to help him be released. I understand perfectly well that holding a hunger strike is painful. I myself announced hunger strikes many times. This is especially difficult in the first phase. Then, of course, weakness, headache intensifies, but the human hunger itself ceases to torment.

- I remember how in 2007 you nominated the world and the first head of the independent Belarus Stanislav Shushkevich to the Nobel Prize and the first head of the independent Belarus.

- I did everything and continue to do everything to take place. But, unfortunately, they are far from always awarded those who deserve - this is this world. In general, the Nobel Prize of the World is, of course, primarily a reward for the struggle, for its methods, for principles, like gratitude. But at the same time, this prize obliges the laureate to continue the struggle, to go the same road.

- A few years ago, we met in Warsaw at the ceremony of presenting the premium established by you - the Solidarity Prize, or Valeny award, as it is called. Then Zhanna Nemtsova became the laureate, and you handed her along with Polish President Bronislav Komorovsky. That is, it was your joint project with the authorities. What will happen to the Solidarity Prize now?

- The prize remains, and I hope that we will come to the right decision.

- It is unlikely that you and the current government can continue to cooperate. They say that the actions of the ruling coalition sometimes resemble witch hunting - including, by the way, with respect to you personally.

- And so and not so. You need to understand the era in which we live. One era associated with the division of peace into blocks and systems and building borders between states has died: Europe blows borders and unites currencies. But when one era dies, another immediately begins. And if the former was the era of the Earth - war, establishing borders, enslavement, liberation - then the current era is completely different, if not opposite in content. This is an era of intelligence, information and globalization - there is a level of levels and the opening of borders. But that, the former, was ordered: structures, programs, institutions worked. And this one is not streamlined yet. And we are now between them. One era has gone, the second is still on the way. And this short gap in a historical scale I call the time of the word. At first-a word, then it will become something tangible. But first, it needs to be found, “disabled”, butt. And it’s good that there are Trumps and Kacinsky, because they force us to discuss how this world should look. That era was arranged differently, all states were separate, and now we are building united Europe. But for this, first of all, you need a foundation uniting all of us. Then, when we agree and agree on the foundation, the question will arise about the general economic system. These are very important things that do not tolerate demagogy and populism, but requiring serious discussion: the state of Europe is a very overall thing. We left the era of wars, not believing anyone. And you need to learn to believe each other again. But the question just arises: will we be wise in these negotiations, will we be able to believe - either we will argue and disperse, we don’t come to anything. In the second case, the anarchy will begin and the devil knows what. This is what today's situation looks like.

- You became the president of Poland under the Soviet Union ...

- ( interrupted. ) I was a revolutionary who was supposed to lead Poland to freedom. I had to compromise, and my compromise was fatal for the Communists. That in the USSR, that in the then Poland, the Communists were in power by a majority in power. Democracy seems to be, but in reality it is not. And I had to agree to something that I would not agree to in ordinary life, so that this is the next day this majority would disappear. I agreed on a half -truth in order to get to the truth the next day.

- Did you feel the threat from the Soviet Union then?

- I thought as an electrician and understood that with the development of humanity it would not be necessary to strangle more in closed countries and provinces. Doors will open the technique. At that time, the first satellite antennas appeared. So, the permission to install the antenna was supposed to give the Ministry of the Interior. I canceled all these stupid restrictions, because I understood: the world is developing in this direction, the technique does what people could not do, and the only question is when this time of the open doors comes and what price humanity will pay for it.

- And now, when the USSR is not, but there is Russia, the situation has changed?

- You need to understand: Russia is a big country. There has never been democracy and freedom. Russia should always be surrounded by enemies. If the enemy was not in reality, he was invented. And therefore, in the Democratic League, Russia has been behind the rest of the years fifty. In any other league, it can look good against the other people. I don’t want to say anything, Russia is changing, like the whole world. She just does it very slowly. Russia is a strong state, and it is possible to accelerate its movement towards democracy only if the whole world is in solidarity. If the world were jointly, it would be possible to avoid war with Ukraine. But time is lost, blood spilled. I have already said that the era of intelligence and globalization is approaching. Its basis is leveling levels and opening borders. And the faster this will happen, the greater the benefit for everyone. So Putin’s concept is losing. He must understand that this is the path of large losses. If we want to accelerate the development of events, we must be in solidarity.

When the whole world began to discuss what to do with Russia, I publicly talked about a possible plan. We choose, for example, ten people - wise, educated, knowing Russia. We plant them under NATO or EU. And let them make a list of ten points in different areas. Each country has its own interests in relations with Russia. And each will receive this list with a wish: we need to help Russia become democratic, let's accelerate it. Here is the list for you, choose. Do not sell something important, do not buy something important. Nothing complicated, but effective, to be solid. And if everyone agreed to this, we would calmly implement this program. It is desirable that in this group there are at least five people to whom Vladimir Putin is tolerant. And let this five call this five every day and asked: “Well, how much have you lost today? And we are so much. ” And once he would be ready to hear "you lose, we are losing, it's time to finish it." And then there would be a chance. And so - you yourself see that we all have.

- You say that Russia needs to help. I am from Belarus and, of course, I can’t help but ask: why was the world never in joint to help my country? It is not as big as Russia, there is not even Siberia in it.

-Belarus is so deeply subordinated to Russia that de facto Russia is managing you. Belarus is so addicted economically and politically that it will be even more difficult for you to free yourself. And Europe will not help you, because it itself has too many problems. When they are resolved, then, perhaps, in Europe they will remember that Belarus is part of it, not a distant island. But there are too many problems, without which it is pointless to try to change something. For example, how to help Belarus with fuel? After all, if you really turn around and go to Europe, you will be redeemed by gas and oil supplies so that you will run back and ask Russia for forgiveness. That is, Europe should at least prepare the economic program of assistance.

- Nevertheless, European countries have economically support Lukashenko for many years, calling it the last dictator of Europe.

- I know Lukashenko, I saw him a couple of times. He is cunning and cowardly - this is his philosophy. Europe, alas, is what is, and hopes, supporting it, maximally moved away from Russia.

- You have become the president of Poland almost simultaneously with the acquisition of independence by the former Soviet republics. You talked with the same first chapters of new states. Was it easy for you to find a common language?

- We all perfectly understood in what time and in what situation we were. We had unequal starting conditions, but there was no critical difference. And then I dreamed of how we, together with Belarus and Ukraine, will join the European Union and NATO. But in 1995, I lost the election, and the concept changed. It was a mistake, but it happened. And now we all need to wait for freedom for Belarus and Ukraine.

- I perfectly understand that this second is impossible to achieve a radical change in the situation in Russia and in Belarus. But can the world become solidarity at least in order to save Oleg Sentsov and other political prisoners?

- Solidarity is not the name of our trade union. Solidarity is a simple philosophy. You can’t drag a heavy load-seek help, ask someone to bring it with you. For us, the Soviet Union and Communism were a heavy load. Monstrous severity. I understood that Poland alone in order to get rid of this cargo was not enough. And even European solidarity is not enough. Here is world solidarity - just right, this is what you need. True, when we reached the Svoboda station, the solidarity ended. There were new, completely different problems that demanded solidarity - in the city, in the country, in Europe. These are all different types of solidarity, not the same as our then.

- Europe itself is in a crisis. Do you see the way out?

- At first, everyone enthusiastically opened the borders, introduced a single currency, everyone got the right to move freely and choose any of the almost three dozen countries for life and work - and when all this succeeded, they suddenly got used to: “Cholera, we have different foundations! We have a completely different thinking! " Okay, let's agree on a general foundation. We will find something like ten commandments and write down the general constitution, and let it unite us all. But then the same thing will begin in relation to economic systems: we went to the unification, and all world wealth still in our hands 10 percent, and not 90. And then, again, the October Revolution? Or it is better to sit down at the negotiating table and say: guys, your 90 percent not work too efficiently, let's think together. Let's try to include your capabilities in the work so that you earn, and we. We can make money - good. No - a revolution. This, of course, is demagogy. But the problem is also that no one trusts anyone. Every day, European states send several more people to Brussels to follow whether united Europe will deceive their country. As a result, the bureaucracy is growing, and the situation does not change. Surely in the world there was already a civilization that destroyed itself. I would not want to reach the moment when Europe is mired in clarifying relations, and Putin, meanwhile, will destroy the world.

- The whole civilized world helped your union "Solidarity". And now, in the era of the Internet and Free Europe, solidarity has evaporated like communism. A fresh example: in Minsk, the leaders of the independent trade union of the electronic industry have been sentenced to “chemistry”, but no one in the world has been sentenced to “chemistry”. Where did you go at least professional solidarity?

- Solidarity ends where freedom begins. And then - democracy, discussions, free elections. All this should help the development of both Europe and each individual country. How do we behave? Do we want freedom or not? What can be achieved by planting trade union leaders? And then it begins: where are the intellectuals, where is the solution to the problems? We think of old categories and act in old parties. We are seriously discussing: what did Pis say? ( “Law and justice” - the ruling party in Poland. - I.Kh. ) And what did the “platform” answer ( “Civil Platform” - a liberal party in the opposition. - I.Kh. **)? Nowadays, when people want a convenient life, they do not want to pay contributions and attend meetings, you need to build and organize society differently. Remember what happened in Poland in the last election. Everyone saw that the country is developing well, goes forward. It is clear that it will be even better further. And people did not know who to choose, because they had long ceased to be interested in political squabbles. They do not go to the polls, and as a result, what we have in Poland today happen. And nothing can be done. Now I would take stones and dump it all, but we don’t want it, because we have democracy and free elections. And that freedom is no longer there. I don’t want to say anything - we reached the freedom perfectly. And then they relaxed and began to make mistakes: they were poorly chosen, they were not active, and allowed themselves to be manipulated.

In Belarus, by the way, they also chose Shushkevich at first - even when you had a parliamentary republic. It would seem excellent, you have democracy, choose on. So no, they chose Lukashenko. So have claims to yourself, and not just to the world community. We also chose the Kachinsky. But not to Trump to make claims.

- Why not? Trump too.

- No, only to yourself! Trump destroys an imperfect system. Kacinsky also destroy the imperfect system. And here I agree with them. But every time we are trying to start all over again. I believe that every elections should clearly provide for what can be done and what is impossible so that the reforms do not harm. How, tell me, free Poland could write that the people have the right to a referendum, with the post “But the Senate should approve it”?! Free Poland, cholera is clear ... However, the mistakes of free Poland are my mistakes. Trump has nothing to do with it. He did not destroy solidarity, but ourselves.

- And how to return to solidarity?

“Or choose a king for himself, and then the king will do everything for us.” Or defend freedom and democracy, but seriously. This means organizing, becoming active. Even the largest construction begins with one shovel. Then they put bricks. And we must be patient and build democracy on the brick. Wisdom, calm, elections. I have no other advice.

- In 1982, you were interned ...

- ( Cluses his eyes, depicts loud snoring. ) ... And finally he was able to relax. Sucked out all the time. They followed me around the clock: the door was open, and a guy from the special services was sitting on the threshold. So he got enough sleep - there was nothing more to do.

- How do you see your own role in the future of Poland?

- Listen, I'm an old exhausted person. I was ready to reach the Svoboda station, so that the people would do what they consider necessary, and choose those whom they trust. But since everything does not always go correctly, I am trying to explain how I personally did it. I’m trying to encourage, meet with different people, explain, I say what I consider to be necessary. Since I have headed the struggle many years ago, it is necessary to remind you in the name of which we fought. In the end, I believe that soon Free Poland will win again. And then all those who are trying to destroy it today will answer for it. And I want to be alive and healthy to curse them. So that they ate salted herring every day - and without water.

- I always wondered how a person named Leh Valens feels when he arrives at the Gdan airport named after Lech Valensa. Cognitive dissonance does not happen?

- Never in my life I would not agree to this! But then the elections won SLD ( *Union of Democratic Left Forces. - *I.Kh. ). And in order to prevent them from returning to communism, wherever possible, we installed our own “signs”. That's why I agreed.

- What today, 23 years after your presidency, the most important thing in your life?

- Tomorrow. The most important thing is tomorrow. Future.

- They tell a story about you - I do not know whether this is really a legend. They say that once you, the President of Poland, meeting with US President Bill Clinton, found problems in the White House wiring and tried to fix it.

- It was not at Clinton, but with the English queen. I then looked in the palace and said: “Guys, what are you, you need to urgently repair! A week or two-and there will be a fire. ” They waved their hand: they say, it works - and okay. And two weeks later they called - they really caught fire there.

Gdansk, Poland