Archival project "Radio Liberty this week 20 years ago." The most interesting and significant from the Archive of the Radio Freedom of twenty years ago. Incomplete story. Still living hopes. Could Russia go the other way?

A connoisseur of ancient string instruments, violinist David Barts about the features of the market of musical instruments, about thefts of famous violins and their insurance, about the fate of Russian collections. Author and presenter Natalya Golitsyna. Air September 26, 1998.

Ivan Tolstoy : How much does the Stradivari violin cost? Other ancient tools - Goboi, Flutes, Clarins - are not even close to the string in general, and even more so to the creations of the great Italian master of the 18th century. Connoisseurs claim that they can distinguish between the Straidivar violin from any other, and not only in the concert hall, but also on the radio. Our author Natalya Golitsyna is talking about the values and adventures of violins. Her interlocutor is a London expert, dealer and violinist David Bartov.

David Bartov : Today, in the world, as well as in any market, there is a very strong decline. I think that this, first of all, depends on the financial crisis, which struck both Europe and Asia. From the very beginning of this year, the market is very weak, a significantly smaller number of tools are sold. This does not greatly affect prices, prices remain approximately the same, but the number of instruments sold in the world market has significantly slept.

Natalya Golitsyna : And the market of musical instruments, is it quite extensive, if you compare it with any other?

David Bartov : He cannot be compared with the market, for example, cars already because cars are created constantly on the conveyor, while violins, even those created on the conveyor, are not in demand. The violin is, on the one hand, artisanal work, on the other hand, is the highest art. To date, there are more than six hundred violins of Stradivarius left from the master.

Natalya Golitsyna : And how many violins did it all?

David Bartov : Khil’s assumption - more than two thousand. Hil is the most famous expert of this century, it is a dynasty, which, having existed for about three hundred years officially, ended its existence a few years ago. They are in the wonderful work "Antonio Stradivari: His Life and Work", published at the beginning of the century, determined that Antonio Stradivari made more than two thousand, but less than three thousand tools. Of these, it has been preserved - only violins - over six hundred. The same situation existed as fifty years ago, so, presumably, it would exist fifty years later. The violins of the sufferers will not become more or less, with the exception of very rare cases when the violin disappears. Nevertheless, if we talk about the whole market now, the number of first -class Italian tools is not growing.

"Spanish II" Stradivari (1687-1689) at the exhibition in the royal palace in Madrid

There are modern masters, and not only in Italy who produce violins of a fairly high class. But in order for the violin to reach its best sound, she needs to ripen for 50-60 years. Therefore, today made violins can sound quite good for the orchestrant or young musician, but can not be compared with old Italian violins. And the old ones are a limited amount. Therefore, instruments do not fall, even when the market weakens.

"... In order for the violin to reach its best sound, she needs to ripen for 50-60 years"

Natalya Golitsyna : The number of tools is quite large, and there are many dealers and collectors, participants in this market?

David Bartov : On the one hand, there are a lot, on the other hand, if you compare with the number of customers to works of art or collectors of brands, then there are much less.

Natalya Golitsyna : But how many are there? Thousands, millions, hundreds, dozens?

David Bartov : Several thousand dealers in the whole world, although the number of large ones will be calculated in dozens, and real experts can be counted on the fingers.

Natalya Golitsyna : And despite the fact that approximately how many good tools circulating in the market?

David Bartov : Today it is difficult for me to name some figure, but about 12 years ago, when I worked as a guardian of the fund in Sweden, I made a review of the tool market in general, and in the late 80s it was calculated by approximately five to six billions of dollars. This is the approximate value of all ancient tools made until the end of the last century. Of these, there will be 15 percent on the market. This is a large market.

Natalya Golitsyna : Do Russians take any part in the functioning of the music market?

David Bartov : Of course, they participate. There are a number of dealers who speak Russian, you often hear Russian at auctions in America, in Europe, and in Asia. In the last century, there were not so much dealers as collectors in Russia. For example, Count Yusupov, Count Sheremetev. They were interested in tools, collected them. To date, I know several collectors in Russia, but they are inactive in the Western market, for obvious reasons.

Natalya Golitsyna : What do you mean?

David Bartov : Until recently, they did not have such an opportunity, both because of restrictions and due to the lack of currency.

Natalya Golitsyna : How would you appreciate Russian collections? What exists in Russia? There were good collections. Where did they go?

David Bartov : After the revolution, most of the valuable instruments were handed over to the state selection. The state selection today has a number of wonderful tools. The collection itself is interesting. A few years ago, a book was published in Italy, which is called a "collection of string instruments from the Soviet Union", where the best of these tools were photographed. I was in Moscow several times and visited it. I have not seen all the instruments, because most of the instruments are still in the hands of the musicians. Of course, the safety in cases where they remained in the collections leaves much to be desired. It remains only to hope that the instruments in the hands of the musicians were in better safety.

Cellon Stradivari "Marylebone" (1688) - a pattern on the shell at the top right

Natalya Golitsyna : Are they stealing them?

David Bartov : As everywhere in the world. They steal in Russia too. Last year, two tools belonging to David Oistrach - the Straidivari violin and the Steiner violin was stolen from the museum in Moscow. Both violins were found a little later and returned to the museum.

Natalya Golitsyna : And who stole them? By order or by chance?

David Bartov : And not by order, and not by chance. Two partners decided to produce this theft in order to try to sell these tools in the black market. Fortunately, one of them managed to catch quickly enough, and the other came across six months later, and not in Moscow, but in the Crimea, and only because he was driving on a car without throwing a belt.

Natalya Golitsyna : What affects pricing in the musical market?

David Bartov : In addition to demand and the availability of tools, there are criteria for both quality and antiquity and safety. If the tool is made by a high -class master, who has several dozen tools left today, he lived at the end of the 17th and early 18th centuries, then, of course, the prices for such tools will be calculated in dozens, and sometimes in hundreds and thousands of pounds.

"A good Straidivari violin is like a good house in a good area of London"

Natalya Golitsyna : In your opinion, is the fashion affect the price of the tool?

David Bartov : To some extent affects. I would call it not so much fashion for musical instruments as the ideal of sound. For example, the violins of the Neapolitan school differ in sound from the violins of the Cremon School or, say, the Mantuan school. I noticed that the client from Asia prefers the sound of violins of the Neapolitan school, while in Northern Europe they are less successful. There is also fashion too. For example, the violins of the work of the French master William are somewhat greater in Germany than in other countries. That is, there is demand in other countries, but the price of these tools is slightly higher in Germany. I traced some pattern between the increase in real estate prices in London and the violin from the beginning of the century to today. A good Straidivari violin is like a good house in a good area of London. Today it is about one and a half million pounds. After the Second World War, it was about fifty thousand pounds - as much as a good house in the north of London cost.

The difference is in real estate deposits or a musical instrument. Firstly, the real estate market loses its value depending on the conjuncture or other factors. The violins do not do this. Secondly, you can take the violin with you, unlike real estate. Many years ago, I listened to a program from America, where Dick Kavett interviewed Isaac Stern. He asked him the following question: "Why if there are a lot of Jews among the ten greatest pianists, then among the violinists they are all Jews?" To which Stern replied: "If you imagine a pogrom somewhere in Ukraine, when you need to run, saving your life, then you can take away the creak with you, but the piano is more difficult." Maybe that's why they do not steal the roots.

Natalya Golitsyna : Since we are talking about such serious amounts that you mentioned, then this market should somehow be criminalized. Is there such a problem?

David Bartov : Of course, it exists. Theft is a profession, if not the oldest, then a clear contender for it. But there is some difference between the market of antique things or paintings and violins. Valuable violins are known to dealers and experts much better than works of art. There are no two violins of exactly the same, so you can steal it, it cannot be sold.

Natalya Golitsyna : But the thefts are happening?

David Bartov : Of course, they always took place. The earliest known thefts to me just occurred either in Russia or on the way from Russia to Germany. Ludwig spurs after concerts in Russia at the beginning of the last century, on the way to Germany, lost or stolen the violin of Stradivari.

Natalya Golitsyna : On the territory of Russia?

David Bartov : The story is silent about this. It is only known that the violin was in the case, but the case was not inside the carriage. He was behind, along with bags and other suitcases. Strange enough for such a violinist. Nevertheless, when he arrived home, there was no violin there. Another violin that has disappeared and has not yet appeared, this is the violin of the work of Guadanini, belonging to Henry Venyavsky, a former professor of the St. Petersburg Conservatory. And I can even tell a small story about this. Fifteen years ago, friends called me from Germany and said that it seemed to be a violin. On the same day, I flew to Germany and, having traveled a fairly long way, ended up in an old castle, where, it seemed, every thing was worth a lot of money. But when they brought me a case of very good work, they opened and showed a violin, it was not a violin of Guadanini, it was not an Italian at all. It turned out to be a very simple fake. Until now, the Guadanini violin has not been found.

"I flew to Germany on the same day and, having traveled a fairly long way, ended up in an old castle ..."

They steal, but, as I said, it is almost impossible to sell a high -class violin on the market after theft. Most often, violins are stolen in this little in this in order to sell for some small amount, either drug addicts or small thieves. For example, a few years ago, another Stradivari violin belonging to a very famous French violinist was stolen in Turin. But, in fact, the violin was not stolen, but by the car in which it was lying. The car was available to the imagination of the Italian thief, it was a Porsche sports car, but behind the seat there was also a case in which there was a Stradivari violin. Imagine the surprise of the same thieves the next day, when local newspapers and television announced the theft, of course, Stradivari, not cars. This story ended quite positively for the owner of both the car and the violin. I know that the insurance company that insured this violin agreed with the people who represented this thief, and for a certain amount the violin was returned.

Natalya Golitsyna : Can't you name the name of this violinist?

David Bartov : His name is Pierre Amoyal.

Antonio Stradivari. Illustration. 1921

Natalya Golitsyna : Maybe you will remember any other interesting stories about the thefts and finds of famous or very expensive musical instruments?

David Bartov : The most famous theft of this century occurred in 1936 in New York during the concert of the famous violinist of Bronislav Guberman in Carnegie-Hall. His second violin was stolen, Stradivari was stolen, while Guberman played Warneri (del Jesu). This Stradivarre, the most famous tool, bears the name "Gibson"-this is the name of the person in whose collection the violin was once located. The violin of the work of 1713, in excellent condition and with a wonderful sound. Guberman himself bought it in 1911, that is, by that time he had been using it for 25 years. This violin was insured in the largest insurance company "Lloyd". After unsuccessful attempts to find this violin, Lloyd paid Guberman at that time, about thirty thousand dollars. Until the end of Guberman’s life, this violin was never found. But almost half a century later, in 1985, this violin surfaced in the same New York. One of the little -known brothers by the profession of Huberman, a certain Julian Altman before his death admitted to his wife that the violin, on which he played his whole life, was the very strativarus "Gibson", which he supposedly bought for a hundred dollars from some kind of black man. This violin was returned after the death of Altman, first of all, to Lloyd, but not free. "Lloyd" paid for the find of this tool about 275 thousand dollars of the widow of Julian Altman.

Natalya Golitsyna : That is, as much as at that moment this violin cost?

David Bartov : much less. When tools or very valuable things are lost or steal, any insurance company prefers to pay a smaller amount to the one who finds it, rather than the full amount to the owner. In this case, Lloyd was the owner. Having paid these 275 thousand dollars of Altman’s widow, they betrayed the violin to the famous and, in my opinion, the best expert in the world of Charles Biru in London, after restoration this violin was shown at an exhibition in a crescent and immediately sold to a very famous musician, the first violin of the quartet Amadus, Norbert Brainin.

Natalya Golitsyna : Is the insurance of a good tool expensive?

David Bartov : Not relatively. The violin insurance costs, on average, four tenth percent of the cost of the tool per year. Cello insurance is somewhat more expensive. The most expensive to insure the bow. It depends solely on statistics - how often the tools break. The cello, despite the fact that it is larger than the violin, more fragile precisely because of its size. And with the bow, the situation is this: if a small crack on the violin or cello can be repaired without affecting the cost of the tool, then any crack on the bow greatly affects its cost. Therefore, insurance is more expensive.

Natalya Golitsyna : What violin do you play on? You are a concert dealer.

David Bartov : Today I am not so much a dealer, although I am still engaged in an examination and are a consultant to several companies both in Europe and in Asia. Today I consider myself a violinist more than a dealer. I play two tools. One of them is the work of the Warneri (del Jesu), and for the past two years I have increasingly playing the violin of the work of Amabono Stradivari, this is not Antonio, but his son.

Natalya Golitsyna : I hope you insured them?

David Bartov : Of course, they are both insured, despite the fact that they have to pay a fairly large amount.