Passport

Putin by decree "congratulated" Zelensky. On April 25, Vladimir Putin interrupted the silence on the Ukrainian topic. He called the results of the elections there "the complete, absolute failure of Poroshenko’s policy." Instead of congratulations to the newly elected President of Ukraine Vladimir Zelensky, Russian President Vladimir Putin on April 24 signed a decree “ on the determination of the humanitarian purposes of categories of persons entitled to apply to the citizenship of Russia in a simplified manner .” This right was received by "persons permanently residing in the territories of individual regions of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine" , their statements must be considered within three months.

Vladimir Putin, in particular, announced the provision of citizenship to the residents of the Ordlo: “ When other countries, the neighbors of Ukraine, for many years are already doing this, why Russia cannot do this, especially since people living in the territories of the Donetsk Republic or the Lugansk Republic are in a much more difficult situation than Poles, Romanians or Hungarians in Ukraine? Because they are deprived of elementary human rights from the point of view of receipt It is even difficult for them to move around the territory of Ukraine or third countries, it is even difficult to move around the territory of Russia, they can’t buy a ticket even for a plane or a train. ”

To receive the flow of potential new Russian citizens from the "LPR" and "DPR" in Russia, new premises of the FMS have been prepared. In the Voronezh region, Russian passports will be given to residents of the "LPR", in the Rostov region - "DPR". A number of sources notes that it will be not foreign, as it was in Transnistria and Abkhazia, but internal Russian passports that allow to simplify registration in the Russian Federation and after it to make pensions and benefits possible.

The population of the Russian Federation can increase to a million people. The cost of the maintenance of hundreds of thousands of new pensioners from Donbass can cost the budget of the Russian Federation up to 100 billion rubles a year. The emergence of the mass of residents of the occupied part of Ukraine with Russian passports in the East Donbass creates reasons for their "protection" by the regular army of Russia, the experts write.

The response to Putin’s action is the urgent adoption of the Verkhovna Rada on April 25 by the majority of 278 votes of the law "On ensuring the functioning of the Ukrainian language as a state" in a tough version. It becomes mandatory for state authorities and local self -government, all educational institutions, and service areas. So the program of Petro Poroshenko "Armia, Vira, Mova" is successfully executed in "Interminance".

The elected President Vladimir Zelensky said: “The state project was considered during the electoral cycle, which made it a hostage to political rhetoric. The law was adopted without a preliminary rather wide discussion of the public. More than 2000 amendments were made to the draft law, which indicates a lack of consent in relation to certain provisions even in the Supreme Rada.

Today it is difficult to predict the consequences of the adoption of this law - its final text, taking into account all the amendments, is not yet available. After my employment, the president will be made a thorough analysis of this law to make sure that all the constitutional rights and interests of all citizens of Ukraine are observed in it. As a result of the analysis, to reach in accordance with the constitutional powers of the President of Ukraine in the interests of citizens . "

A new aggravation of the confrontation of Moscow and Kiev was discussed by the diplomat Andrei Fedorov, Ukrainian political scientist Peter Zalmaev, Ukrainian political consultant Alexander Kharebin , Russian political analyst Andrei Okara, economist Sergey Zhavoronkov , journalist Dmitry Olshansky .

Mikhail Sokolov is broadcast.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now it is clear that this distribution of passports of VNA for separatist Yerritories was prepared for at least a few months, perhaps six months, since some rooms are already allocated, and all sorts of instructions are made. Why is this move made right now?

Sergey Zhavoronkov: In my opinion, now Vladimir Putin needs some political technological justification why in Ukraine some villains, Bandera. The old justification associated with Poroshenko, whose victory hoped in the Putin administration, it no longer acts, you need to come up with some new one.

It seems to me that the purpose of these decisions is to provoke the Ukrainian authorities to some sharp concussions that will not change anything practically, but which can be shown on the guestelekanals as evidence that some villains still rule in Ukraine. In my opinion, of course, the main reason for this decree is not a foreign policy, but a domestic political character. The fact is that United Russia was very missing by voters, 2.6 million voters, so many allegedly according to official figures of the so -called republics are contained on their territory. This is about 10% of the votes that United Russia received in 2016 in the parliamentary elections - this is quite decent. Obviously, there will be a result as in Abkhazia, Transnistria, South Ossetia. In Transnistria, for example, 95% voted.

Mikhail Sokolov: I think, in order to have such a result, you need to give money there in one form or another, start paying pensions, financially support what is in a state of devastation.

Sergey Zhavoronkov: There, firstly, they will draw. Because it is a black hole, rallies are prohibited there, there is no observation. The elections of the so -called Emeammister Pushilin and the beekeeper were simply drawn. Secondly, with regard to pensions. In fact, we understand that there are no 2.6 million citizens, about a million pensioners according to official figures in these republics, in fact, there are much fewer there. Pensions that will be written there will be abducted in a large part, and this, by the way, is decent money. I counted today, if we proceed from the fact that there is supposedly a million pensioners-this is a year in a year 155 billion rubles, based on the proportion of pension costs, divided for this number.

Mikhail Sokolov: This is perhaps one of the explanations. Peter, what do you say about this course of Putin, a passport blow to such a relatively stable environment that has been recently?

Peter Zalmaev: I see a parallel process here: on the one hand, Putin initiates this decree, a passport blow, and on the other hand we have a law on the language of Ukraine. Both that, and another is a serious challenge to the newly -made, who has not yet taken over the post of President Vladimir Zelensky. It is clear that for Putin this is such an inspection of an inexperienced not politician.

On the other hand, the law on language can be considered as a kind of Trojan horse, which was dragged by the outgoing President Poroshenko, who, if you remember, formed his entire campaign on three whales - this is the army, language and faith. On the one hand, he fully fulfills all his promises, leaving, on the other hand, he puts such a mine, and maybe not so slowed down for his successor, for which the entire Russian -speaking part of Ukraine voted, which today reacted very ambiguously to this very difficult issue. Firstly, he himself is Russian-speaking, he still has a very serious work to learn the language at the proper level. Secondly, he will need to somehow explain to the electorate that voted for him.

Therefore, this is a very serious challenge for Zelensky. In general, we can say that the decision to issue passports is an old tested tactics of the Kremlin. This exercise control over people that will expand the sphere of Russian occupation and strengthen Russian effective control in the region.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now we will give the floor to Vladimir Putin himself, he loves to explain his decisions, however, sometimes he does it very vulnerably.

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Vladimir Putin on the issuance of passports

Mikhail Sokolov: It was a press conference of Vladimir Putin, his statement in Ukraine. Here, of course, there are certain interesting points.

Andrei, these parallels with Hungary and with other states that provide citizenship, Romania, for example, are they correct or not? Still, in my opinion, there is a clear stretch. They give partly on an ethnic basis, partly by some set of signs, citizenship, but they do not give citizenship to the residents of some separate territory of a neighboring country, which is also occupied by their military units or loyal to them, but in general according to some strange territorial principle. If the line of this front shifts and there will be another configuration of this "special district", will they already provide citizenship in an accelerated manner?

Andrei Fedorov: Firstly, what is provided in Hungary and so on is provided by ethnicity first of all. Because a large number of Hungarian -speaking population is located in the west of Ukraine. Budapest, of course, is interested in the active support of this population not from the point of view of the dismemberment of Ukraine, but from the point of view of maintaining national identity.

As for the DPR and the LPR and all this hype around the passports, I believe that this is actually a secondary issue. Because it is much more important that in the DPR and in the LPR for two years the education system has been built on the Russian education system. This is much more important than passports. Because there is a new generation, new youth is growing, which will not be connected with Ukraine at all, studying already by Russian textbooks, according to Russian standards.

Putin took a very cunning step, because he actually changes this step by this step. That is, he blocks possible steps with this step, including from Zelensky, to make adjustments to the Minsk agreements. This, it seems to me, is much more important for Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Mikhail Sokolov: He insists on the Minsk agreements, on amnesty, on a special status, everything that is frozen.

Andrei Fedorov: For Russia, the worst option, if Zelensky completely agrees to the Minsk agreements, then we will be at a dead end, like Russia. He will block this probability. That is, he translates the Norman format into a discussion to another topic. This is a very correct step from the point of view of politics. Another thing is that he will very negatively perceive both Ukraine and other countries, but from the point of view of politics this is a very cunning step.

Mikhail Sokolov: The step is cunning, and there are simple people. There is a simple Midovskaya woman Maria Zakharova, she today said: "The presidential decree is explained by the fact that the population of these territories became de facto residents of Russia." Thus, in a simple way, the representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs recognizes either the dominion, or the occupation status of these two "republics". Surprisingly, right?

Sergey Zhavoronkov: I agree with this. I would also note that when Putin speaks of some Russians in Donetsk, this is all a lie. Because Putin is completely not worried about Russians in Tajikistan, in Uzbekistan, in Kazakhstan, in Turkmenistan. In Turkmenistan, Russians cannot leave there at all, because there are visiting visas. In fact, in Central Asia there are millions of Russians, they are forced to receive citizenship absolutely on general grounds, five years of residence, and so on. Putin does not care about these Russians, but for some reason the inhabitants of Donbass, who, in fact, in my opinion, are mainly representatives of the sub-ethnic group of the Ukrainian people, they call themselves "Donetsk", not Ukrainian, not Russian, but Donetsk. For some reason, these citizens suddenly should receive Russian citizenship millions.

Mikhail Sokolov: A very strange principle. If a person in one village on one side of the separation line, he will not receive this order simplified, but on the other will receive. If this line moves, this village will become the beneficiary of the project. Just some idiocy.

Sergey Zhavoronkov: That's right. Moreover, as in the case of Crimea at one time, I want to say that it would be nice to ask Russian citizens if they want these many millions of fellow citizens and pay for it. I will give an example of Puerto Rico, the associated territory of the United States, almost four million people, they held a referendum at which 97% spoke in joining the United States, but the United States was in no hurry to take them, although, it would seem, this is a prosperous territory, 80% of the white population, mulattos, and there are very few blacks. Nevertheless, the United States is said: sorry, we are not sure that we should share our budget with you and so on, so still live like that. Nobody asks nothing for Russian citizens, please, there are millions of new fellow citizens and feed them.

Mikhail Sokolov: Andrei, your explanation of these events, which, of course, exacerbate the relationship of Russia and Ukraine, Russia with the Western world? Only Putin is surprised why a negative reaction, others are not surprised.

Andrei Obara: It seems to me that we see highly intellectual trolling, because the actions of Vladimir Putin as the president who issued such a decree are located within the framework of Russian legislation. Each country can do with its citizenship everything that it considers necessary to give it to anyone, regardless of whether certain people are representatives of one or another ethnic group, religious community or someone else. Here, as in the proverb "a cat is a laughter, and the mouse is a tears." Pay attention to the expression on the face of Vladimir Putin, when he spoke about this at a press conference today, he smiled a little ironically because he understood that he was operating in the legal field of the Russian Federation, the situation, they say, is different than in the Crimea.

And really it is different than in the Crimea. Because the citizenship of the Russian Federation, issued in Crimea in 2014, is invalid from the point of view of most countries. Therefore, according to the passports of the Russian Federation issued in the territory of Crimea and Sevastopol, they are not allowed to go anywhere further than North Korea and South Ossetia.

There is a different situation, because we are talking about issuing Russian passports in the Rostov Region, not voluntary and compulsory issuing automatic, as in Crimea it was 5 years ago, but by the personal desire of a citizen. Therefore, there really is a lot of questions.

Whether people who want to become new Russians are aware of, the fact that citizenship is a set of human rights and obligations in relation to the state and the state in relation to man. That is, this means that people of draft age can be drafted into the army, this means that about a million pensioners live in the territory of the LPR, DPR or Ordlo, as it is called otherwise. If these people massively want to become Russian citizens, of course, a big question whether this will withstand the Russian Pension Fund and how much more to increase the retirement age.

We see that there is a place to be that in jurisprudence is called abuse of law, that is, when a particular subject acts as if within the framework of the law, but at the same time, having certain, probably, unfriendly political prerequisites, goals and objectives.

Accordingly, what is the political logic here? It seems to me that there are several messages at once, directed personally to Vladimir Zelensky personally. He also did not manage to declare anything, like the president, only on the Internet he expressed several thoughts about the Donbass, said a few words about Bandera, one word, in my opinion, about the President of the Russian Federation personally, the return flew to him. It is put in a situation of a very difficult choice, choosing precisely further actions. That is, he was clearly made in the Kremlin that his life is unlikely to be as beautiful as he was a comic actor.

Mikhail Sokolov: Peter, it turns out that Putin has not changed and is not going to change his strategic goals, or to force Ukraine to take the DPR, or at least get something like the right of a veto to the decision of Kiev. He is trying to force everything to fulfill the Minsk agreements that were imposed on Ukraine at the time of military defeat. Is there any strategy that can withstand Putin's lines of pressure and rather risky?

Peter Zalmaev: Actually, this was the charm of the virtual campaign of Vladimir Zelensky that he did not have to go into different boring, understandable to all concrete, as for all his positions, specifically that he was going to do either in economics, or in politics, and so on. One of his main promises was to restart the Minsk process.

One of his main accusations towards the opponent was that you say, Peter Alekseevich, that you were such a strong commander in chief, nevertheless, you did not end the war in the Donbass, but I will do this, we will finish together in the Donbass. The Minsk process needs to be reformatting. And all, no one knew what he was talking about. Everyone understands that for lack of anything the better we have what we have. The Minsk process is such an albatross on the neck of Ukraine, alternatives are not actually visible to him.

It is not clear what Mr. Zelensky himself will do in this direction, but now you can hear calls to Zelensky from the political and political science, calls for Poroshenko to unite and can react together with a general statement, with regard to Putin’s decision to issue to residents of the occupied territories. Already today, Ukraine issued a consideration of the issue of the UN Security Council.

Therefore, Ukraine will now be very, very important to demonstrate its unity on this issue. Again, this is a very important test for the newly made president, he cannot afford to swing. Unfortunately, I have not yet seen the path that Ukraine has followed all these years, appeal to international institutions, appeal to Western partners.

Mikhail Sokolov: Andrei, please tell me, does the Kremlin have a chance to somehow advance his Minsk process along the same old rails that are blocked, or can you restart something, replay, maybe with the help of the same Alexander Lukashenko? You are in Belarus recently often.

Andrey Fedorov: And in Kiev too. This is not the point, the point is that the Minsk process really has come to a standstill. And what is now needed by Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin so that he does not go beyond the agreements that were before. Its tactics will now be very simple: we are not discussing reformatting, we require the implementation of the very agreements that were before. Because reformatting of the Minsk process is very dangerous for Russia, because it will put it in a difficult position if Kyiv offers to change the format, to change the status of partially Donbass, Lugansk, and so on.

Now the most important thing for Vladimir Vladimirovich is to prevent the Minsk agreements from reformatting in such a way that Russia is in an absolute minority. Plus, we must remember that the Zelensky team has a very persistent desire to remove Medvedchuk from the Minsk process - this is also a very important element that will be negatively perceived in Russia.

Mikhail Sokolov: So this is a dead end. Russia does not want to offer a new one.

Andrei Fedorov: This is really a dead end, because any reformatting of the Minsk process is a threat to the interests of Russia.

Mikhail Sokolov: It seems to me that this is a threat to the interests of Putin's regime. But you and I, of course, will not agree the terminologically. Indeed, such a ram, he rests, Putin, for those things that were achieved as a result, frankly, a military victory. But now the situation is different, the elections have passed, a new president has appeared, it was possible to start some new party, and this new party again begins with a power move.

Sergey Zhavoronkov: It is obvious that the occupation regime that exists in Donetsk and Lugansk has no support for the local population. This is a fundamental difference with Crimea. Who is appointed to lead the Donetsk Republic with us? The foreman of the pyramid mmm.

Mikhail Sokolov: The previous ones went to know where.

Sergey Zhavoronkov: First of all, when the invaders came, they threw all the former mayors who existed in the occupied territories. In Donetsk, there was a very popular mayor of Lukeintchenko, Donetsk Luzhkov, he sat there for 15 years, gained 70% in honest absolutely elections. They threw out all these real chosen ones and appointed some kind of fiction that is a fiction that hides the command of 58 of the Russian army, which is the leadership of these mysterious corps of the national police. Locals there are in some secondary positions, such as standing with the Berdanka. With all the technology, all hundreds of units of armored vehicles, which is located there, as Putin says, Shakhters and Tractorists, this is where the 58th army was led by everyone.

What, in my opinion, could be diplomatically to do to Ukraine? The Minsk agreements are written in such a way that it is not very clear what the sequence of actions. Putin rests: look, the law on a special status has not been adopted, the amnesty law has not been adopted. I would actually adopt these laws in the place of Ukrainians. Moreover, those who committed serious crimes are not subject to amnesties. If a person, in order to feed his family, signed up in the DPR, did not commit any crimes, why not amnesty him. A special status, assuming that these are elections according to Ukrainian laws and so on, can also be invented somehow.

It doesn’t matter in fact that it will be even inside these two laws, but it is important that from the point of view of international diplomacy, a checkmark can be placed. This will help increase the pressure on Putin with the fact that the real elections are needed, and not the elections of the emamps of some, selected somewhere in the trash. We need the withdrawal of troops. Since Putin denies that the troops exist there, this can be established using inspections. In the end, we must demand from Putin to return to those promises that he made about the possible placement of peacekeepers. Let it be Belarus, let it be Finland, not NATO members. In addition to this diplomatic pressure and still calls to the West to provide Ukraine to Ukraine.

Ukraine has a very powerful trump card. This year, a gas transit contract ends. Ukraine itself does not depend on gas supplies from Russia; for several years they have not been implemented. Ukraine increased its own gas production, reduced consumption, the desired gas shortage is purchased by reverse, which is much more profitable than for that terrible 2009 contract, which is terrible for Ukraine. Russia is not able to fulfill its contract obligations to European countries without maintaining at least part of Ukrainian transit, at least over the next two years. Technologically even longer, because if you build the Nord Stream-2 and the Turkish Stream, then there are no connectors in Europe that would completely allow gas from the Ukrainian direction. This is also some direction in which the Ukrainian authorities could act.

What was the problem of previous years? The Ukrainian authorities accepted high -profile statements, regarding which they could not be forced. “These are all terrorists, we will not give any special statuses to them.” You talked this, but you cannot military the Donbass from the invaders with a military manner.

Mikhail Sokolov: Maybe you need to create some attractive conditions, how did Saakashvili create them for Abkhazia and South Ossetia?

Sergey Zhavoronkov: Again, Putin said that they were deprived of some rights. Residents of Donbass citizens of Ukraine are absolutely full. They simply are forced to receive the same pensions in the controlled Ukrainian territory - it is completely logical so that these pensions do not fall into the hands of these emanesters and bandits so that they can be given to pensioners directly.

I could wish Ukrainians more political pragmatism and less political rhetoric. Although, of course, in six months there will be elections to the Rada, my wish, I am afraid, will hang in the air at least for these six months, but it is.

Mikhail Sokolov: Alexander, Vladimir Zelensky really found himself in a difficult situation now, the new president who has not yet begun to fulfill his duties, somehow this procedure is delayed, he is unhappy. What scenario of actions can be in response to this passport initiative, passport aggression, a threat, what do you want to call it?

Alexander Harebin: The rhetoric of Vladimir Zelensky today is not much different from the rhetoric of Petro Poroshenko. The Minsk format was still a diplomatic solution to the problem, in fact, it was a delay in the solution to the problem. The actions of Vladimir Putin, which are made quite prepared and systematic. As far as I remember, the bill on issuing passports was adopted a week ago by the State Duma, and signed just in the process of transferring power from the previous president to the current president.

I am a supporter by a diplomatic solution. In fact, Western advisers of Ukraine will play a dominant role in this process. According to passportization, more than a million citizens of Ukraine who are in the territories of the occupied Donetsk and Lugansk regions are subject to. The preparation of lists of those wishing to accept Russian citizenship has been conducted over the past two years. I assume that if Putin and his click have approached this systematically, as they have been doing it in recent years, then Ukraine may have the choice that in six months most of the citizens of Ukraine who have been in the occupied territory will be automatically citizens of the Russian Federation.

This is a colossal challenge to the international community, and to the Ukrainian authorities, to the Ukrainian state. Потому что противостояние по линии разграничения, фактически военный вооруженный конфликт, который ранее не признавался Путиным как конфликт между Россией и Украиной, а всегда облекался в форму гражданского противостояния, сейчас этой паспортизацией граждане Российской Федерации по версии Путина окажутся убитыми гражданами Украины, военнослужащими, защищающими свою территорию. Здесь важный вопрос, как это будет интерпретироваться ястребами в окружении Путина, либо самым Путиным. Как эта ситуация будет интерпретироваться международным сообществом.

Сейчас линия разграничения, линия конфликта может оказаться, когда с одной стороны будут граждане России, с другой стороны граждане Украины. Тогда факт признания войны, военного положения, либо военных действий уже нельзя будет скрыть, спрятать, облекать его в дипломатические формы. Здесь позиция Запада будет ключевой. Пока об этом говорить рано, сейчас Украина столкнулась с колоссальным вызовом, который сейчас нужно решать, это мина замедленного действия. Мало кто читал минский формат, мало кто понимает слово «амнистия».

Моя позиция была сообщена Владимиру Зеленскому о коллаборантах где четко прописывалось, кто подлежит амнистии, кто не подлежит амнистии. Потому что нормандский формат, ранее подписанные соглашения, у них два аспекта. Минский формат регламентирован Советом безопасности ООН. Все санкции против Российской Федерации на самом деле это не санкции против Путина.

Михаил Соколов: Андрей, мы уже эту тему затронули отчасти, жесткий вариант закона о языке, который сейчас принят в духе лозунгов Петра Порошенко, он в каком-то смысле ответ на путинский указ или все шло само-собой к этому варианту, действительно перед Зеленским еще один вызов, как-то надо, наверное, реагировать на некоторое недовольство русскоязычной части населения, которая является его избирателем?

Андрей Окара: Вы знаете, и то, и другое. Потому что сам этот закон о языке разрабатывался примерно с той же логикой, с которой разрабатывались изменения в конституцию о том, что Украина стремится к вступлению в ЕС и НАТО. Это то, что называется в компьютерных программах «защита от дурака». В данной ситуации защита от реванша и реваншистов.

Если вдруг так случится, думали разработчики этого закона, что Порошенко не победит, а победит какой-нибудь условный кандидат прокремлевский, скажем так, или же Верховной Раде тоже будет реванш бывших людей из Партии регионов, так или иначе, которые несут пророссийскую, прокремлевскую повестку, то в этой ситуации будет и этот закон, и два изменения в конституцию, которые изменить будет значительно сложнее, если бы это были просто какие-то законопроекты, которые еще предстоит принять.

Тут получилось, еще вчера шла речь о том, что в Верховной Раде не хватает сколько-то голосов до 226, может быть этот закон и не удастся принять. Но российская акция с паспортами определенным образом мотивировала очень многих украинских депутатов, результат 278 голосов — это достаточно серьезный и убедительный результат. Я не стал бы рассматривать его как специальный подкоп под будущее Зеленского, однако объективно получается, что ему придется вести разговор на очень непростую тему в ситуации, которая искусственно политизирована.

Михаил Соколов: Пишут, что есть основания обращаться в Конституционный суд, поскольку ряд положений закона противоречат Европейской хартии региональных языков и языков меньшинств. То есть какое-то продолжение здесь явно может быть. Зеленский, кстати, в своем заявлении как-то намекнул на это.

Андрей Окара: Зеленский, или его команда, или кто-то, кто от его имени пишет в интернете, написали достаточно грамотно, взвешенно и адекватно о том, что когда я стану президентом полномочным, тогда, наверное, надо эту тему обсудить, рассмотреть. Действительно такой закон должен приниматься в условиях очень широкого обсуждения. В Украине языковая тема является оружием гибридной войны, причем самых разных сил, не только прокремлевских. Поэтому, конечно, для будущего украинского языка намного эффективнее факторы того, что сейчас называется «гибкая сила», чем жесткая административная регламентация языковой сферы.

Михаил Соколов: Действительно, не получается ли так, что как только украинские политики национал-демократического плана хватаются за языковой аргумент, за языковое оружие, они в каком-то смысле сдают карты Владимиру Путину с точки зрения пропаганды, защиты прав русскоязычных, за что, мне кажется, у него не так много на самом деле прав есть, но, тем не менее, все это разыгрывается? Как в ситуации, я помню, с Крымом, сначала в Раде начали обсуждать новый языковой закон, тут же это было подхвачено как такая тема для вторжения в Крым.

Питер Залмаев: Вы буквально повторили все мои слова на эти ликования, которые мы видим сейчас в соцсетях по поводу голосования. Я сам уроженец Донбасса, к сожалению, выехал достаточно молодым, практически я не жил в Украине за исключением последних двух лет. Для меня мой личный процесс украинизации проходит медленно, но он проходит, я сам постепенно учу украинский язык. Тем не менее, для меня и похожих на меня это шкурный вопрос, как ни крути. Это все-таки язык моей матери. Мне очень сложно перейти на такой близкий язык украинский полностью во всех сферах и забыть о своем языке. Понятно, что это абсолютно противоестественно.

Мы здесь говорим про процесс мягкой украинизации и процесс твердой украинизации. Многие, кто приветствовали закон, отметили, что политика последних пяти лет мягкой украинизации достаточно ощутимо повлияла на повышение статуса украинского языка. Налицо подъем культуры, это выражается в книгопечатании, в кинематографе, в театре. Украинский язык вышел уже из категории языка-маргинала, на нем говорит все больше и больше молодежи. Я не считаю, что над украинским языком продолжает висеть экзистенциальная угроза. Я считаю, что те, которые раскручивают эту тему, они служат дальнейшему расколу украинского общества, они не служат благим идеалам укрепления национальной культуры. Украинский язык в неопасности, я сам сторонник мягкой украинизации. Я полностью согласен с вами, что этот закон задним числом оправдывает кремлевский повод аннексии Крыма и развязывание войны в Донбассе, как защита угнетаемого русскоязычного населения.

Михаил Соколов: К нам присоединился ненадолго Дмитрий Ольшанский, российский журналист такого патриотического плана. Дмитрий, вы приветствуете, наверное, путинские указы, вам хочется, чтобы он глубже зашел в войну, в противостояние, в аннексию, чтобы Донбасс стал российским, читая ваши тексты?

Дмитрий Ольшанский: Конечно, я сторонник того, чтобы русские из Украины вернулись в Россию вместе со своими территориями родными, чтобы вся эта советская национальная политика ленинская была закончена, Украина осталась в своих национальных границах без тех людей, над которыми она издевается столько лет и преследует их по языковому и по сути дела национальному признаку.

Михаил Соколов: Вы не удовлетворены, вам нужно, чтобы миллионы людей действительно сели на российский бюджет?

Дмитрий Ольшанский: Мне на фоне того, что происходит с бюджетом применительно к нашим бесконечным ворам и коррупционерам, миллионерам, разным нашим этническим так называемым регионам, всему остальному, мне абсолютно не жалко никаких налогов и никаких бюджетных денег для наших русских людей.

Потому что я был на Донбассе, про Крым не говорю — это понятно, жители Донбасса ничем не отличаются от жителей Ростовской области. Это одна земля, одна культура, одна страна. Это ложные границы советские, конечно, я очень рад тому, что они исчезают потихонечку, хотя и с таким трудом, с таким количеством драм. Но в истории так часто бывает, к сожалению.

Михаил Соколов: Вас слушают наши коллеги в Киеве, которые защищают свою страну. Вы им ничего не хотите сказать? Они вас считают врагом, наверное, справедливо.

Дмитрий Ольшанский: Я им хочу сказать, что я их поздравляю с тем, что их градус маниакальности не снижается. Сегодняшний принятый языковой закон чрезвычайно выгоден нам, в Москве очень выгоден. Потому что, конечно, он доказывает людям в Крыму и на Донбассе, я думаю, он доказывает многим людям в Харькове и в Одессе, в других местах, что они совершенно правильно ненавидят киевскую власть, что она сумасшедшая, потому что она не оставляет никаких языковых прав русским, и она не готова ни к какому компромиссу, двуязычному, федеративному.

Михаил Соколов: Понятно, что вам нужен русский язык в Украине, федерация, автономия, а потом кусками забирать в Россию Путина. Александр, вы не хотите ответить представителю «крымнашистского» движения?

Александр Харебин: Украинскому языку в Украине ничего не угрожало. В конституции четко прописано, что единственный государственный язык в Украине — это украинский. Ни президент Порошенко, ни будущий президент Зеленский никогда не отрицали эту норму. Никогда в риторике этих двух людей не было даже шанса на второй государственный язык. Поэтому данный закон, к сожалению я вынужден согласиться с «крымнашистом», что этот закон играет на руку Российской Федерации, президента Путина.

К сожалению, политическая недальновидность наших политиков, опять же политическая конъюнктура, когда партия Порошенко превращается фактически в праворадикальную партию, для Украины это трагедия, я это вынужден признать. Я считаю, что принятие закона после выборов в этой ситуации является не добром для Украины. Я не соглашусь с оппонентом, что на Донбассе такие же люди, как и в России, нет, на Донбассе украинские люди. К сожалению, Украина делает ошибку, не присваивая себе право на русский язык, на украинскую версию русского языка. В русском языке нет слова «Майдан», в русском языке нет других слов, которые стали частью украинской версии русского языка.

Михаил Соколов: Я вас уверяю, что слово «Майдан» точно теперь есть в русском языке с разным политическим содержанием, негативным для людей таких, как Дмитрий Ольшанский, и позитивным, как, например, Сергей Жаворонков. Сейчас мы дадим опрос, собственно, как в России люди относятся к раздаче гражданства.

Михаил Соколов: У нас есть опрос в Твиттере, он, конечно, не репрезентативный, но за то, чтобы ограничить миграцию выступают 52%, давать гражданство всем желающим из стран бывшего СССР 41%. А вот отдельно выделить непризнанные страны 2%, и ДНР, ЛНР 4%. Так что вы, я знаю, выступаете за ограничение миграции, вас это должно порадовать.

Сергей Жаворонков: Да, безусловно. Если мы говорим о Средней Азии или Закавказье, то, я помню, была дискуссия на «Эхо Москвы» несколько лет назад, там более 90% проголосовало за визовый режим.

Михаил Соколов: По Украине были другие цифры.

Сергей Жаворонков: Конечно, по Украине, по Молдавии, по Белоруссии будут другие цифры. Но народ, слава богу, постепенно понимает, что чем меньше мигрантов, тем выше зарплата.

Михаил Соколов: Я подозреваю, что люди действительно начинают задумываться даже о цене. Потому что пенсионная тема вокруг этого указа о выдаче паспортов стала практически главной в дискуссии в Фейсбуке.

Sergey Zhavoronkov: I agree with this. Людям и так плохо, пять лет подряд снижение реальных доходов населения, а тут нам предлагается еще по непонятному принципу повесить себе на шею каких-то новых сограждан сомнительного толка.

Михаил Соколов: Ради войны.

Сергей Жаворонков: Ради войны, да. Потому что я был в своей жизни один раз на территории Донецкой области, как-то у меня не сложилось впечатления, что это точно такие же люди, как мы.

Михаил Соколов: Прозвучали самые разные мнения, но главное, чтобы не было войны в том смысле, чтобы не было горячей фазы, к которой Россия иногда прибегает в отношениях с соседями.