Sex races or sex workers?

Do I need to legalize prostitution?

• Prostitution is an obvious fact of the life of Russian cities: in total there are up to 3 million sex workers in the country, and more than 60% of men used their services.
• Many experts against the legalization of prostitution, since the experience of other countries shows: violence does not become less.
• In Russia, prostitution is criminalized, so sex workers are not socially protected, they cannot even turn to the police for help.
• Prostitution was, is and will be. The question is to minimize the presence of violence, operation and crime in this business.

Sergey Medvedev: Today we have a real archaeological topic. I want to talk about what everyone knows, but few people talk about - about the deep layers of our subconscious and our social everyday life: about prostitution. Up to 64% of men, one way or another, used the services of prostitutes.

Correspondent: Over three million prostitutes work in Russia. And, despite the fact that this business is illegal, the sex services market are perfectly regulated. A sharp decrease in income and the lack of worthy wages force girls to go to the panel.

Video version of the program

Sex services are prohibited by the Code of the Russian Federation on administrative offenses and the Criminal Code. For prostitution, a fine of one and a half to two thousand rubles faces, and for involving prostitution and for organizing - imprisonment.

The ban on prostitution in Russia does not prevent it from existing and prosper, and the range of people who go to this area is extremely wide - from expensive escort girls in large cities to completely defenseless roadside prostitutes serving the client in the car.

The ban on prostitution in Russia does not prevent it from existing and prosper, and the range of people going to this sphere is extremely wide

How necessary is the legalization of prostitution? Or should the body trade be prohibited by all means, because such a business violates human rights?

Sergey Medvedev: We guest Evgeny Kulgavchuk , a sexologist, a psychotherapist, and Igor Pchelin , head of the Shags Foundation.

How real is this assessment that in Russia three million women are engaged in prostitution?

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: There can be no exact numbers, only preliminary, but perhaps yes. This is a fairly common phenomenon. In general, nothing new ... No wonder prostitution is called the ancient profession. It was noted even in the female chimpanzees when they surrendered to the banana. Since these times, everything went and did not stop.

Sergey Medvedev: Is this an inevitable social phenomenon that exists under all regimes?

Igor bee: Yes, it existed, exists and will exist. If we look at the next 50 years, it will probably be transformed, but the fact itself will remain.

Sergey Medvedev: How can it transform?

Igor bee: there will be cybersexual services. But along with them, the provision of sexual services will increase and will cost more: since it is less accessible, then, accordingly, it will again lead to some criminal things.

Sergey Medvedev: That is, the human body will grow in price?

Igor bee: Of course.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: I agree on cyber development. Now there is a huge amount of sex robots, they evolve. A lot of new exhibitors from China. A frightening similarity with a person has already appeared. Indeed, exhibits began to appear already using virtual reality.

Sergey Medvedev: Is this prostitution already?

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: This can be called sex services.

Sergey Medvedev: There is no operation.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Yes, there is no spirit, there is no personality, there is no person.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the essence of prostitution?

Igor bee: This is when a woman is sometimes elevated to the rank of object. Many defenders of women's rights around the world precisely indicate this. A woman is served as a product - it doesn’t matter, we are talking about pornography or prostitution.

In Moscow, a brothel with artificial young ladies also opened. I do not think that there is a turn there, this is more of a certain exotic, but in the future, perhaps such trends will be, although not so massive. People still like love.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the imperative of prostitution? A man lacks a variety? Is this in the most masculine nature?

Igor Pchelin: First of all, this is the availability of sexual satisfaction, what can be obtained without a candy-bouquet period, a kind of backup from falling in love, relationships and other things, that is, purely lust, satisfaction of sexual needs-did, left, forgot.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Physiological need.

Igor bee: There is not only women there.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the percentage of male prostitutes?

Igor bee

Igor Pchelin: In general, these are four groups (our fund works with three of them). These are women who provide sexual services to men, these are men who provide sexual services to men (here we must clearly distinguish between homosexuality and male prostitution for men), these are transgender people, and these are men who provide sexual services to women. They practically did not talk about male prostitution until the last five years. For the past four years we have been doing this. We have about 800 customers as social assistance and prevention of diseases as social assistance and prevention of diseases. This is a very small part. We have about 180 transgender people in a state of transition that earn in this way. We have not yet touched the fourth group and do not even know.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: General trends around the world are still classic: after all, there are more women who provide services to men. There is interesting information - up to the point that animals can provide services by order, so the categories can be endlessly increased.

Sergey Medvedev: On the one hand, we see a very strong stigmatization of prostitution from a conservative, traditional, religious consciousness. But, on the other hand, in completely all eras, at different governments there was also temple prostitution. Some double attitude of society, power to this phenomenon ...

Igor bee: Everything related to intimacy is always taboo. This is due to specific diseases. Until recently, this was associated, for example, with a menstrual cycle and pregnancy. Now society is socialized, and these things are the forefront as something ordinary, not taboo, not negative. But, with regard to sex, it has been taboo.

Sergey Medvedev: We are in the transition. On the one hand, an influx of supporters of morality is visible. In Israel, even a trip to prostitutes was foreseen.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Yes, this is the Swedish model. There they are just fighting the slave trade, and successfully quite successfully.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the problem? If a woman voluntarily offers her services ...

Igor bee: these are the so -called individuals, and then they often need protection. But organized ... Let's study the experience of foreign countries. When it takes an organized form ... No wonder the slave trade is preoccupied in these states. A huge number of women are a brood product. In this regard, we can talk about merciless operation. A lot of studies were conducted: in this lesson, a lot is associated with violence, with physical beatings.

Sergey Medvedev: Is it possible to clear prostitution of operation and violence? In the end, this is the production of a certain public good, which has a request in society. We must fight violence, and not with prostitution.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: There is no even need to invent anything here. Five years later, in Germany there was a report on the intermediate results of the legalization of prostitution. It was recognized that the hopes were not justified, that is, as much violence, as much was left, it was even said that to some extent it became more due to legalization.

Igor Pchelin: There is no optimal solution. We can only talk about improving a certain situation, for example, in terms of the criminal component of prostitution, reproductive health or sexually transmitted infections. But we cannot fully improve the situation with prostitution.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the essence of the Swedish model?

Igor Pchelin: The Swedish model is a reaction to the statement of the European Parliament that we must reduce the demand for sexual services. And in the four countries they introduced punishment, that is, fines for customers, but this did not solve the problem, although in appearance the sex work has become less.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: The slave trade decreased significantly.

Igor Pchelin: Women are leaving for the coming countries to do this. It went into some completely crime-bars, wastelands and so on. Anyway, the girls who are engaged in sex work are abused, if not more. No model worked.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: But it was in Sweden that the slave trade decreased significantly. Indeed, if consumers come to neighboring countries for this, it means that it becomes less in Sweden itself.

The main problem here is associated with violence and the operation of a woman

Sergey Medvedev: But the main problem is with violence and with the operation of a woman. Nowhere is it about the fact that this undermines the moral principles of society, destroys the family. Is there any influence?

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: In the Swedish model, I like the fact that there they help prostitutes get education, profession, give powerful legal support, help with children's benefits. And this is an excellent experience that can and should be adopted.

As for the impact on the family: of course, to a greater extent, we can talk about the fact that we must teach people to build good, harmonious, interesting relationships. People do not know how to do this, and very often marital relations fade, because the mode of labor and rest is not respected, people get tired, sexual attraction falls. These people, too,, in fact, must be taught - to build relationships.

Sergey Medvedev: Is it not easier for his wife to cope with the situation if a man went to a prostitute? After all, a mistress is already a whole project, this is a great betrayal, and prostitutes are a minute weakness.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Sometimes - yes. Women say that they are ready to turn a blind eye to such fleeting campaigns, the main thing is that he does not drive to the cinema. Of course, some women understand that a mistress is an encroachment on the head of the family. But every woman is the owner in her own way. Still, for most women, these husband’s betrayal are unpleasant.

Igor Pchelin: If we talk about archeology, then in many cultures there was a practice of initiating sexual debut, so that people were more sexually uptake. They were prepared for the family, but they were given to sex workers to teach them. It can not be said that this can be broadcast today, but we see the opposite situation: perhaps it is associated with the lack of sexual education. In fact, now young people, including graduates, arrange famous boyfriends when they call girls: this is an attempt to get some sexual experience from professionals ... Previously, this was not encouraged and did not talk about it openly, but it somehow did not taboo. Now it is very tabulated.

Sergey Medvedev: And yet this is strange, but the production of a social benefit is the satisfaction of a real request, if you subtract an element of violence, coercion and exploitation of a woman from prostitution.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Not at the expense of the happiness of another. Many people, for example, have a need for a splash of aggression. If there was no article for the murder in the Criminal Code, I assure you, many shot and cut people.

Sergey Medvedev: There are some desires that do not fit into the framework of the Criminal Code and generally accepted morality. In this case, we are dealing with a fairly recognized desire that can be satisfied in the framework of the market situation (including allowing another person to make money). I do not see any moral flaw here, if there is no violence and operation. Why not? There is much more social evil - the production of weapons or alcohol.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: This is the principle of voluntariness, the principle of the reservation of the services provided - what is permissible and what is not.

Igor Pchelin: To some extent, voluntary relations are any sexual relationship. In general, when men invite women to a restaurant, they pay for an expensive dinner, give gifts-these are also forms of market exchange.

Sergey Medvedev: The exchange of resource for the resource, money for the body.

Igor bee: Why are we moving to? Is prostitution a good or poor phenomenon?

Sergey Medvedev: Let's see from the point of view of sex workers. As I understand it, in recent years this market has not been legalized, but very strongly settled, instructed, there are less and less random people there. These are fairly older women (older than 30 years).

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Yes. We have more than 90% - these are girls who go there voluntarily, consciously, and we cannot even say that these are girls with low social status.

Sergey Medvedev: As Putin said - with low social responsibility. Why? This is just a high social responsibility.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: There is the answer of the girls: "We are girls of low social responsibility for men with high social stress." So, in the pool of customers of our project, a girl with two higher education, with government agencies, including the Ministry of Internal Affairs and so on. The market more or less settled in large cities. In small ones, he, unfortunately, with an epidemic of drug addiction is very diluted by girls who are looking for money for a dose and, accordingly, provide sexual services for a dose.

There is a gradation of girls, places of work, price tag and so on. Independents are the most free, including in the choice. Many activists from public organizations, the movements of sex workers say that this is the optimal structure when there is no pimp, "mother" and so on. Accordingly, they can refuse the client.

Sergey Medvedev: But there are more expenses and risks. The girl spends money on advertising, linen, cosmetics.

Igor bee: You mentioned an important point - the possibility of refusal. When the girl works in the structure - here is the exploitation, maybe violence. And if, for example, to talk about the institute of containers, this is also a kind of prostitution, just there in retail, but here is small wholesale. A man-support girl may not love a man, and an aging man can amuse herself so much. They both understand that this is a surrogate of relations, but there is a lot of this in large cities, megacities.

For Russia, we must first of all talk about decriminalization of prostitution. "Saturdays for girls" still exist.

Sergey Medvedev: And in favor of whom do they work?

Igor bee: in favor of different "roofs" - both tiled and gangster, including the Ministry of Internal Affairs and so on.

Sergey Medvedev: How much is this business controlled by power structures?

Igor bee: it's hard to say. We have two mobile points, and every day we go to the tracks. Twice a year, we see the monthly labels: the points are removed. Then we find them in another place. Just three years ago, on the Moscow Ring Road in the area of the Losyn Island - from Yaroslavka to the Shchelkovo highway - there were 12 points that the police roofed. Then it was decided that the Moscow Ring Road is a landmark of Moscow, and it needs to be cleaned.

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Once Tverskaya was a landmark.

Sergey Medvedev: Until now, women are standing on Kutuzovsky Prospekt.

Igor Pchelin: I would like to add by decriminalization: the experience of other countries (for example, Germany) suggests that this does not solve, but exacerbates the problem.

Sergey Medvedev: Are you against legalization?

Igor bee: Yes. It is very important to study on strangers, and not on your mistakes. Prostitution is the oldest profession, it is and will be, and there is nothing to be done about it. But social diseases must be treated, not to develop.

Sergey Medvedev: Here the question is, is it to call it a "social disease"? In Germany, soon after legalizing, the pensioner, through the court, ordered the insurance company to pay him a visit to the prostitute because he was widowed, and this is necessary for his physiological and mental health. And the insurance company paid for his weekly visit to a prostitute and a taxi trip. What to call it social evil, if the state actually admits that this is one of the methods of therapy?

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: Let's think about the second side. The aging gentleman, whom the young girl, for example, sees the first time. What are her interests?

Igor Pchelin: Financial. Of course, this is social good, social services. The experience of the Netherlands showed that the state pays for sex workers for the disabled, pays to girls.

Many people come to prostitution from non -harmonious families when the family had violence, emotional coldness

Evgeny Kulgavchuk: There are organizations that advocated legalization, and now they are more and more often criticized and turn off these streets of red lamps.

Igor bee: it's just because of the high cost. If we are talking about prostitution as a social phenomenon, we must share violence, slavery and voluntary provision of sexual services. Now the sex work is foreseen. Our articles of the Criminal Code do not work, how they should work. They criminalize the sex work itself, and the girl, if she is mutilated, cannot seek social help anywhere. А если она проработала пять-десять лет на секс-работе и хочет ее сменить, то статья 6.11 остается у нее на всю жизнь.

Евгений Кульгавчук: При анонимных опросах проститутки очень часто говорят: "Я планирую завязать". Большинство не рассматривает это как любимую профессию на всю жизнь. Множество психотерапевтов работают с девушками в Голландии, в Германии, и все говорят о том, что даром для психики это не проходит. Это искалеченные женщины.

Сергей Медведев: Вот вы говорите о неизбежном зле, которое несет проституция, но можем ли мы себе представить мир без нее?

Евгений Кульгавчук: И алкоголь будет, и проституция будет, и воровство будет. Очень часто это проистекает из детских травм. Многие приходят в проституцию из-за негармоничных семей, когда недополучена любовь отца, в семье было насилие, эмоциональная холодность. Этих женщин нужно не осуждать, а пожалеть. Как правило, у большинства своя травматическая история, о которой они не хотят говорить, если не созрели.

Игорь Пчелин: Но все-таки убийство есть убийство, а педофил есть педофил, а не "лицо с педофильной ориентацией". Все-таки проституция всегда называлась проституцией. Это не совсем работа. "Труженик" – тут это даже потешно звучит, "герой сексуального труда".

Сергей Медведев: Я думаю, представители профсоюзов проституток на Западе с вами не согласятся. Вы за то, чтобы продолжать называть их проститутками, падшими женщинами, социальным дном? Я думаю, они, в конце концов, заслуживают уважения.

Евгений Кульгавчук: К сожалению.

Сергей Медведев: Я согласен. Но многие офисные сотрудники тоже заслуживают сожаления. А здесь должны быть какие-то коллективные формы защиты? Ведь есть даже Международный день проституток – 2 июня.

Игорь Пчелин: Есть 17 декабря – Всемирный день против насилия над секс-работниками. Если женщина, занимающаяся секс-работой, сможет защитить себя в правовом поле, появятся и профсоюзы. У нас есть объединение секс-работников России, в том числе "Серебряная роза" в Санкт-Петербурге.

Евгений Кульгавчук: Это граждане нашей страны. Они все уже по умолчанию имеют защиту от насилия.

Сергей Медведев: Но пока проституция криминализована, секс-работница не может рассчитывать на помощь полиции.

Евгений Кульгавчук: Да, "ты сама виновата". Но юридически она имеет право написать заявление.

Игорь Пчелин: Это не работает.

Сергей Медведев: Легализация или нет? Ваши аргументы за и против.

Евгений Кульгавчук: Я против легализации, потому что это часто связно с насилием, с разрушающимися семьями, несчастными людьми, наркотиками и так далее Минусов гораздо больше. Если есть какие-то болезни, это не говорит о том, что их надо развивать. Я считаю это своего рода социальной болезнью. Но женщин надо поддерживать. Своих граждан надо защищать.

Игорь Пчелин: На сегодняшний момент я против легализации, потому что это вызовет широкий общественный резонанс и ухудшит ситуацию. Но я за декриминализацию, чтобы женщина могла пользоваться социальными благами, которые гарантирует государство, и правовой защитой. А по какой модели нам идти дальше, покажет время.

Сергей Медведев: У общества страусиная позиция по этому поводу. Мы все об этом знаем, но никто не хочет об этом говорить и заниматься этим. Фактически бандиты и силовики это крышуют. На мой взгляд, выход в том, чтобы открыто признать эту проблему, декриминализовать ее. Нужно разделять проституцию как некую общественную услугу и то насилие, тот криминал, которые с этим связаны.