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Ukraine and Russia have prepared for the exchange of prisoners. Who are these people? Who else remains in prisons of both countries? What was the exchange mechanism? Why did he break a week ago? Is there a hundred percent guarantee that it will happen on September 7, 2019? On air, journalist Roman Tsimbalyuk, analyst Konstantin Skorkin , politician Borislav Bereza . The host of the program "Facial to the event" Elena Rykovtseva.

Full video version of the program

Elena Rykovtseva: We will meet on the eve of the day when, it would seem, finally, as it seems to us all and, as it seems, they promise us, we must let out Ukrainian sailors, Ukrainian citizens, should exchange them for Russian citizens. Although it is a little more difficult to understand who these Russian citizens are. With us, Roman Tsimbalyuk, Ukrainian journalist, UNIAN, Konstantin Skorkin, analyst of the Carnegie Center. Borislav Bereza, Ukrainian politician in touch with us. Let's see our plot before starting our conversation with you, in which we described what happened during this week.

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Will there be an exchange?

Elena Rykovtseva: A lot of questions, but I will try to ask them sequentially. Kirill Vyshinsky all this time was not going to exchange in any way, he wanted to stay in Ukraine, continue to sue, even sit, but to prove his innocence. He did not want to be included in these lists, he is a citizen of Ukraine, although he received Russian citizenship a few years ago. At the same time, suddenly on the day of his release appeared on social networks, on the page of the spokesman for the then general prosecutor his statement that he agrees to the exchange. Ukrainian media reported that they were being changed. I just called his lawyer, he says that this is a fake, this is a fake, he did not sign anything, he is not going to join in the exchange lists. The novel, your forecast, can be sold out and make it so that someone recognizable is from the Russian side? The Russian side represents it as a prisoner of conscience, I would probably like to get it back.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: With Kirill Vyshinsky, the situation consists of two components. De facto is a position and de jure. He is already exchanged de facto, he was released. Repeatedly Russian representatives stated that the liberation of Vyshinsky is the first step in order to unlock the issue of exchange. Therefore, in fact, Ukraine has gone to this requirement. We reacted differently to this fact, but the political decision was made, it walks somewhere. How further his fate will turn out - this is a big question. He wants to prove his innocence, but I personally, as a citizen of Ukraine, is also a citizen of Ukraine, I would ask only one question: what does he want? He wants him to be fully justified so that he would go as a Russian citizen at the same time by Khreshchatyk with the medal of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation for the return of Crimea or will he somehow store it in some other place, maybe in his central office in Moscow?

Elena Rykovtseva: That is, the question for him, will he repent?

Roman Tsimbalyuk: In fact, this question is very capacious. Because if a person considers himself innocent, he received such a high award from the whole Ministry of Defense, then this is the basis to walk with it. If I had a medal from Ukraine, I would go to you with a medal for every broadcast. I am very interested in how he will behave.

Elena Rykovtseva: I can give a forecast that if he is released on Khreshchatyk, he will not wear this medal.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: If he is an absolutely free person, why not.

Elena Rykovtseva: He was not tried for the fact of receiving a medal.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: Of course, the article there is different. For citizens of Ukraine in such cases, state treason is provided. I do not give an assessment of the actions of the Ukrainian SBU and Ukrainian courts. Just as a citizen, this question worries me. If you are a journalist, then why do you get military awards from the aggressor country? This question must be answered, and everything will be fine.

Elena Rykovtseva: Probably not everything will be fine. What surprises me in the story with Vyshinsky, no one opens the Wikipedia to see what he is judged for. There, God knows what is sophisticated, some money, financing of terrorist organizations ...

Roman Tsimbalyuk: I don’t even touch the legal components, because this is a specialized issue. I know many people who work in RIA Novosti in Kyiv, they also put forward these suspicions of financing terrorism, although they actually transferred only a salary. We have a security service, let them explain this issue themselves.

Elena Rykovtseva: There is a judicial process on which he expressed a desire to continue to walk. My forecast: it will not be included in these lists, because he does not want.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: The question is what instructions he will receive. If he has the task of shouting about Ukrainian fascism and Zelensky’s regime, you will need to find terry fascism in the new team of Zelensky, if he receives such instructions, then, of course, he needs to work, monitor the Ukrainian information space and find this fascism fresh, green.

Elena Rykovtseva: Why did we cling to Vyshinsky, because there is such a small miserable Russian list, we understand 35 names, of which one and a half people are clear to us. You have a forecast-he will receive a task from his homeland, the party to join in this exchange in order to show someone?

Konstantin Skorkin: I think, most likely, he will be exchanged. The question with the list is very interesting, because there really are few surnames. This is not surprising, because for Russia this exchange is not a factor in domestic policy. In Ukraine, it is of great importance, freeing Ukrainian prisoners, political prisoners - this is an important factor in the internal controversy, it is widely discussed in the media. The Russian media mainly spoke of Vyshinsky. It is clear that he is an employee of the government media, of course, that he has such attention. Yes, he will participate in exchange. It is very interesting who is from the Russian side.

Elena Rykovtseva: I think, exactly because he is an employee of the media, so they concentrated on him. Everyone else does not fit the formula "We are not there." Therefore, they do not advertise this whole story.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: Of course, this is too. I wonder what the ratio of Russian and Ukrainian citizens will be. The bulk is still Ukrainian citizens on this list who participated on the side of the DPR.

Elena Rykovtseva: Is this more, according to your forecast, there will be Ukrainian citizens?

Konstantin Skorkin: Basically yes. The surnames that are by hearing are all mostly Ukrainian citizens. There are Russians, but mainly associated with the DPR. There will be an exchange of some Ukrainian citizens for other Ukrainian citizens.

Elena Rykovtseva: The carpets are hardly deployed in Russia, they will show on their citizens the broadcast of how they go out because people will not understand who it is.

Konstantin Skorkin: These people are not in the media sex, they do not appear in any way, yes, no one knows them.

Elena Rykovtseva: The Ukrainian politician Borislav Bereza is in touch with us. We are trying to understand who these people who the Russian side achieved so much, or, on the contrary, it was not so achieved, maybe this exchange was more necessary for the Ukrainian side. 35 names, we know which of them are sailors, who are journalists, who are military. Maybe the exchange was really inhibited for the reason that the Russian side is not very interested in these characters, also Ukrainian citizenship. Who do you think these are people?

Borislav Bereza: To begin with, there is still not Ukrainian citizenship. The military Armed Forces of the Russian Federation of Ageev has Russian citizenship, he was detained in Ukraine with weapons in his hands and disarmed. In the process of detention, he was wounded, after which he began to testify. To date, among the exchange fund there are Russian citizens who carried out either sabotage work in Ukraine or military operations. They are terrorists, they are killers, they are mercenaries, they accidentally lost the paratroopers, there are different, but basically these are Russian citizens. Vyshinsky promoted Media Person. It is convenient to promote it, show that - look, freedom of speech. But freedom of speech is not awarded the medal for the squeeze of the Crimea. Freedom of speech does not receive Russian citizenship, does not work for Russia. Freedom of speech is still a somewhat democratic principle. Vyshinsky, by the way, is perceived by the Ukrainian side as a citizen of Russia. According to the Law of Ukraine, if a citizen of Ukraine voluntarily acquired other people's citizenship, then he automatically loses Ukrainian citizenship. In addition, if he is a citizen of Ukraine, then he will really sue for the betrayal of the interests of the state, because it is actually a Stateismman. For betrayal, for help in the annexation of Crimea, he was awarded a medal. Therefore, there are either traitors or Russians, there are no others there.

Elena Rykovtseva: We understand who you call traitors. But, nevertheless, several citizens of Ukraine fall under this category, participants in some stocks-there are anti-Maidan, someone else. There are some of the people whom you mean so with Ukrainian passports, but basically these are real citizens of Russia?

Borislav Bereza: Basically, these are real citizens of Russia. Vyshinsky’s behavior is nothing more than a modeled position with his curators. When necessary, he performs when necessary, he is silent. He actually acts as the scriptwriters from Old Square conceived him. I suspect that as soon as they give him a team to leave, he will leave instant. He is pulling as much as he was told.

Elena Rykovtseva: This is your version. My version is that he himself rests. Let's see how it will end.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: The bulk of the people who fell under this exchange, they are citizens of the Russian Federation. Nobody knows anything about them. Six months ago, most of them, at least 11 citizens of the Russian Federation who were captured during the fighting, asked the President of Russia to exchange them. Ukraine tried to somehow remind our neighbors that we have your war criminals, if you want to take people, then there is such an option. They pretended, as usual, "they are not there." Such an interesting thing, all Russian citizens, as soon as they fall with an automatic machine in their hands, they definitely have some kind of certificate of three letters-it is like an indulgence that the Russian state has nothing to do with it. As soon as they fall for interrogation, they tell their combat path, how they quit. Then they are told that we crossed you out of the lists. The Russian state focuses on Vyshinsky exclusively, because he is really a journalist. Thus, everyone else is cleaned in the shadow. If you understand in detail for each person, according to my data, there are people who could not prove that they are Russian military, but they are exactly, according to the investigation, they are like that. Here they have been sitting for five years. There are Russian idiots, sorry, I use this formulation, because a normal civilian person, having seen enough of Russian television, will not abandon his family and will not go to fight in another country. If he took such a step, then he doesn’t have everything in order with his head. There is such a category of people. It is clear that in order not to focus on these personalities, now the main question is where they will be brought. My forecast is as follows, that there will be a minimum of information. On Russian television, they will focus on, as usual, in Ukraine, Vyshinsky, if it is brought. Further, most likely, several people are promoted, there may be a cable, if they are given it, and that’s all. Let me remind you how it was with the exchange of Savchenko for two Russian special forces from the city of Togliatti: they also got lost, they also had certificates of three letters, but at the interrogations they immediately said that it was Russian special forces. They were brought to Vnukovo-2 on the An-148 aircraft, only two cameras of federal channels were launched. A video was aired without sound. Where these guys are now, if they see me, I am passing on to them hello, I hope they are doing well, they will not atone for their guilt before the Russian state and not in Syria. Someone heard something about them? No one heard anything. And now there will be exactly the same story. Ukraine meets its heroes, these people are victims of Russian aggression against Ukraine, and all, from Sentsov, ending with the military sailors who were captured.

Elena Rykovtseva: It will be a difficult time from the point of view of PR for Russian propaganda. Against the backdrop of this joy, which in Ukraine will also need to portray something, but with whom? It is completely incomprehensible how to arrange it. A week ago, when the exchange broke, when they were already waiting, when it seemed about, a rumor passed that they would fly. The reason was called Yuri Butusov that almost at the last moment the Russian side demanded that Vladimir Tsemakh be included in this list. Vladimir Tsemakh is a militant who, presumably, was related to a “Boeing” shot, who may be a valuable witness. The Russian side seemed to request him, according to the information that we received. Borislav, is it known that it will be known that it will be issued to Russia? Has the Ukrainian side managed to receive intelligible testimonies that can be sent to colleagues to the International Commission for the investigation of this tragedy?

Borislav Bereza: Mr. Tsemakh is a direct participant in the Boeing’s confusion - this is already a proven fact. Moreover, this is why Russia insists on exchange. Even an unexpected event occurred: it was Sentsov who was proposed to be given in exchange for Tsemakh, not only Sentsov, but also Karpyuk and several more people. That is, in fact, Russia, realizing how dangerous the testimony of Tsemakh is for it, today requires the receipt of this witness. Although he is not only a witness, he is considered by the Dutch prosecutor as a participant in a crime - this is completely different. That is why, so that he does not give testimony, precisely because it has a danger to Russia, they require its receipt. Therefore, today we clearly understand that the entire exchange is around the cemaha. Vyshinsky, Ageev, the rest of the Shval, which was detained with weapons in his hands, with Russian passports, the Kremlin is not interested. Here I am ready to agree one hundred percent with Mr. Tsimbalyuk, they will disappear. Someone will drown in his bathroom, someone will drive a car, someone will disappear in Syria. Russia is not needed, they shame, because it is a confession that Russia is fighting in Ukraine. Therefore, to date, the main goal is, of course, the cements. And for Ukraine, the main goal at all costs to return their citizens who languish in captivity.

Elena Rykovtseva: Borislav says such things that can be alert. Indeed, what to do with it? They will receive it, everyone knows that this is a valuable witness, give him to Holland. But the Russian side will hardly want. So she will receive him, what will happen to him next?

Konstantin Skorkin: Russia is great, they will find a place.

Elena Rykovtseva: They will hide, you want to say?

Konstantin Skorkin: Of course, the international tribunal will demand. Or maybe it will not, I don’t know.

Elena Rykovtseva: It seems to me that the international tribunal will demand when such a witness is already lit, and even with such a video.

Roman Tsimbalyuk: They will demand in any case. The question is that this exchange between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, if the Russian state requires a person who allegedly does not belong to the Russian Federation, then, it seems to me, this is also evidence that it is Russia who wants to hide traces of this terrible crime. They can show after some kind of processing so that he said, he probably gave some testimony on the video, for some time he spent in the SBU, he was unlikely to smoke bamboo all this time there, he probably worked with him, carried out interrogations, and so on to give counterargument, that his Ukrainian punishers were forced to do something bad, he was forced to admit. After that, of course, he will disappear, no one will ever hear about him again. The Russian authorities will say: we do not know, he went to the territory of the East of Ukraine occupied by us, you know, we are not there, but we are monitoring everything there, he went there, look for it. The fate of this person is unlikely to be known to the wide public masses. This is a convenient form, having designed the occupation of Crimea in one way, the occupation of the East of Ukraine is different, in all cases they say that we are not there, contact the people whom we appointed there after Zakharchenko or appoint someone new. Everything understands everything, but Moscow’s behavior will be exactly the same as for any other crime against Ukraine in the east of Ukraine.

Elena Rykovtseva: We will now see a survey of our passers -by whom we asked if they believe in the prospects of this exchange.

Continuation of the broadcast watch the video and listen in sound

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