Smolensk: National Unity Day

Russian-Polish war of 1611 and other city historical myths

Most city, City City, Border City. Smolensk in the history of Russia and Eastern Europe.

Do residents of Smolensk share the new patriotic myth of the "Russian Victory over the Poles"? Smolensk wall and Smolensk Cathedral: city scenery, part of the story, the current component of the life of a citizen?

Probe and pro -Moscow elites in the history of the city: Is this choice relevant today? Do the townspeople remember their Lithuanian and Polish part of history? What do Polish, Belarusian and Russian historians of the Smolensk region argue about conferences?

The Norman theory of the emergence of Smolensk and its opponents. Who were the inhabitants of Smolensk by origin and how did the national composition of the region change?

How to live a modern person in a city, where "too many history"? Modern history: Katyn and a crashed presidential aircraft in the visibility zone of citizens.

We are in Smolensk, in the club and creative space "Staff". Discuss Anatoly Sterlagov , economist, teacher, public figure; journalist and guide Olga Efimkina ; guide, historical reconstructor Mikhail Goydin ; local historian Vladimir Markov ; The historian, historiographer of the Smolensk region Gennady Lastovsky .

Elena Fanailova is running

Video version of the program

Olga Efimkina: If a person first arrived in Smolensk, then the cathedral and wall cannot be circumvented. Because this is the quintessence of our history, these are so rich symbols that everyone needs to get to know them in order to feel and understand them. Even to those who are not close to religion, who, perhaps, in the wake of the latest events, is configured against Orthodoxy, are allergic from all this, he still needs to go to our cathedral, because you will not see such a cathedral in another place, this is a unique monument. At the junction of cultures, at the junction of religions, it has its own, it is not entirely clear where the symbolism has come from, very strange and unusual, he has a unique decoration inside, a unique appearance outside.

Anatoly Sterlagov: Smolensk at a time when Vladislav had already ascended the Moscow throne, when the Polish troops were in Moscow, he resisted for 20 months, did not give up, defending the independence of not only his own, like the cities, but also the Russian land. And the fact that Sigismund with the army stood near Smolensk allowed to weaken the positions of the Poles in Moscow itself. In the end, the Polish troops expelled from there. In Moscow and near Moscow, in the nearest cities, a people's militia gathered, everyone remembers about Minin and Pozharsky , and on November 4, famous events took place, which the country notes today. But I would like the country not to forget about those who defended Smolensk at this time.

Vladimir Markov: Smolensk is an abandoned place that no one is interested in. It is amazing to me why, in connection with which a city with such a story, with such an number of architectural monuments, despite all the troubles, is not interested in almost none of the serious people in today's Russia.

Anatoly Sterlagov

Anatoly Sterlagov: Under Boris Godunov, a church was built here. Smolensk-outpost of the Moscow state, key city. The border city does not receive practically any development from the state. And in those and in later times, everyone perfectly understood that if aggression begins, it was primarily that this territory was conquered, therefore it was completely useless to invest in the border cities. It was a strategy of the Soviet state. In 1918, Smolensk was a border city, Minsk was under the Germans. Then part of Belarus went to Soviet Russia, and still this border was somewhere nearby, through a narrow strip of Belarus. The defense line was built here, because everyone understood that the war with Germany was inevitable, and since 1935 defensive structures began to be built here. Everyone perfectly understood that the defense of the Soviet state would take place in this territory. For the same reason, industrial enterprises were not built, here before World War II the industry was mainly processing, processed agricultural products - raw plants, dairy plants, flax processing enterprises and so on, there was not a single large enterprise, except for the aviation plant that appeared here back in 1919 for the repair of aviation equipment.

Mikhail Goydin: In Smolensk, his environs are everywhere history, everything can be told about everything, but it turns out that, except for amateur tourists, no one is interested. Although the whole history of Russia has passed through us.

Elena Fanailova: And not only, part of the history of Europe passed through you. The city entered the Principality of Lithuania, was part of the Polish world when it was conquered. Finally, the city was key to resolve the troubles of the Troubles. Is it now seems to be the most important point?

Mikhail Goydin: The history of Russia was decided three times near Smolensk. Smolensk is a hero city, the Germans stopped here for two weeks in July-August 1941, which allowed Moscow to strengthen the near and distant approaches to the city. On August 4-5, 1812- the Smolensk battle , near Smolensk, the first and second Western Russian armies were associated, which, retreating from the border, had to unite so that Napoleon could not break them alone. In this, in general, there is the meaning of the Smolensk battle-two Russian armies were saved here. And of course, the question of the siege of Smolensk 1609-11.

This city has always been a bunch that helps the interpenetration of cultures

Gennady Lastovsky: From the point of view of today, it is necessary to remember events, for example, related to the vague time and defense of the city of 1609-11. We say-a key city, but any door has two keyhole wells-from one and on the other. And Smolensk played this role - the key was inserted into it from the west and from the east. And this city has always been a bunch that helps the interpenetration of cultures. Whether we want it or not, but we are still carriers of European values, values of European culture.

Elena Fanailova: Is there any interest in the Polish-Lithuanian period of the existence of Smolensk? There is a metaphor that this is a city-bridge that existed between the two worlds and even between the two civilizations, it was also part of the Principality of Lithuania for a short time, it also had a Polish period. Are the material traces of this preserved, and do people remember this?

Vladimir Markov: Almost until the middle of the 18th century, Polish was spoken in Smolensk in Smolensk.

Mikhail Goydin

Mikhail Goydin: There was even a large Polish diaspora, the Smolensk gentry. She kept very separately, only girls from Poland took their wives, brought them from there, spoke Polish. These were mostly nobles, wore a Polish dress, lived according to Polish customs and rules, they did not let anyone into their Wednesday. And all the time, of course, looked at the west.

Vladimir Markov: Very serious repressions were in the late 20s of the twentieth century precisely and primarily against the Poles in Smolensk. Belopol movement - everything was nearby.

Mikhail Goydin: Although there was no civil war as such.

Vladimir Markov: Yes, this is the struggle with the "enemies of the people." After this struggle, plus the Great Patriotic War, when the city was destroyed by 97%, out of 50 thousand pre -war, about 17 thousand inhabitants in the city remained. The core of the hereditary urban population was not preserved, it was practically destroyed. After the war, mostly people from the villages, from the district, moved here, and this is a completely different population, these are the descendants of the peasants.

Gennady Lastovsky

Gennady Lastovsky: Constant wars led to the fact that a person was forced to adapt to such conditions, so Smolyans, to put it mildly, are too tolerant to everything. You have to be harder for things that are not the core of your life. Today, a lot of immigrants from other territories of Russia live in the city, for whom the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Commonwealth is an empty phrase. For them, this page of history is either not open or closed, this component is absent for them. It can only be talked about for the indigenous Smolyans living in generations on this earth, but unfortunately, there are not so many. And the image of a resident of Smolensk today is completely different compared to existing in the XV or in the XVII century. Many do not even represent things related to the history of the city. It is necessary to introduce people to the history of the city, there must be signs, information that would make a person touch history are important. The role of these states in the history of Smolensk is reflected in preserved monuments. Even look at the main Smolensk Cathedral - Uspensky, it is eclectic from the inside, and to say that this is a classic Orthodox temple, no one will turn the tongue. His eclecticism is rather even uniate than typically Orthodox. But this is due to the fact that the design was carried out by masters from Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, who introduced their characteristics into it. And this also needs to be explained, because people notice it, and they have the feeling that their city is a little alien, they understand it and do not understand it at the same time. This misunderstanding of the city comes from a lack of information.

Anatoly Sterlagov: Smolyans were distinguished by independence and patriotism, but this is not state patriotism, but it was Smolensk. They protected primarily the interests of their family, their city. In the whole history of Smolensk, patriotism was in the first place, it was always independent. And from the point of view of the centralization of the authorities, you are absolutely right, in Smolenskoye for several centuries there was a folk vecerate. At the same time, the power of the boyars or feudal lords was very powerful. Nevertheless, I would also put the freedom of personality in the first place. At that time, a person was more free than today's person, each street gathered to solve its problems, each street had its own Ukluchkom. Smolensk is located on the hills, and many people lived in Posads - settlements, which then became almost villages. People gathered there and discussed the problems that had to be solved. Independence was at a rather high level, everyone could express their opinion, the freedom of voice was. Then there was a Lithuanian party in Smolensk, there were Russian people who called themselves Smolyans. There were people oriented to Moscow, mainly this is still the Orthodox Church. About the choice where to go further - towards Lithuania and Poland or towards Moscow - there were different opinions, and independence was still in the first place, Smolensk wanted to maintain its individual characteristics and features.

Olga Efimkina: The monument to our former conflicts is the building of the church, and I am worried that it is now in very poor condition. The Catholic community was ready at some point to take it, restore and use it, but for some reason it was not done.

Elena Fanailova: They recently searched for the grave of the French general, right?

Olga Efimkina

Olga Efimkina: Yes, Gyuden . There was a dance floor on this grave in Soviet times, perhaps therefore, the skeleton in very poor condition, the skull is literally flattened. We have, wherever you are a shirt, you find a story everywhere, the remains of heroes of different times, defenders or enemies. This is even familiar to us already. The modern Smolyan, spinning in the spikers of ordinary affairs, does not think about it, does not comprehend this, maybe even on the holiday of November 4 does not remember, does not connect it especially with Smolensk. Unfortunately, there is a character trait that we call in Smolensk - resin. This means to believe that you live in a bad, uninteresting city, around uninteresting people, you can’t trust anyone and so on. From the people who come to us from other cities, you usually hear enthusiastic exclamations, and everyone tells that you just put your leg out of the train - and it is heard from all sides: "Why did you come to this hole? What will you do here?"

We have, wherever a shock, you find a story everywhere

Vladimir Markov: We have three temples left in a more or less good condition, one-Peter and Paul, it is located near the station, this is the middle of the XII century. He was restored by the outstanding restorer of Baranovsky, and is almost in its original form. There is also the Church of Mikhail Archangel, among the people it is called Svirskaya, it has been preserved by 70 percent in its original form. These two monuments from the Old Russian Smolensk architectural school survived, along with the Church of the Paraskev Friday in Veliky Novgorod. Here, even its own architectural school was, in which local temples were built, at the beginning of the 13th century it was very popular, the temples erected in this architectural tradition were very popular in ancient Rus'. Most of them died during the struggle for Smolensk, in the first half of the 17th century, a lot was lost. Then the ethnic composition of the Smolensk district, Smolensk and the western part of the Smolensk land almost completely changed. Polish sources testify: after Sigismund III still took Smolensk in 1611, the city and the district were a completely uninhabited territory, those ancient Smolyans were left. In the XVIII century, it was mainly the population, who came here for permanent residence in the first half of the 17th century to keep this territory. Sigismund needed people, and he introduced Magdeburg law , there were a lot of benefits to attract the population here. He attracted the gentry very much, these are Catholics, and there were a lot of Jews. In the Russian state, at that time, they were very bad about people professing Judaism, they were executed. Sigismund understood that the Jews would also defend Smolensk when the Russian state would want to return this territory. So the ethnic composition has changed a lot, the continuity was interrupted, the documents were not preserved. Scientists have found that most of the ancient documents were taken out of here by Vitovt after 1404, most likely, when the final conquest of the Smolensk principality occurred, and what else remained in the city, died in the 17th century.

Gennady Lastovsky: As for the events of the late XVI - early XVII century, there is a completely unpaired field. Part of the wall is closed, is in critical condition, but this could be fixed. Here we have a bastion of bastard, also a Marse field, which is used more for events not related to the defense of Smolensk in 1609-11. We need people who would bear it on themselves. Culture officials are not always well versed in the history of Smolensk, and people who could do something in this situation in conjunction, wake up interest in history.

Elena Fanailova: Michael, please tell us about the book "Smolensk", a magical guide for a German soldier. The German soldier of World War II comes to Smolensk, and for him the Wehrmacht issues a guide.

Mikhail Goydin: Here, during the occupation, there were a lot of German hospitals from all over the central direction, and the wounded Germans were brought here from Moscow, there were several thousand of them. In order for the recovery to understand where their hard fate brought them, the occupation administration issued such a guide for them. It consists of three parts, the first part tells about the past and present of Smolensk, as the Germans saw it, and there are a lot of outdated or erroneous information here, but for me, as a historian, this view is interesting and unusual. The second part talks about the battles for Smolensk 1941, as the Germans saw, and this is the most propaganda part, where the Bolsheviks are shown exclusively in a negative way, and the Germans are almost liberators. And the third part is about the monuments and inscriptions of Smolensk. I often show this book in the key to this monument with the eagles, the most beautiful in Smolensk, dedicated to the war of 1812. There are no parts of the decor on it, divorced even with the Bolsheviks - a double -headed eagle in a wreath. The monument was a rock, an eagle nest, and two eagles that protect their nest from the Roman legion trying to ruin it, with the face of the young Napoleon. Fortunately, these torn parts escaped the fate of other monuments sent to the remelting in the late 20s and early 30s, were hidden by the local historian-local historian, they were returned only after the death of Stalin. It is interesting that this book begins with the fact that "the beginning of the history of Russia is covered with darkness," and there is a lot about the campaign of Askold and Dir . According to this book, the path from the Varangians to the Greeks on which Smolensk arose, belonged to the Varangians, the Slavs came and captured it. Askold and Dir decided to free this path from the Slavs and went along it, and here they remained and formed their state.

Anatoly Sterlagov: The original Smolensk, located in Gnezdovo (according to most historians, is indicated by all kinds of archaeological surveys), was actually formed by the Scandinavians, it was the VIII century and the beginning of IX, when the Vikings, that is, Normans, began to conquer Europe. They were primarily interested in the taxes that they collected, that is, a tribute, but also trade. They knew how to build ships and go on long distances. In the areas of the Baltic states, they built fortifications, were in Sweden and in the Baltic states, and these were transshipment points for the Scandinavian squads, a trade fortress. Gnezdovo was a multi -ethnic city, everyone lived there - both the Slavs and other peoples. Но славяне в VI веке, во время переселения, пошли вниз по Днепру, занимали южные районы Приднепровья, в верхнем Приднепровье они появились только в конце IX века в большом количестве. И постепенно происходила ассимиляция.

Владимир Марков

Владимир Марков: Раньше древнее поселение Гнездово находилось в 12 километрах западнее Смоленска, а сейчас это уже территория самого города Смоленска. Там еще в конце XIX века грандиозные раскопки проводил московский историк Владимир Ильич Сизов, он раскапывал курганы, очень много всего раскопал. Там огромный могильник, сейчас уже очень сильно сократившийся, а в то время насчитывавший около пяти тысяч насыпей, это был крупнейший в Европе курганный языческий могильник. Сизов установил, что это могильники поселений, относящихся к формированию Древней Руси IX–X века. Он раскопал больше тысячи курганов, у него было очень много предметов материальной культуры того периода. На их основании он первым пришел к выводу, что здесь, в этом древнерусском поселении, ведущую роль играли скандинавы, они тут всем правили. Эта концепция утвердилась в исторической литературе, среди историков. После прихода к власти большевиков, и особенно после Великой Отечественной войны, очень сильно изменились тенденции в советской истории, историографии, в Смоленск приехали "правильные" советские археологи, начавшие изучать местные древности уже на других основаниях. В результате исследований московских археологов из МГУ совершенно изменилась концепция не только того, что было найдено, какая культура, кто жил в древнем Гнездове, но и вообще того, где, как и когда возник Смоленск.

Геннадий Ластовский: Совершенно разные периоды истории Смоленска. Исторический период в Великом княжестве Литовском не связан с серьезными потерями, ущемлениями. Это принцип великих князей Литовских: мы не рушим старины, и это все объясняло. С Речью Посполитой немножко другая история, это сложнее, это болезненнее. Это насаждение католичества. И это влияние на историю Смоленска не совсем положительное. Единственное, что можно здесь сказать, с Речью Посполитой на территорию области пришло довольно много мелких шляхетских родов из Западной Белоруссии и из Польши, которые со временем, допустим, в XIX веке составили славу и гордость не только Смоленского края, но и всей России. Я имею в виду Пржевальских, Повало-Швейковских, Глинки, Мусоргские. Это целая плеяда людей, внесших свой вклад в общую копилку истории России и Смоленщины, в том числе. То есть здесь возникает двойственность.

Елена Фанайлова: Вы порой выступаете в костюме европейского наемника.

Михаил Гойдин: Да, у меня много разных костюмов.

Елена Фанайлова: Как вы объясняете людям, которые на вас смотрят и вас слушают, кто вы такой?

Михаил Гойдин: Это было время 30-летней войны , вся Европа воевала, воевали католики с протестантами. Это было время наемнических профессиональных армий, наемники собирались в группы и покупались тем или иным правителем, воевали на той или иной стороне. В военном отношении они были более продвинутые, и их предпочитали покупать, в том числе, русские цари. Наемники воевали как на русской, так и на польской стороне. Во время второй смоленской войны 1632–34 годов они тоже сыграли большую роль, однако для Московского государства эта война закончилась неудачно.

Владимир Марков: Из-за стычек верхушки наемников с Шеиным , руководившим войсками, они практически перешли на сторону польско-литовского войска, и в результате московское войско в Смоленске потерпело полное поражение.

Михаил Гойдин: Конечно, был фактор, что и сам Шеин был недостаточно мобилен.

Владимир Марков: Шеин был несдержанным человеком, он постоянно им напоминал об их предательстве, об их измене, напрямую называл предателями и изменниками этих бояр во главе с будущим патриархом, отцом Михаила Романова, Филаретом.

Елена Фанайлова: Возможен ли какой-то разговор с белорусскими или польскими историками по вопросу Смоленска? Или у каждого своя версия развития сюжета?

Михаил Гойдин: Разные есть. В Смоленске проводятся иногда исторические мероприятия, конференции, и есть такие польские историки, которых здесь не хотят видеть принципиально.

Елена Фанайлова: А у них какая версия истории?

Михаил Гойдин: Вот что Смоленск – польский город.

Владимир Марков: А некоторые белорусы придерживаются взглядов, что это белорусский город.

Ольга Ефимкина: Была трагедия с польским самолетом , и хвост этих событий тянется до сих пор. Этот самолет все еще лежит у нас, и до некоторого времени его можно даже было видеть из окна многоэтажек, потом его покрыли саркофагом. Это тоже стало нашей обыденностью. Если говорить о массовом сознании, пожалуй, смолянину непонятны обвинения, звучащие с польской стороны, потому что мы все прекрасно знаем, что нашим аэропортом не пользовались в таких целях, попытка сесть там пассажирскому самолету нам кажется странной, и как они приняли это решение, нам непонятно, с нашей точки зрения это кажется рискованным. У нас никогда не было регулярного пассажирского авиасообщения большими лайнерами. Насколько мне известно, в советское время военная часть там жила плохо, потом аэропорт почти перестал использоваться, вокруг были расформированы военные части, а там еще теплилась жизнь. Он и сейчас особенно активно не используется.

Анатолий Стерлягов: Поляков здесь много. После того, как Смоленск вошел в состав Московского государства, поляков много осталось, они родились здесь, они приняли новое подданство. Более того, во время московского владения здесь было Войско Польское. Если требовалось, Москва вела разнообразные войны, допустим, завоевание Новгородской республики, причем это происходило дважды и достаточно кроваво. Много чего было в XV-XVI веках, смоленские солдаты и офицеры в этих войнах участвовали, и там были и поляки, причем польские командиры и солдаты, можно сказать, профессиональные войска.

Смоляне вообще плохо знают историю города, и это большая проблема

Елена Фанайлова: В Грюнвальдской битве смоленские полки участвовали против немцев-крестоносцев, вместе с литовскими и польскими войсками, более того, героически себя там показали.

Анатолий Стерлягов: Да, и когда воевали с Тевтонским орденом, они выиграли Грюнвальдскую битву, смоляне были в составе и проявили там чудеса храбрости.

Ольга Ефимкина: Мы наше приграничное положение даже не ощущаем, потому что есть Беларусь, а она такая своя, родная, она же не отличается от нас во многом. Наши регионы, непосредственно граничащие со странами Евросоюза, ощущают что-то в большей степени. Плюс к тому от тех польских времен нам ничего не осталось в плане архитектуры, вещественных памятников. История Смоленска была такова, что мы множество раз стирались с лица земли, после того польского времени это было еще дважды. Смоляне вообще плохо знают историю города, и это большая проблема, на этих эпизодах не делается упор в школе, что мы оказывались в других государствах на некоторое время. Человек может прожить всю жизнь в Смоленске и не знать об этом.

Елена Фанайлова: Скажем про чувства интеллигента в этом волшебном городе. Who are we? Город находится на границе всех миров, это как-то влияет на наше сознание?

Владимир Марков: Тутошнее сознание как бы в аморфном состоянии.

Михаил Гойдин: В то же время читающая публика может занять любую сторону: мы – русские, мы – белорусы, сейчас поляки придут – будем польскими.

Владимир Марков: Пропольских очень мало.

Михаил Гойдин: Такие люди есть.

Владимир Марков: В дошедших до нас смоленских грамотах, написанных в XIII-XIV веках, есть два термина для населения между немецкими городами и Смоленском, Смоленским княжеством: немцы – немчины, смоляне – русины. Все зависит от того, с какого времени начинать отсчет истории. Если с этого времени, то русские, конечно, русины, потомки русинов. А в Белоруссии очень любят время Витовта и самого Витовта, это для них выдающийся деятель и основа всех основ. Люди, придерживающиеся этих взглядов, считают, что Смоленск – белорусский город. Поляки считают, что там, где побывала нога поляка, все польское.

Михаил Гойдин: Смоленск являлся довольно значимой частью Западнорусского государства. В современной России каждый регион, в особенности на окраинах, имеет сепаратистские нотки, в том же Архангельске есть своя самоидентичность: мы северные люди, мы свободные люди. И здесь, в Смоленске, тоже есть такое. Можно назвать московита московитом, а поляка поляком, но мы здесь свои.

Елена Фанайлова: Во времена нового политического популизма мы, скорее, привыкли к тому, что история, прошлое, особенно связанное с военными конфликтами, становится предметом политических спекуляций. А другая постановка вопроса, другая задача состоит в том, чтобы прошлое стало предметом новой идентификации, ресурсом для того, чтобы люди, страны, общества научились говорить между собой на новом языке, где нет места для шовинистического патриотизма, и отношения выстраиваются на других основаниях, при полном знании и осознании прошлого.