"They can kill everyone." Lev Schlosberg about politics in modern Russia

Alexei Navalny returned to Russia and was immediately detained. For the sake of the "unnecessary blogger," they changed the route of the aircraft, paralyzed the work of two airports and organized a court session - to arrest Navalny for 30 days, the judge came to the police department, where the politician was taken directly from the aircraft. What does such a reaction of power mean? How will this affect protest moods in Russia and is a change in power possible in our country? The correspondent of the North. Realia discussed these issues with Leo Schlosberg, a deputy of the Pskov Regional Assembly, a member of the Federal Political Committee of the Yabloko party.

- You sharply criticized both the “voter strike” in 2018, and the “smart voting” strategy invented by the Naval Strategy. But now, I noticed, you express unconditional support to Alexei, without any “but”, which was not before. What has changed?

There is a threat to Alexei Navalny, absolutely real. They wanted to kill him and simply could not do it

- We are not now leading to Alexei Navalny on how to build a beautiful Russia of the future. We are not discussing the unification of the Russian democratic opposition, we do not discuss any specific political persons. The situation is completely different. This is a situation of life and death. There is a threat to Alexei Navalny, absolutely real. They wanted to kill him and simply could not do it. There is a threat to his freedom, moreover for many years. There is a threat to his right to engage in legal political activity, which he is deprived of. Now the conversation about Navalny is a conversation about the rights and freedoms of man and not only one particular person Alexei Navalny, this is a conversation about the rights and freedoms of a person in Russia in general. It’s just that the higher the person rises in politics, the higher his risks, higher than his threat. And ordinary people, seeing what is happening with Navalny, ask the question: is it necessary to participate in politics at all? Do I need to go through this? Does this make sense?

- Need to?

- Need to! Politics is the only way to cure the political plague that Russia is sick. The whole world is experiencing the pandemic of coronavirus, and our country is experiencing two pandemias. The second is a political pandemic, Putin's pandemic. And the only way to get rid of this "coronavirus" is to resist him openly and publicly.

"The situation becomes almost black and white"

- The authorities practically imposed a ban on politics classes - the last package of political laws speaks of this. How to engage in politics when politics becomes criminally punished?

- That is why politics should be engaged. These laws and this repressive practice show that the authorities are most afraid of elections, afraid of free people. Putin 20 years consistently, with fire and a sword, burns public policy in our country. He does it consciously, in a square-nested way. And everything that remains alive after this air raid, it destroys again and again. Putin's task is that there is no public policy in the country, except for the one that is inscribed in the current government and serves those people who exercise this power.

They are trying to prohibit freedom of speech, freedom of rallies and meetings, freedom of belief, freedom of conscience. And this is about the same as trying to prohibit air

Therefore, the situation in our country becomes very contrasting. In a sense, it is very bad for society, but the situation becomes almost black and white. In general, I can’t say that this is half a step, but it is very close to the state of the civil war. I am not sure that Putin understands this, because he has an illusion of omnipotence and in some part it is not an illusion. Its capabilities now exceed the capabilities of Russian emperors. There was no person with such powers at the head of our country, unless not comparing Putin with Stalin. There are a lot of sad parallels here.

But, in any case, if we want to change the country, we must engage in politics. Moreover, we must engage in a policy that does not lead to blood. And this becomes really more complicated, because every word said, each expressed opinion can be dangerous for a person. The authorities, in fact, are trying to ban freedom as such. They are trying to prohibit freedom of speech, freedom of rallies and meetings, freedom of belief, freedom of conscience. And this is about the same as trying to prohibit air, try to ban oxygen. But they are trying!

- The example of Alexei Navalny shows that they will not stop even before the murder attempt.

- Yes, I think this is not only Alexei Navalny. In the near future, the following investigations of Christ Grozev will be published. And there the names of people who were either killed, or whose lives attempted, in fact, the same people will be made public. We will understand that we are dealing with the system of political murders, that is, the question is not only in the attempt to kill Alexei Navalny. The question is that in Russia, as well as in the Soviet Union, there is a system of political murders with the help of special services.

People should understand that the country is governing and political decisions are made by killers

In fact, this is not news, unfortunately. For Russian society, the news after the attempt to kill Navalny was that these killings are taking place in Russia. When Litvinenko was killed-it was somewhere in the UK. When they attacked the Skripals-it was also somewhere in the UK, and two almost clown Petrov and Boshirov explained which cathedral they went to look in Salisbury. It was somewhere far away, in another world, and it seems like with enemies, with the traitors who left. And here this happened in Siberia, in the center of the country, and before that there were two cases of attempt on the life of Vladimir Kara-Murza (I do not exclude that among those materials that will be published by Christ Grozev, both of these episodes will be).

Therefore, in my opinion, the clarification of the face (although here the word "face" is somehow difficult to apply), the real person of the Russian authorities is very important for Russian society. People should understand that the country is governing and political decisions are made by killers, moreover, not individual killers. This is an organized criminal group acting by preliminary conspiracy using the state power resource. If you look at the Criminal Code, this is a complete list of all conceivable aggravating circumstances for crimes that people who occupy public positions can commit.

And another assumption. Perhaps yesterday’s events would not be so dramatic if it were not for the investigation of the attempt on Alexei Navalny. If this investigation was not done, it had not been published and did not show all this horror, this state -owned machine of political murders, maybe the events would not have developed so fatal.

- Could you not delay it then?

It is impossible to be a benefactor, take care of people and at the same time organize political killings! It’s just impossible!

- I do not exclude that yes - if the situation with Navalny’s poisoning was, as it were, unclear, not fully understandable ... Well, the opinions of experts from Russia and specialists from Germany were dispersed, diagnostic assessments were dispersed, but there would be no obvious conclusions, indisputable evidence, including Alexei Navalny’s personal conversation with one of the participants in this group of killers. It seems to me that the danger to Putin and his regime was precisely this investigation, the disclosure of the entire system, the mechanism of these political murders, because it changes the image of the Russian authorities that are notorious, few people interested, the people who are notorious. Well, it is impossible to be a benefactor, take care of people and at the same time organize political killings! It’s just impossible!

- And you yourself, as a fundamental opposition policy, were not scared after you found out what they are capable of?

- I did not recognize anything new for myself, if you do not mean the details of a particular crime. From the very first day after the attempt on Alexei Navalny, on August 19, this poisoning was an attempt to kill. I saw it that way.

- Are you afraid for yourself?

I am not ready now to specifically try on the situation, sorry, political murder

- I think that I went through the barrier when a person makes a decision within himself - whether to go further. This barrier was not passed yesterday. And I have no reason to return to thoughts on this topic. Risks grow many times. I think that the number of political murders can really increase in our country, because this system does not know how to negotiate, it does not know how to take into account anyone's interests. She does not intend to reckon with anyone except herself. And when people arise who are categorically not ready to change their position, which is especially important - an open, public position, the system is able to make any decision. I’m not ready to seek the situation on myself now, sorry, political murder, but I am aware that if someone in this car wants to take such an action, then there are no obstacles to this.

- When politics becomes the issue of life and death, it seems to me that it is no longer so much about the usual struggle for power, but about the revolutionary struggle, about the revolution. How are Russian citizens ready to participate in this, do you think?

- When you said that politics was becoming a matter of life and death, I was ready to answer immediately with a phrase - that is why now "I/we Alexei Navalny." Because it is a matter of life and death, it is a question of human rights to life.

“But this is not a rhetorical question.”

- This is not a rhetorical, this is an absolutely specific question. Everyone can kill. Every citizen of Russia, who is today opposition democratic policy, must understand or know, in any case, that they can simply kill him.

Any revolutionary situation in Russia strives for blood. We are a country with extremely burdened political heredity

- Well, then who will go to the polls in their right mind, go to the rally?

- Then it's time to talk about the elections and the revolution. That's the time! Any revolutionary situation in Russia strives for blood. We are a country with extremely burdened political heredity. It is impossible to change, it is important to understand and this must be taken into account. Any calls for the revolution in Russia are ultimately calls for mass executions, calls to hang on lanterns and shoot like crazy dogs. It cannot result in anything else. In the history of the twentieth century, in general, in the history of Russia, one revolution, which took place almost bloodlessly, the word "almost", in fact, is of essential. This is 1991, when three people died at the time of the putsch, and three thousand people could die and, perhaps, even thirty thousand people, if events developed according to the military scenario from the couples. But then other events occurred that made the consequences of this revolution more bloody. We have experience in experiencing a peaceful revolution-this is the end of the 1980s and until 1991 inclusive, but there is no experience of reasonable use of the results of this social revolution.

"An alternative to elections is only blood"

- But the question is different. In order for power to be replaced by a peaceful, natural way, the authorities must lose the election.

- Yes, but we must win.

- But our government has all the tools to win the elections, and there is no intention to lose them .

- This is not a win. Throughout official statistics, if we are talking about elections (and we are now talking about elections, and not about voting on July 1 - this is a separate incident who is waiting for its researchers with the Criminal Code in their hands, everything is time), now the minority of Russian citizens is involved in the elections. The farther, the less, because people, including, were disappointed in the possibilities of peacefully changing power and force power to hear themselves. And then political work begins, the work of politicians. This work is to constantly explain to people that only blood is an alternative to elections! There is no other alternative.

There will simply be a rotten, covered with dark autocracy, where one villain in power will replace another villain in power, and the power will thus degenerate

By the way, we had a dispute with Alexei Navalny about this exactly three years ago: if we do not participate in the elections and pull off, then this is madness, this political "coronavirus" in our country forever, just forever. There will simply be such a rotten, cord covered with the darkness of autocracy, where one villain in power will replace the other a villain in power, and the power will thus degenerate, self -processed. And moreover, each next will be worse than the previous one according to the laws of political genetics.

The only Archimedean lever to break this extremely sad scenario is the consolidation of society on political tasks, the main of which is the election. In fact, it is now very weak, the Russian democratic opposition is not enough for the political struggle. It was destroyed not only by Putin, Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin began to be destroyed, and Putin continued his business and raised him to a new level. And you need to understand that the responsibility of politicians is to make people a political proposal, to say: "Here we are - vote for us! Here I am - vote for me!"

In order to say this, a person must consciously go to very high political risks and very high personal risks and risks for his loved ones, for his family. The fact that Julia Navalny and Dasha and Zakhar are now experiencing is a real tragedy. The life of loved ones is a politician who is simply not allowed to live, turned into hell. I am sure that the organizers of all crimes against Navalny understand this perfectly and may even expect that from this side to Alexei Navalny, as well as on other opposition politicians, pressure will be put on the type: "Well, Alexey, that's all, we can’t live like that anymore." But to the honor of Julia Navalny - she is a worthy wife of her husband, this is obvious.

- Alexey Navalny proved that he is ready to sacrifice his life for the future of his country. Maybe, finally, our democratic opposition will now cease to be recovering, sorting out details and nuances and will simply unite around it?

- The entire Russian political system is now formatted in such a way that any unification of the political opposition is possible only on the basis of one political party. It’s not just for us that political blocs in the elections have been prohibited for the 16th year. Electoral blocks are a key tool in the political assembly of forces that are ready to occupy a common political position and defend the general political platform. Putin understood this literally 4-5 years after the start of his political activity.

Navalny was not allowed to register a political party, it is not, and they will not be given to Putin. The conditions of the activities of other political parties are extremely difficult. The conditions for financing political activity in Russia are extremely complicated in order not to say anymore. There is a specific situation - 2016. For four months, literally from February to May inclusive, I conducted negotiations in Moscow with various, in fact, a few Russian democratic politicians, including Alexei Navalny. We met several times with him and with the representatives of his team - with any sable, with Kolya Lyaskin, with Leonid Volkov. I remember all these meetings well. It was about the creation of a united democratic team on the basis of the Yabloko party. For ethical reasons, I can’t reveal how they passed and why these negotiations did not end successfully, but I can say that such negotiations were extremely difficult, because in the end these were negotiations about who would strengthen whom in politics. Somewhere around the fourth step, if not in the fifth, these negotiations stopped, since one of the proposals that we received was impossible for us. I can’t say in any way in more detail.

Although it seems that there is no bottom, but we may still hear how the next parliament will knock on us below

Now 2021. There will be elections to the State Duma in which nothing in the pole is swaying. I have the impression that the next State Duma wants to make even more monstrous. Although it seems that there is no bottom, but we may still hear how the next parliament will knock on us below. And here there is an important understanding in the context of our previous conversation about the readiness of society for protest. For successful protest, two conditions are needed. The first condition is, of course, the ripening of society, its readiness for the public expression of his position. And the second condition, moreover, the second equal, is the presence of a civil society, the opposition to the authorities (now specifically Putin), legitimate representatives at the level of the federal parliament. This combination of indignant society and its legal representatives in politics creates the possibilities of a peaceful change in power. One wing cannot be torn from another.

If in 2021 a group appeared in the State Duma of Russia, a faction of democratic politicians, directly opposition to Putin, then society will feel its strength, feel its success, feels what it succeeded. The huge problem of demoralization of society is that the efforts of millions of people, and for each specific person, their personal efforts are unsuccessful. People go to the polls and lose. People protest, and their voice is not just taking into account, they don’t even talk to them. And the lack of success history is exhausted by society. This turns into syndrome of learned helplessness. It is very dangerous for society.

Pandemia has changed a lot, very few opportunities for direct full -time communication. It is now impossible to imagine the same cycle of negotiations on the preparation of a team in the State Duma in 2021, which was in 2016. And the task is the same - to go to parliament and cover, protect with the help of deputies of the State Duma of ordinary citizens participating in the protest. So that next to an ordinary citizen, a State Duma deputy with immunity could stand, and say: "I'm here!"

- It is about the fact that Yabloko has an institutional force to go to the State Duma - without collecting signatures, as a parliamentary party. And Alexei Navalny has support. And if you compare these two political cycles, 2016 and 2021, then, it seems to me, Navalny has even more increased his political capital, and the “Yabloko” was even more uttering. So the question is: is the party ready to provide its capabilities for the United opposition, headed by Navalny, in order to win the elections to the State Duma?

- Four questions in one. First. I am sure (this is my personal confidence) that this year is ready for negotiations with the team of Alexei Navalny.

- Question - from what position?

- This is a question of negotiations themselves. We are not a car - this is absolutely for sure. The political party is not a car where any person can simply go and tell the driver: "Please take me from Tverskaya to Sadovaya." This is not that design. In the Yabloko party, there are politicians who are ready to be high -quality, as we said today, deputies of the State Duma and defend the interests of civil society. Moreover, if you calculate the number of politicians within the Yabloko party and the number of politicians within the team of Alexei Navalny, I think that one of the parties will not have the opportunity to say that "I have more." Because there are a number of surnames worthy of names worthy of people who can be discussed.

It's about life and death, about freedom and non -freedom and about whether we can live in our country as free people or cannot

Accordingly, the task is to discuss participation in the State Duma elections both in the party list, including in the general Federal part of the list, and in single -mandate districts, those politicians from the team of Alexei Navalny, who has the opportunity to participate in the elections. Unfortunately, Alexei Navalny himself cannot take part in these elections, because he has formal legal restrictions. And, accordingly, the question will arise the same as it was in 2016, but with a greater degree of severity, because the degree of occurring around the nightmare has increased significantly. Will Navalny be ready to support the team where he himself will not be personally? And this decision can only be made by Alexei Navalny.

In this situation, you need to understand very well what exactly is discussed (we emphasize for readers that now I am not conducting these negotiations). It is important that both the Navalny team and the Yabloko team initially understand the same way that we are talking about - about creating a team that feels the strength in order to go to the State Duma. This team should present all those politicians who, according to certain criteria, are ready for parliamentary work in the State Duma. You need to understand that such a team will very seriously counteract. The legal preparation of this team for the elections should be impeccable - they will not forgive a single mistake, not a single comma put in a wrong place. But this is the next stage. Now it is important to understand whether both sides have a will to negotiate. My common answer is from the position in which I am now from the city of Pskov is positive, yes. Precisely because we are talking about life and death, about freedom and not free and about whether we can live in our country as free people or cannot. On this platform, the widest unification of the democratic opposition is possible, but all participants should be the will to negotiate.

- Are the inhabitants of Russia ready to change the authorities?

- Yes! I am convinced that most of the inhabitants of Russia, if we take a full list - 148 million people - and conduct a well -closed survey with all guarantees of secrets, most of Russia will break up into two huge audiences. The first audience is people who want a direct and complete change of power. The second is people who want significant political changes in the country. There is a very subtle thing here, and not all politicians understand these. For the most part, people do not matter which politician is a carrier of good (political actions that are supported by people). If we now assume that Putin in the 21st year of his reign turns into an effective, modern and kind person, we must admit that millions and millions of people will support it. And here is the first audience that requires the change of politicians to change the authorities, and the second audience that requires a change in politics, but does not categorically insist on changing politicians - these two audiences will clump to the decisive moment. They will not be completely closed, with losses, because radical points of view are cut off by the course of history. But it is quite obvious that at some point these people will become an absolute majority in our country. And then the main question will arise: who are those politicians who are ready to take responsibility for more than half of the people?

We remember the Soviet Most, we remember how the Soviet Union broke up, how before that it tormented people, how a political monopoly destroyed the very possibility of a drop of freedom, except within itself

There was no answer to this question in the conditional 1991. It turned out that then the politicians were not at the level of the expectations of the people. They did not realize that the people who led them to power (specifically Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin and his team), first of all, wanted not only the change of disgusting, filthy and vile CPSU to some other people, but wanted the change of politics. And this is the fatal error of the early 90s for our country. Politicians did not understand their people and dipped the people in that plague, which has been going on for 30 years.

We, Russian democratic politicians, almost all - people born in Soviet times. We remember the Soviet Most, we remember how the Soviet Union broke up, how before that it tormented people, how a political monopoly destroyed the very possibility of a drop of freedom, except within himself. We remember how tens of millions of people later collapsed. If this invaluable experience that we possess will now be able to melt into an understanding of how to behave in relation to people with the historical turning point that we all inevitably do, then we will have a chance of success. Then there will be a chance to build the very beautiful Russia of the future, which many are talking about, but not everyone understands, unfortunately, at what cost it can be built.