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The transition to the online put a classic education system before the need to re -build a learning process in a digital environment. In the search for decisions, universities and schools were forced to contact commercial training platforms. How can they use schools and universities, what to do with big data to find an individual approach to the student, and why is it useful for the system to see your mistakes, the professor of the Russian Economic School, Konstantin Egorov, head of the Olympiad Olympiads, graduate Rash Gayane Simonyan and the Skillbox-director Vlad Sitnikov said. This is the fifth discussion from the Clubhouse of Clubhouse social network, organized by RASH and VTIMES.

VTIMES publishes the main theses.

Is the formation of the future a personal education? Will it replace completely mass training?

Konstantin Egorov: We are used to thinking that personal education is piece in nature. At school, we were told how Aristotle taught Alexander the Great: on the one hand, it was very cool, and on the other hand, there was not enough Aristotle on anyone other than the Macedonian. Now imagine that in the future, instead of Aristotle, there will be a huge database with lectures and seminars from a variety of teachers. And with the help of some cunning mechanism, each student can give the fragment right to him. When Aristotle saw that Alexander was more interesting than another, he probably switched. And now it will do a supercomputer or artificial intelligence. In my opinion, the formation of the future will be both individual and massive, accessible to everyone. And this will be his power and strength.

Gayane Simonyan: The formation of the future will not necessarily be personal. I would talk about him as a hybrid: a combination of online and offline formats of education looks like a very likely script for a long time. In any option, no one is going to completely abandon the teacher. But it is also clear that we have grown to the opportunity to automate many processes. I believe that education will not completely switch to a personal scenario. As Konstantin said, the formation of the future will be both personal and massive, but if a large number of processes of maintaining training are performed by an algorithm, then they become more scalable, and therefore affordable and mass. At the same time, you need to understand that the more the algorithms are developed, the more detailed the individual educational trajectory of the student can be. It turns out a paradox: the personalization of education goes hand in hand with its mass.

Vlad Sitnikov: It seems to me that many problems are hidden in this matter and, perhaps, even delusions. Firstly, an example with Aristotle, which helps Alexander Macedon to build his own program, does not seem correct to me: any training has a goal-to achieve a certain result. Secondly, artificial intelligence in itself as something that creates reality does not exist. These are algorithms that people set, and so far the society does not depend on them. The opposition of mass and individuality as a certain ideal of education is also an illusion, because there is no conflict here. The teacher cannot be excluded from the learning: even if the students are already teaching algorithms, and the program they have received are tested by the program, he still needs to listen, hear and spy the experience of another person. Checking homework will still be connected with a person and in any case will assume an individual approach.

The current development of technology allows this mass to make more original and fascinating. Today, we already consider our competitor not other training platforms, but Netflix, as it attracts the attention of our audience, is engaged in editoidment and publishes training series.

When we completely switch to evidence -based education

Gayane Simonyan: We work in the specific sphere of children's education, so the question of evidence -based education is very important for us. It is very difficult to measure the educational effect of learning, it is difficult to organize the correct A/B test for the quality of knowledge. It is important for us to involve students at different levels in training, but we see that many do not reach the end of the course and end it only the most persistent. Assessing the effect of some kind of sample tools from the most persistent students is incorrect. Now the team from graduates Rash began to measure the educational effect with us. They launched a tool for evaluating students' knowledge on the basis of data on what tasks the guys solved on our platform. The problem is how to validate this tool: for this we need some objective results of children to compare our data with them. This can be, for example, the results of the OGE and the exam, but, of course, no one gives us.

What does the request of students look like an individual approach to learning

Konstantin Egorov: Students really ask for the individualization of learning than I can offer them. They pull me in different directions: someone quickly masters the material and asks where it can still be used, and someone, on the contrary, asks me to repeat any conclusion of the formulas. In fact, I can’t go in either direction or the other, because I have to focus on the average student who is silent and does not say anything and who, perhaps, is not so important where to go. And since I cannot fully satisfy their great demand for an individualized education, they, of course, will satisfy it themselves. Students constantly communicate with each other and take the material through this communication: first you will talk to someone who has figured it out better and he will teach you, and then you will explain something to him. However, it turns out that in this independent development of the material, none of them is a professional: they are all like amateurs. This is similar to a hypothetical situation: if all the hairdressers ceased to exist and we would all have to cut our time at home. In my opinion, individual education is incompatible with a traditional audience, in which 30 or 100 people come to listen to the same thing.

How data helps to choose an individual approach to the student

Gayane Simonyan: Saying About individualization, of course, we mean, first of all, algorithms that allow you to select the correct complexity of tasks for the student. It is important that it is not too easy and not too difficult: this balance needs to be kept so that the student is motivated to study further. If children are involved in the educational process, they solve more tasks and achieve a greater result. This is also individualization: someone how to involve, how to “pack” the product so that the child wants to return to the site and spend more time there. Our training is built in a classic way: it is a repetition of a simple action with a slight complication on a new iteration. There are no revolutionary approaches here. The path of users “Tech.ru” is individualized in terms of how much time is given to study the material, how much repetitions are needed, what should be the sequence of tasks and the level of complexity.

Vlad Sitnikov: The biggest problem that is in vocational education is profiling. When entering the university, people do not know who they want to become at the exit. And there is no universal tool that would suggest how to build a professional trajectory.

In Skillbox, we solve this problem at the entrance. For those who are registered in the system, a huge questionnaire is provided, filling which a person tells us who he is. According to these data, we understand whether he is able to fulfill the goal that he set when he chose a course, program or profession. Sometimes, according to these data, we immediately see that he will not finish training in this profession, so we can help him adjust his trajectory.

On our platform, many programs suggest the solution of cases and creative tasks that cannot be algorithmized: we always have a teacher. At the same time, in the process of learning, each student has the opportunity to evaluate the module that he passes. The average indicator of satisfaction with modules and blocks is 92% in 150,000 students. These data allow us to immediately see which of our over 500 programs loses in quality and ceases to satisfy students' needs. As soon as we see this, we immediately change it. This allows us to improve content all the time.

We also monitor the satisfaction index: we look at how people recommend our courses. This also allows us to control the quality of content, so even with an avalanche -like growth of students the index does not fall.

How to find a balance between game forms of learning and its content

Vlad Sitnikov: I do not see problems here. On the contrary, training should become more and more interactive, include more and more gaming mechanics and remove interactivity barriers. Modern children are very different from us, those technologies that we did not have are available to them.

Now I have a task: for the first time in history to create a training program in the form of a series that the user would watch in one breath. There should be their eyes and interchanges, drama, plot turns, cool computer graphics. There are many training films, but there were no educational courses that can be watched in one breath and gain certain knowledge. There is already a request for this in the industry.

Gayane Simonyan: Gamification is a very fashionable word now. The game distinguishes the presence of a goal, quick feedback, progress and pleasant bonuses. Almost all modern services are based on this: a taxi call, an order of food, etc.

If we talk about education, then a clear line - the game ends here, but here begins study - no. But as soon as the child understands that he is already studying and not playing, he becomes many times more difficult to motivate. While he plays, he returns to the platform and achieves the result, he develops endorphin, oxytocin, and so on. And as soon as he begins to study, he immediately says: "I'm bored, I'm tired."

We actively use game competitive mechanics: marathons, olympiads. This perfectly involves, holds and motivates, because with this approach the child has a goal, progress and awards. And this is a very understandable scheme. And when the rules of the game are clear, the child feels comfortable.

There is also a concept: Game-Bassed Learning-a game that is built in training. In the pandemic, we unfolded in this direction. What are the differences in these approaches? Gamification is an educational product wrapped in a game shell. For example, we say to users: a marathon begins, decide interactive cards for speed. And the Game-Based Learning is already a full-fledged game in which educational mechanics are sewn up. For example, we reissued our Mathematics course in RPG format (Role-Playing Game)-role-playing game. There is a character, on behalf of which the child undergoes trials. He moves in the game space, meets other characters, receives from them tasks that need to be solved in order to switch to the next level. Games can leave a student at the educational trajectory. This is a classic beloved by everyone since childhood.

How to organize informal communication between students on training platforms

Vlad Sitnikov is a very big problem of all online education. I have a goal: to create and maintain community in asynchronous education. The difficulty is what: if you are not an education in a group, then you do not have group dynamics. The maximum you can communicate with the teacher and only then, in the defense of the diploma, you will meet the very group, the very stream with which you studied together. On our platform, of course, each stream has its own chats in which communication occurs. However, without physical, visual contact, it is difficult to communicate, and this is the problem that we fight over. I think that everyone who is organizing online learning is faced with the need to fill this gap.

Gayane Simonyan: The lack of live communication is a restraining factor in online education. This, of course, is not only about our online platform, but in general about all the online training. Most people are not ready to voluntarily abandon the informal part of the educational process, and this is normal. At the same time, online learning is more likely an additional tool, and not a complete replacement of traditional education. The fast -growing EDTech segment still takes about 3% of the entire education market - so far it is very small.

If we talk about our platform, then even before the pandemic, a chat has appeared on our site: in personal offices the student and teacher has a correspondence tape. There you can exchange stickers, "earn" them and, of course, correspond. At first it was a chat for the class, and in addition a second, more official, chat for their correspondence with the teacher appeared. We saw that communication is developing very actively, there is demand for it. But, of course, we did not position it as a replacement for personal communication, but considered a feature that adds vigor to the site. And naturally, we cannot completely replace them with the value of classical learning.

What experience did the training platforms in the pandemia gained

Gayane Simonyan: After we saw 10 million new users on our platform in the spring of 2020, we thought they would smoothly go to the fall and we would rest on his laurels. However, this did not happen: both we and other companies noticed the outflow. People were shocked by sharp care in the online and in the fall again wanted personal communication. September was the month of an abnormal fall in activity, but then people began to return and in general returned to significantly higher activity than before the pandemic.

For the pandemic, we learned to outplay the unnecessary. In a growing company, it always seems that everything is important and interesting, but sometimes you need not to fit something necessary on the list of things, but to delete the unnecessary. We learned to delete this unnecessary, leaving only the most important.

In the pandemic, we lost the opportunity to come to schools and personally check how children interact with our product, what they understand and what not. But we learned to conduct testing online. We hired and develop the R&D team (Research & Development): it is engaged in research, conducts quantitative and qualitative surveys, teaches other grocery commands to these methods. This is what we came to the pandemic through pain.

Vlad Sitnikov: Our biggest achievement is the success of the Center for Career Development (TsRK). This is a separate Skillbox unit, which is engaged in employment. Even before the pandemic, in November 2019, we allocated it in a separate service. During the pandemic by the end of last year, we managed to reach the figure of 100 people who, with our help, found a job. 88% of appeals to the Central House of Criminal Procedure was satisfied. Now we have been employed by 150 people a month. Brands and clients in packs take our students, line up for a new batch of graduates. So we turn into a kind of ecosystem. I will not say that this happened only thanks to the pandemic: during this period, with a strong increase in the number of students, we did not fall in the satisfaction index. For us, employment is one of the most important KPIs, and it is important for us that every month the number of people we help to find work is growing.

How training platforms can cooperate with schools and universities

Konstantin Egorov: Based on personal experience, I can name two big milestones in this direction. Once upon a time there was no cooperation. Then, about fifteen years ago, the leading universities took the first step: they took existing courses and made the simplest - recorded the video in good quality, prepared homesh, which, however, could not be checked, and posted all this online. So made Harvard, Yale, Mit, Stanford. And it was a very big step towards the mass and accessibility of education. But this worked only as an additional, and not the basic education: it was too difficult to deal with the materials on its own.

The second step in the education system made it possible to make platforms, for example Coursera, for which university teachers began to create courses that are no longer similar to audit programs and imprisoned specifically for this site. There are short videos and tests in the course, and tasks are checked and look more interactive. It worked much better: in this form it is easier to master something really new, and not just look for an addition to existing knowledge.

Влад Ситников На мой взгляд, мы полезны не просто вузам и школам, а вообще обществу. У нас есть MBA-программа с Высшей школой менеджмента СПбГУ, бакалавриат с РАНХиГС, другие программы, которые мы делаем с ведущими российскими вузами, потому что видим этот запрос.

Что мы можем дать? В первую очередь методологию и знания наших методистов о том, как в большом объеме записывать лекционный материал для массового обучения. Если опять сравнивать себя с Netflix, то мы осознали, что произвели больше контента, чем Netflix, за последний квартал. Запрос на сотрудничество мы видим не только от вузов, но и от государства: сейчас оно заметило нас и тоже просит помощи.

Гаянэ Симонян: Мы всегда были платформой для дополнительного образования. Мы видели это по поведению пользователя: например, пик их активности приходился на выходные дни. И тут наступает пандемия: все образовательные сайты легли мгновенно и выкарабкались только через некоторое время, научившись держать одновременно более 200 000 запросов (в нашем случае). На новый запрос нужно было предложить и новые работающие инструменты, потому что мы вдруг стали платформой не для дополнительного, а для основного образования. А это совершенно другой запрос и совершенно другое поведение пользователя. В этих жестких условиях нам пришлось работать очень быстро, тестировать новые инструменты буквально на бегу. В итоге нам это удалось, и мы увидели, что рынок изменился. В один момент пришло несколько миллионов новых пользователей, которым нужно было предложить не просто новую среду, но и новую форму обучения.

Сейчас мы умеем проводить уроки на сайте, можем давать учителю платформу, на которой он может полноценно провести урок с онлайн-доской, дать домашние задания и там же, на платформе, их проверить. Мы стали экосистемой.

Если говорить о спросе со стороны системы образования, то расскажу об одном кейсе. Однажды мы пришли в МФТИ с предложением сделать совместную олимпиаду для старшеклассников. И в ответ услышали неожиданное предложение: пусть это будет олимпиада по физике для младших классов. Оказалось, что у такого серьезного вуза, как Физтех, есть запрос на знакомство с физикой младших школьников: они хотят, чтобы подрастающее поколение не боялось физики и, возможно, когда-то связало свою жизнь с наукой. Мы очень долго готовили эту игровую олимпиаду, которая планировалась на апрель 2020 г. Однако даже в условиях пандемии, когда казалось, что это событие просто не может привлечь внимание, 1,2 млн пользователей пришли решать задачи по физике в 1–4 классе! А это говорит о том, что даже на первый взгляд совершенно не связанные с начальной школой образовательные учреждения могут приходить в онлайн и делать там продукт, который очень гармоничен аудитории. Мы периодически делаем такие партнерские проекты по разным школьным предметам, чаще всего с университетами.

Константин Егоров: Я очень люблю метафоры и шутки, поэтому хотел бы оформить свою главную мысль по итогам этой дискуссии в такой форме. Есть распространенная шутка: думать, что главное в системе образования — обучение конкретным навыкам и знаниям, — это то же самое, что думать, что во время свидания главное — это ужин. Разделяйте эти две части. То, что онлайн-платформы часть ужина делают гораздо лучше, чем традиционная система образования, — это правда. Но при этом существует неформальная часть образовательного процесса — общение. И это то, что традиционная система все еще делает лучше. Хотелось бы следующим шагом как-то устранить это главное препятствие и разделить эти части, чтобы наконец можно было лучше питаться.

Will there be the formation of the future personal