"He is not crazy, but obsessed." Mikhail Khodorkovsky - About Vladimir Putin

Vitaly Portnikov: According to Western intelligence, Russia is preparing a second wave of a large -scale attack on Ukraine. The day before, Russian troops struck missile strikes in the Odessa region, at risk of Kyiv. Almost destroyed by massive Russian bombing of the city of Irpen and Buch under the Ukrainian capital, they are left without water, products and electricity. Peaceful citizens cannot leave the combat zone due to ongoing shelling. In Europe, there are already more than one and a half million Ukrainian refugees. The army of Ukraine in many directions successfully reflects the attacks of Russian aircraft, but their offensive continues.

The Kremlin clearly did not expect such resistance to the Ukrainian people. What is Vladimir Putin achieved now? How will the West react to the actions of the Russian leadership? In our studio Oksana Yurinets , the head of the Lviv regional organization of the Party, the VISKOY VIII convocation , a deputy of the VIII convocation, in touch Mikhail Khodorkovsky , a Russian entrepreneur, a public and politician.

The army of Ukraine in many directions successfully reflects the attacks of Russian aircraft, but their attack continues

Oksana Yurinets: We are in Lviv. Understanding the wealthy rear is very important. We, those who have good contacts in the European Union, USA, Britain, should talk about what is needed today for Ukraine, for victory. Through the corridor of life, going through our areas, from the West can help those regions that are now under occupation or bombed, like Kharkov, Vinnitsa, Zhytomyr; Kherson’s occupation occurred, and we must do everything so that our military and civilians stay there. Western Ukraine accepts a lot of refugees whose houses are destroyed. For us today, cohesion and power that the Ukrainian people can show in support of the army, volunteers and territorial defense are important.

We write to our partners, congressmen, senators, governments of countries, please close the sky - this is very important. Poland and Lithuania are well aware that now it is necessary to help Ukraine in order to prevent escalation to advance further to the West. Otherwise, the Third World War, which the whole world is afraid, may begin. It is very important that every sane person even in Russia understands that this war is the end of the world.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Mikhail Borisovich, you are now very actively operating in the anti -war committee in the desire to convey to the Russians and to the inhabitants of the Civilized World all the danger of the situation. But how do you consider the prospect: is it possible to stop the war?

Mikhail Khodorkovsky: The war, without a doubt, will be stopped, there is simply no other thing, unless someone clicks the Red button, but in this case the war will be stopped for a complete exhaustion of humanity. Now the whole question is at what point Putin realizes that he was stuck in Ukraine. Two days ago, I had the feeling that he did not have this understanding, and now it is gradually growing. I’m afraid that Ukrainians will have to stand the hardships of war for another week, and even two, since Putin and Russian society have not yet come.

So far, Putin has the previous requirements that no independent freedom -loving people can accept: the requirement to put the Putin puppet and obey it. When he realizes that he was finally tie, he will move on to more real conversations. I hope that the war will be able to stop.

Vitaly Portnikov: Here, in Lviv, they always voted for some political forces, in Kharkov - for others. Since the 90s, the European Union, NATO had been in your region since the 90s. Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopol regions even voted against the preservation of the USSR in 1991 at the very referendum that Putin is currently referred to. Kharkov and other cities of the East of Ukraine, which have now been subjected to terrible bombing and destruction, are people who often voted for pro -Russian forces. We see how courageously they are now defending Ukraine. Is this a fracture in their minds, or did they just suddenly see falling missiles instead of the Russia with which they wanted to be friends?

Oksana Yurinets: This is the hatred that Putin has now sowed in the heads of people. In my house, people from Kharkov, from Kyiv. Ukraine is now one. What united us all gives the strength of our army. We need to stand to the end, until victory. When Kharkov or Kherson writes for help, this is a clear understanding that we can do everything together. Everyone should do something to win.

Vitaly Portnikov: I look at the composition of the anti-war committee, and it hurts me, because the only person who enters Russia who entered it is Volodya Kara-Murza, who has almost been sent to the next world several times. Other participants in the anti -war committee are already replaced from Russia. It turns out that in Russia it is very difficult to form a committee of people opposing the war. We grew up in the USSR, where the main refrain was "if only there was no war", where the anti -war movement even at the level of the Soviet leadership was almost the main propaganda slogan, and now we can only be given a march!

The war will be stopped, there is simply no other thing, unless someone does not press the red button

Mikhail Khodorkovsky: I hardly understand how this situation turned out in the heads of my fellow citizens. In the Soviet years, we worried about a variety of countries, always perceived as ours who defended their land, who were in bomb shelters. We have never perceived as our who attacked a foreign country tried to take someone else's land. And in my head it is simply automatically sewn: the aggressor is a fascist, this is not ours. How did this manage to turn this from a part of Russian society?!

But what happened this weekend inspired me. Now in Russia, for access to an anti -war demonstration, you can get a real time, moreover, they beat there. Today I listened to records from one Moscow police station, they just beat a woman there and said: Putin allowed us, we can do what we want. We see the notes of beatings on the streets. Nevertheless, people come out because they understand: going out into the streets now, they pull these monsters, "astronauts" who would be otherwise in Ukraine and kill people there. In fact, Putin plunged Russia into a civil war when families are split, and friends stop being friends.

Vitaly Portnikov: Can we say that in Ukraine there has come a certain new quality of national unity?

Oksana Yurinets: Yes, of course. In many cities, the support of mayors intensified, local self -government has undertaken the obligation to protect the population.

Vitaly Portnikov: Moreover, these are also different political forces.

Oksana Yurinets: Ukraine is now one more than ever - this is visible. Everyone in his place thinks how he can help. In my opinion, those who do not care simply do not. This war all divided into black and white. Ukrainians hate those who bomb their cities call them Russofashists. So bombing means not to understand what will happen tomorrow. If you want to occupy the territory, you will maintain infrastructure, and if you want to erase all this from the face of the earth, then this is hatred of everything human and even for the future.

Vitaly Portnikov: Mikhail Borisovich, current sanctions restrictions - is this really such a blow that will make the Russian leadership revise its policy?

Mikhail Khodorkovsky: The restriction of the capabilities of Russian banks to operate with currencies, of course, will hit the consumer market very much. Those reserves that were in stores, and now rising in price are very limited: I think they will be enough for literally one to two weeks. Then it is necessary to make purchases in conditions when the currency is not available, that is, citizens will see a completely crazy increase in prices. My friend from Moscow wrote to me: for the first time in many years, he saw a store without price tags: you choose a product, and then the seller will find out what price is now. Within a week or two, this will force a much large part of Russian society to think about what is happening.

Vitaly Portnikov: Nobody imposes sanctions on Ukraine, but all logistics chains are torn. There are already besieged cities where there are simply not enough products. They are not enough in Kyiv, Russian actions can bring the townspeople to hunger. Even in still peaceful cities, for example, in Lviv, going into shops, you also see that this is not the life that was before the war.

Ukraine is now one more

Oksana Yurinets: Yes, she is different. When we sent several cars to the Kyiv Regional Administration, after that the video came out how Vitaly Klitschko and Vladimir went through the epicenters: there are reserves for two months. All they need is accumulation for the next six months. Now in cities, even in Lviv there are many logistics centers, where we will accumulate help that comes from Poland and other countries, even from the USA. We understand how to provide this. If Kherson is actually cut off, we are looking for in Lviv those products that are needed in Odessa. Now we have made groups where we can exchange information and solve these issues not only for today, but also for the next month, for six months. Now, when the blitzkrieg failed, it will be a moment of stability, the strength of our country. The entire population is involved in help today. Our partners abroad understand what we need to hold, and how much they will help us, it will be so stronger. Now there is cohesion when you share a piece of bread with your neighbor, and this is also an association.

Vitaly Portnikov: What, in your opinion, is happening with the so -called Russian "elite"? How can they perceive the entire nightmare in which they found themselves?

Mikhail Khodorkovsky: With the exception of a few absolutely frostbitten types, no one in the Russian elite is happy from what is happening. Everyone lived a good life, albeit corruption, expected to accumulate for their old age. Now all these savings are in question: is it possible to use them. We know that decrees on the restriction of departure from Russia have been prepared, the projects of these decrees have already gone to the network. People strive to save what they can save. But at the same time, we understand that the nearest Putin circle made a choice for himself. None of those people who previously imposed on the liberals and friends of the West, in almost two weeks of the war, resigned, which means that they are members of the criminal government and their place on the bench of the defendants.

The authorities are very afraid that a wide bureaucracy will begin to sabotage, because no one really wants to continue this war. Therefore, Putin issued a decree called "about the fight against corruption", but it is clearly aimed at maintaining discipline within this pseudo-elite, so that in case of some fluctuations of people it was possible to be planted as if for corruption. The split is going on, but at the same time we have no reason to believe that the near Putin circle is ready for active action. They made their choice - they are war criminals.

Vitaly Portnikov: How do you imagine what will happen next?

Oksana Yurinets: It is difficult to take away from people what they no longer have. They have no democracy, freedom of speech, nothing, people do not leave for two years; Covid showed that you can live in the reserves that are. People who have taken everything from are nowhere to go. We can withstand aggression only by the internal force of Ukraine and the support of the whole world. It is very difficult, it will not be fast. But I would very much like it to be less victims, especially among children and women who are now dying in civilians of Ukraine.

This is not an attack, but defense, defending its territory. If Russian society could withstand if people thinking ... But, unfortunately, these are really accomplices, new Pharisees. We see countries that do not want to support Ukraine, and we understand that this is also a new type of Pharisees who talk about values, but do not live by them. They will all be accomplices in this war.

With the exception of a few frostbitten types, no one in the Russian elite is happy from what is happening

Mikhail Khodorkovsky: If Ukrainians manage to restrain the main cities, if the Ukrainian armed forces are not broken, then Putin will have huge supply problems, with the replacement of advanced parts. At this very moment, he will have a difficult choice. You can mobilize within Russia, but it is not known how it will end. Lukashenko tried and realized that mobilization in Belarus could end, even faster than expected, the end of his career. And Putin will have to choose between mobilization and real negotiations from quite weak positions.

Putin is now in a not quite adequate condition: he is not crazy, but obsessed. I do not believe, of course, that he will click the button of universal destruction, but to use tactical nuclear weapons, I think, is quite ready psychologically. I am not convinced that the military will be supported in this, realizing that this is the path in one direction even for them: after that they just have the end. But he will have such a temptation. It is necessary to wait for the moment when Putin's strength ends. In general, they end, and I do not see another option. But this is so many human lives! I just don't know how to perceive it ...

Vitaly Portnikov: Almost two weeks have passed, and the Ukrainian people are holding. The most important thing: we did not see the support of the occupation in any Ukrainian city or region. The myth of the "Russian world" fell upon, like the myth of two Ukraine, there is none of this, but there is Ukraine that wants to live and fight, wants just human existence. I really hope that at the cost of these terrible victims, the Ukrainian people will achieve human existence. He deserved him for sure.