“Putin believes in conspiracy theories”

The head of Bellingcat, Hristo Grozev, published photos of a certain code of honor for a Russian soldier. It contains, for example, the following line: “Russia and the Russian army are the last frontier,“ holding back ”from the onset of the satanic“ new world order ””. Can you please tell us where this design comes from and what it means?

— It was rather surprising for me that, it turns out, there are such texts, and if this is not a fake, not a fake, then this is a curious element of today's Russian ideological agenda.

In general, the conspiracy theory about the "new world order" originally appeared in the United States in the 1970s. On the one hand, it was promoted by radical Christian fundamentalists, Protestants (which is absurd in itself - Russian ideologists promote the ideas of American Protestants); in all the latest reforms and updates on the other hand, later they were not always religious, but right-wing opponents of the US federal government, who saw the devilish hand of Kabbalah, super-rich billionaires or politicians, conditional Soros .

In Russia in the 1990s and 2000s, the idea of ​​a “new world order” conspiracy theory acquired a vivid anti-Western, anti-American character. In a strange ornate way, an idea that was directed against the American government in America was transferred to Russian soil. In fact, the entire American stuffing has been shaken out of the idea of ​​a "new world order", all the anti-Westernism that exists now has been stuffed in and is now served to officers and soldiers who go to the front in Ukraine.

Is it clear where the legs grow from such ideas in Russia?

— It started with the collapse of the USSR and the institutionalization of anti-Western phenomena.

In the early 1990s , Alexander Dugin published the Elements magazine, and when the wars began in Yugoslavia, he had a lot of texts on how the Americans were destroying independent forces around the world and trying to gut Yugoslavia, our Serbian Orthodox brothers, and so on. And then he had topics about the “new world order”, which destroyed the foundation of the existence of the USSR, the Atlantic world won; the new world order is the Atlantic world, and it will soon destroy all of Eurasia.

Year after year, this idea bubbled up in the texts of Dugin and his associates. When anti-Westernism became a top phenomenon in our country, the “new world order” began to absorb everything that could be thought of as anti-Western – the LGBT agenda, feminism, GMO products, WTO accession. It all came together in one box - everything Western became a manifestation of the "new world order".

How did this come from Dugin to the speeches of Vladimir Putin?

- If you say, “from Dugin to our power”, then let's make a reservation that we, as scientists, cannot draw a straight line between his ideas and what is written in the training manuals. We can indirectly guess who influenced whom, who influenced whom, who read whose text, who was ordered what research work, and so on.

What do we know for sure? That in the 1990s, Dugin hung out at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, taught courses in geopolitics and, perhaps, talked a lot about the “new world order”. It can be assumed that what he said sunk into the brains of some officers and then they decided to use it.

How did modern Russia become a country whose president broadcasts conspiracy theories? How did we become a conspiracy country?

- Let's separate two things: how the president became a conspiracy theorist and how the country.

The whole country has not become a conspiracy theorist, although our society is indeed very prone to conspiracy theories. There are several reasons for this. One of them is the trauma of 1991, from which we are all now raking. The way the USSR collapsed caused a lot of questions and trauma. We are seeing one of them today in Ukraine. The trauma of the fact that a huge great influential country went bankrupt first economically and then politically, and even fell apart into 15 republics in six months, certainly shocked many.

At first, people lived in natural nostalgia, and then it was artificially swayed in the 2000s. Playful at first, then nostalgia became chauvinistic and rather foul-smelling. This trauma affected both Putin and society, and the worst thing is that people quite young and moderately cynical began to elevate the cult of power associated with the USSR and the empire into an absolute: “We will show you”, “We can repeat it.”

The result is a misrepresentation of Soviet history as a series of endless victories, coupled with an artificially accelerating anti-Western conspiracy theory that was initially a purely political tool used during the electoral cycles from 2004 to 2011. And when the regime entered a crisis in 2012, conspiracy theology slowly began to become more than just a tool, it gradually penetrated the consciousness of part of the ruling class as an explanatory tool for understanding reality.

The other part of this establishment, being wildly cynical, like Surkov, dispersed conspiracy theories for social mobilization - through the media, books and so on. As a result, it turned out that sincerely believing conspiracy theorists, along with hypocrites, gradually made our society wildly suspicious. For the past five years, he has been constantly pumped up with conspiracy theories: about biolaboratories, about the Internet, and about gay parades.

Ultimately, I'm sorry, but I have to say this, the ruling class and the elite, in particular Vladimir Putin, themselves believed in this conspiracy theory and began to include invented fears in the rational analysis of politics.

Do you think they sincerely believe in all this?

“Now I am convinced that Putin believes in conspiracy theories. If you had asked me a year ago, I would have said that he, like an ordinary person, discusses conspiracy theories with friends in the kitchen, but does not use it as a tool to shovel the political agenda in the country and in the world. I would definitely say this and give a dozen arguments.

Now I can't vouch that Putin doesn't believe in conspiracy theories and is convinced that he is driven by the fight against an international Western conspiracy against Russia. Look at his actions in Ukraine and his rhetoric: look how, after two days of the “special military operation”, the story of denazification faded into the background and the war of Russia against the West, which is being waged in Ukraine, appeared. about this , and if you speak openly and set the task - the victory of Russia over the West on the territory of Ukraine - then this is no longer a tool, but a political order. openly spoke Sergei Shoigu

Let's stop for a second and guess. If there is a war between the West and Russia, which, conditionally, 50% of the population believes in today, what will be considered a victory, what is the KPI? When will we announce that we have won? Lack of gay parades in Ukraine? Medvedchuk President of Ukraine?

It is impossible to calculate and evaluate. It's more of a fantasy. If fantasy determines political action, then I fear that these actions are not rational.

How did the idea of ​​Ukrainian neo-Nazis and denazification come about and be implemented in our public policy?

— We must first understand the terms "nationalism" and "Nazism."

The problem is that the Russian government, its elite, which apparently does not like Ukraine very much, does not understand what nationalism is, they live by Soviet clichés about nationalism, having little idea that nationalism is a rather natural political concept of citizenship in the 20th century. . Its radical manifestation was Nazism. But nationalism was inherent in almost all communities, from the 17th century in Europe to the 20th century, when the parade of sovereignties began.

Nationalism is fine. Ukraine is a nation state, a separate nation. But in general, this is a rather controversial concept: they argue about a nation, what it is, who is a nation, and who is not part of the nation. In the case of Ukraine, there are disputes whether it is a civil or ethnic nation - what determines national belonging to a nation, for example, do you share the culture, do you speak the language, do you read literature, how do you define yourself. Zelensky is a Ukrainian Jew, ethnically he is not a Ukrainian-Ukrainian, but he became the president of this country.

We have some scarecrows that the extreme right staged a Maidan, ardent Bandera nationalism will come and kill the Russians in Crimea. These scarecrows were at first the mobilizer of the campaign to take back the Crimea. When he was taken away, it turned out that the idea of ​​the Nazis in Ukraine continues to live and regularly appears in Vesti Nedeli. And then - bam - and it appears as a legitimization of open military aggression. And then they begin to tell that the whole country and its elite are Nazis.

This myth came from a simple misunderstanding of what nationalism is, and the impossibility, inability, unwillingness to see in Ukraine a subject of politics and another nation, in some ways similar to Russians or Russians, but in some ways different. Ukraine should develop according to its own laws and interests, and there is no need to release anyone - probably, they will figure it out themselves. All this scarecrow about the Nazis is exactly the same as if I were now being convinced that Russia is ruled by the Jewish Kabbalah.

The Nazis ruling Ukraine are a symbol of faith, which explains everything very easily and, most importantly, unties people's hands. There is an axiom in the studies of nationalism and far-right movements: the moment you label someone as "Nazi" in a public argument, you automatically delegitimize that person to represent themselves as a political movement. You say: “You are a Nazi, you are beyond political legitimacy, it is impossible to talk to you because your goals are terrifying, we will not talk to you, we will destroy and isolate you.”

How dangerous is a country headed by a person who believes in conspiracy theories?

The answer is short. Watch the news and see what comes out of it and what happens. In its radical manifestations, conspiracy theories are not tolerant. A conspiracy theorist who sees a conspiracy around ceases to rationally evaluate the world, he begins to commit irrational acts that greatly harm people. What we are seeing today is pure conspiracy-driven politics that is taking lives, unfortunately, in both nations.