Metaphysics of flight

Writer Viktor Shenderovich - about the collapse of Russian projects and hopes, about the new "Epistle" of today's emigration and understanding their tasks

How to get around the lock?

Ivan Tolstoy: Victor, you left Russia almost two months before it all started. As in an old joke - "You knew!".

Viktor Shenderovich: Now you can put the eyebrows significantly, but I did not know anything and at the end of December - early January was a unhappy person who was thrown out of his homeland, there was a feeling of drama of fate. And after a month and a half, you understand that you are just lucky. My wife once said that you can’t leave on time, you can either be late in advance. I did not leave the fact that I was offended, that I am a "foreign agent." It’s just that the lawyer explained to me what the 128th article is, part 5 is slander. I was ready for the next criminal case, it would be the fifth or sixth in my practice, I was ready for this unpleasant, annoying, bustling troubles. But it became clear that times have changed enough and they can simply “close” me before the trial.

Ivan Tolstoy: Where did this wonderful Russian verb “close” come from in this sense?

Victor Shenderovich: A long time ago. This is Fenya thieves, just like the word "lawlessness". All these words existed, but on the slang of those who understood - jailers and prisoners.

Ivan Tolstoy: The word from Russian literature is known - covered, cover.

The language is economical, it takes a short, accurate shape

Viktor Shenderovich: I heard him 10-15 years ago, not earlier, this is Putin's already. Interestingly, this professional prison-boat-dissident slang has entered the life of ordinary people. They made me a remark that I use the word "lawlessness": "Are you, you cannot explain intelligently?" I can, but this has come in this Russian language.

Ivan Tolstoy: The words are disgusting, but accurate.

Victor Shenderovich: Yes. How to say? "Doubtful legitimacy"? The language is economical, it takes a short, accurate shape. "Is this an arrest or detention? Let's find out." It’s long, boring, legally these are different things, and “close” - at the household level, what difference does it make to me, I was arrested or detained if they “closed” me and I can’t talk. In general, the smaller thing that threatened me then was a house arrest.

Ivan Tolstoy: Where do you live now and how are your days filled?

Viktor Shenderovich: With the filling of days, everything is very simple - in the morning I give an interview about Ukraine to everyone who asks. I have not been living anywhere else. With the suitcase with which on December 30 I found a message about the criminal case in Budapest, I go. I hope that in a week and a half, settle down in Poland near his daughter and grandchildren. I was lucky in this sense, I have relatives. The place is not a native, my house is in Moscow, but an ambush awaits me there. After some time, I will have a studio, an apartment, my place. So far - on hotels. During this time-from Budapest to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Vroclav, then to Tel Aviv, then here, ahead of Berlin, Ostrava, Krakow, Paris, then Warsaw.

I lived like that for a long time, I lived where I worked - lectures, performances. I just returned to Moscow and I, I must admit, was important. I am a terribly nostalgic person, I am a Muscovite, I have my own routes that soothe my shook nervous system. And the fact that this lads kicked me out of my city, of course, I feel as a personal insult.

Ivan Tolstoy: What is our man running from now? Do you divide the fugitives into any categories?

Viktor Shenderovich: Now they run from lawlessness. They run away from Putin for a long time, but this was in the character of different urgency, it happens that it was necessary for the therapist, but there is an ambulance. Someone left immediately in the zero, when he came, for some ideological reasons, a huge number of my friends left after a swamp business, after he was already completely illegitimately remained in power and broke his hands and hands, when the police officer did not start, but constant. Still added after the Crimea. And now they literally run from pogroms, from violence, the letter Z on the doors, police officers who check the phones that you are writing about Ukraine there.

I was then detained by my eyes, they did not like how I look

Theatrical critic Marina Davydova was interrogated with addiction on the border, then it turned out that she was followed. They stopped pretending, this happened in 2019, when there was a "police summer" in Moscow, when they simply took for an expression on their face. I was then detained for my eyes, they did not like how I looked. There is no control and is not expected, they stopped being shy. Now the nearest literary analogue is the parish of blacks after gray, like the Strugatsky. And in our memory there is nothing to compare with, there is no personal experience of life in a fascist country. Now just people are running from physical danger, like journalists Echo, rain that escaped from the country.

Ivan Tolstoy: These are people with a high profile. Is the profile low? Judging by what they write, 300 thousand or more left on February 24. Do today's conversations reach you? Not further than this morning I heard such a Moscow review: well, it is travelers, they throw us here, and we will have to survive here. The remaining people begin to consider almost the heroes, the defenders of Russia, is there such a thing in your ears?

Viktor Shenderovich: There was no one in my ears yet, but here, according to Descartes, we must agree on the meaning of words. Who is speaking? Putin, who rightly believe that these are traitors, because in the Putin category I, of course, a traitor and an agent, wish Russia all evil. If we are talking about people whom we consider normal, then I have not met such a watershed that we remain to fight, and you fled.

Ivan Tolstoy: This is a bewildered and lost voice, this is how I could determine it, a young man, up to 40 years old, never fell into a binding.

In the depths there was a hope that it would carry

Viktor Shenderovich: The thing is that most of people, according to the social characteristics of their own, are the same. A person lives in this eternal illusion of a Jewish joke that Saturday will be around, and I have Thursday. Everyone understood, and I also understood the head where he was going, and talked about it, but when I spoke, I hoped that I was condensing paints, I was a little scary, although the calculation and experience of historical said that everything was going to this. In the depths there was a hope that he would carry. It is one thing to know from the books, another thing, when you should now take children under the mouse, quit everything, lock up the apartment, as one person wrote to me, "leaving the light" - a sign how it would just come out, excommunicated. When I made a decision, I said that I would wait outside.

Ivan Tolstoy: There is a feeling that we are talking in the 1920 Constantinople.

Victor Shenderovich: Analogies are very strong. Of course, the size of the drama is a civil war, three million refugees are not comparable. Although the Berlin emigration is 600 thousand, European emigration is quite comparable. Thank God, this is still not bloody, Putin did not achieve, although how to see whether the Syrians should be considered, to count Donbass. In general achieved.

Ivan Tolstoy: Where is the man running? Not geographically, but metaphysical?

Viktor Shenderovich: Each person has his own life and an idea of what it is for. He is trying to live his life well. The historian, poet, scientist is also normal, there is Paris, Brussels, London, scientific centers. I’m not talking about Bohemia at all. And people who have tried to build civil society in Russia for many years, invested their lives-human rights activists, journalists, political scientists-tried to fill this as a stuffy room with some kind of oxygen ... Now the monstrously dramatic texts of Ani Narinskaya, Katya Schulman, people who were struggling not to be a demyse. Here I was teased with a dem, like, like, I don’t see anything but Putin at all, as one elite lady told me: "You can’t forgive Putin's salaries of television. What can I say to you?"

Would a concentration camp must be attached to bike paths?

But Anya Narinskaya, the most perfect example of a cultural citizer, a person who did what is possible - cultural projects, schools, exhibitions, educational programs - made a normal country from this territory, where there are many wonderful talented people. And this existed in parallel, this was drama and horror. They told me: look, bike paths! Look, what a Moscow! Indeed, I got prettier! I say: should a concentration camp be attached to bike paths? I know the cities where there are bike paths, but there is no concentration camp.

But a huge number of people still lived in this world of many worlds. Indeed, the restaurants are the best, the kitchen is the best, the city is luxurious, incredible exhibitions, poets, artists, theaters. But all this happens in a concentration camp. In the neighborhood in the same city, where Anya Narinskaya is made by the exhibition, they are raped by a mop. All this happens at the same time, and the deceptive feeling that it will somehow be corrected later. Well, they are trying with mop ... Well, Putin, Shoigu ... But this does not mean that you do not need to make a movie, make an exhibition, write a book. And from the state to take money for educational projects. I do not steal them, I do. And you will not reproach this person in the sense that everyone has their own civil temperament.

But at some point it turns out that it is incompatible, impossible. Until some point, it is possible, then everything. And the weakness of the system is determined by the weakness of the weakest link.

Ivan Tolstoy: A hundred years ago, the cultural segment of emigration was the task of preserving Russia, which, of course, began to deify, idealize in exile - Holy Russia, even if not a holy, a great country with a great culture. And our task, while we are in emigration, and we hope every Christmas will return to Easter ...

And what can now maintain new emigration?

Viktor Shenderovich: "We are not in exile, we are in the message."

Ivan Tolstoy: We must carry the fire of this small candle that is warming in us, we must preserve the Russian language, we must multiply, pass on the next generations and then, solemnly praying, with all sorts of bows and repentance to return back. The spiritual task was completely clear, so such a holy halo is really visible over the first wave, and it is pleasant and beautiful to study it after a hundred years. And what can now maintain new emigration?

Victor Shenderovich: Yes, in general, everything is the same, but in other terms. Those who say about Holy Rus', they just stayed, and this Rus' with the letter Z is realized. Since we are talking about decent people and people with ideas about our purpose, dignity. There are many such people among those who left, they do not live without their purpose. And now they are trying to make Echo of Moscow on the Internet, trying to come up with some new cultural projects. “There is no in vain beautiful,” as Yunna Moritz wrote, when she was a good poet, everything will come in handy, it should be done. Here Anya Narinskaya will still come up with something, without the purpose of my circle, not to live, and many hope to survive and come in handy. 30–40-year-olds will certainly be useful to Russia, live in anticipation that their talent, honesty, European view of things, dignity, energy will come in handy.

Putin monstrously accelerated this story in the right direction, but on blood and violence

This is all very similar to the illusion of the emigration that the Bolsheviks cannot hold out for a long time. There is a feeling that Putin sharply accelerated the movement of history, that everything became tougher, bloodiest, but this is in a reverse proportion over time, with a duration. Since February 24, I have a completely clear feeling that we are not talking about any year 2024, that he monstrously accelerated this story in the right direction, but on blood and violence. On close -up, there is a monstrous catastrophe in Ukraine, blood, the trouble of millions of people, and a general plan we are present during the last act of the collapse of the Russian Empire, which reached its peak under late Stalin, when the world was shared in half with America, then it began to collapse from incompatibility with life, because the world has gone towards the silicone valley, globalization, united Europe, and the empire does not survive, and the empire does not survive, and the empire does not survive, and the empire does not survive, and the empire does not survive, and the empire does not survive. He began to collapse from the social camp, then the union republics ... And since there were no conclusions, there is no federalism, there is no self -government ...

Today, Russia is less and less like the country, it is a territory, somehow tied to the Moscow principality, pieces of conquered territories, it lives according to a completely hopelessly obsolete, non-viable rules. In America, Alabama, New England, California and Texas can exist in one state, because they choose a government and live. And why in one state today Mari El, Arkhangelsk region, Ingushetia, Kalmykia, Tatarstan and the Far East? What idea, religion, idea of the past, about the future unites them? Does the passport unite? Kadyrov has a passport, Depardieu, Steven Sigal. Neither language, nor religion, nor the common myth of the past, nor the desirable future in common. What does everything hold on? On the guardsmen, on the motto of the NKVD. Tomorrow the food will end, they will switch to self -service, like Soviet cops. This is not my thought, this is our colleague Mikhail Shevelev remarkably formulated: "There is not a single factor that acted during the collapse of the USSR, which would not act now." The only difference was that then was Gorbachev, who was enough not to arrange constipation in the digestive process of history, just to give a leak how it flows, and here we are dealing with a completely stubborn fragment, here is the imperial head from the freezer.

Ivan Tolstoy: Sorry for the global question, I want to unscrew a little back. Not power, but society - at what point did society make this mistake, at what point did not move from the crazy old Soviet train to a new normal? Do you feel this point, this transplant station?

Viktor Shenderovich: A few were inconspicuous, but very important mistakes, although I am not a sociologist, not a historian and not a political scientist. It feels like the first mistake falls on 1992, because there was a feeling that ours had won. Well, Yeltsin is his own! Yes, uncouth, drinking, so baked, but his own!

Non -reforms are a curse of Russian history

Ivan Tolstoy: The failed trial of the CPSU?

Victor Shenderovich: Yes. The trial of the CPSU, which looked comical, and did not take place because in the second step, lustration was supposed to touch Yeltsin and all the others. Non -reforms. This is such a classic, but it is a curse of Russian history. Each time, the non-reforms end in another turn, then the Narodniks go to the people's volumes, explode the king, and everything goes through a new circle, then some heavy military defeat happens. After each severe military defeat, Russia says: "Your mother! Wait, let's do otherwise." And - again the non -reforms. "Revolution of the second secretaries" - as Mikhail Gorodetsky defined perestroika. As a result, of course, a lot has changed on this wave, but they were not done.

And if we talk about Putin’s time, then I know this mistake, I already watched it for adults and could analyze it. These are the "pure" gentlemen, the pure public - Chubais, Gref, Kudrin - not killers, educated people, they did not dare: the people are terrible, you can’t trust, can you trust the people like an election? Well, now the Nazis will come. Let us now do everything with a hardware way, put the neat, quiet, manageed by Volodya, who eats from us from the palm, which we fed, he is absolutely controlled. Vucenictov conveyed the intonation of Berezovsky when he asked him in 2000, after his appointment to the future “Savior of Russia”: “Are you sure Boris Abramovich, that he will not come out of obedience, that he will always be so quiet, controlled?” And Venediktov gave me the intonation of Berezovsky, who asked: "What, Vova? Vova eats from his palm, we feed him, then put him in his pocket, he lives in his pocket."

I am waiting for Chubais to say something, Kudrin. AU! Say something!

Chubais, Kudrin, all together they started this Vova. NTV destruction? Okay, this is all later, all these Western whims are freedom of speech, democratic freedoms, liberalism ... Listen, liberalism only in the sense of the economy, the economy should be liberal, it is holy. What about human rights? Well, NTV, Khodorkovsky ... The economy is growing, see how everything is under control, everything is fine, then we will make up! Wait for you with human rights! One of the best jokes of the wonderful Andrei Knyshev about how the boy married a rich old woman to take possession of her inheritance after her death, and when he died, all his toys went to her. This is absolutely about this story.

I am waiting for Chubais to say something, Kudrin. AU! Say something! Are you for this war, are you against her? Nothing to say. It is difficult for them to admit that they were "made", and they betrayed us. I don’t say anything about the people, because there was a good agreement with the people: you support me, I am your king, and you are a mortgage, Antalya. You better live? What else do you need? Everyone who is against, they want to destroy Russia. All who are against Putin are against Russia. You see that Russia began to live better. There is no conversation about the population, they kept their heads in this stuffy bag, people are like sausages, then they wear them, they were pumped up with this sausage, and that’s all. And then they dip a finger in this sausage and they say: this is the opinion of the people, look! 20 лет чудовищной эффективной пропаганды, она сильнее геббельсовской, я полагаю, там была простая идеология и прямая простая пропаганда, а здесь очень изощренная, интонационно разнообразная, очень талантливая.

И совершенно деградировавшая публика. Тех, кто в состоянии рефлексировать, это сословие растлили благосостоянием. И мы позволили себя растлить. Если в масштабе страны, то 10–20 тысяч людей, которые так или иначе выражали свою тревогу, это очень мало, это решило бы судьбу Люксембурга или Лихтенштейна, но не России. Когда в России закрывали НТВ, в Чехии тоже был конфликт на Чешском телевидении. В России 30 тысяч вышло на улицы, а в одной Праге – 100 тысяч. Поэтому в России нет свободного НТВ, а в Праге ушел в отставку генеральный директор Чешского телевидения. Так работает на числительных демократия, она так устроена.

Разговор же не о прорвах, а о "чистой" публике – об интеллектуалах, артистах, художниках, писателях. Я был демшизой всегда, мне крутили пальцами у виска. Я был в команде Новодворской. "Ну, Лера хорошая, но она же сумасшедшая". Нет ни одного прогноза Новодворской, который бы не сбылся! Она оказалась трезвым аналитиком. А все эти многоумные политологи, которые морщились: Новодворская, ну, это несерьезно. И любимое – "все не так просто, все сложнее". "А запад, что, хорошо? А там что творится! Везде все так". Стокгольмский синдром разнообразный, который позволял себя чувствовать хорошо. Ну, пытают шваброй, ну да, есть у нас отдельные недостатки.

Иван Толстой: Виктор, каких-то интересных новых для вас людей вы встретили за два месяца вашего изгнания?

Виктор Шендерович: Я увидел много своих старых друзей, которых я сто лет не видел. В Праге я буквально наткнулся, прямо неподалеку от дома Кафки, на группу "иностранных агентов", которые выдавлены были, уехали. Сейчас поеду в Берлин, увижу Олю Романову, поеду в Варшаву, увижу многих в Вильнюсе. Я встречаю людей, уехавших от Путина в разное время. Если есть что-то для меня приятное – это что все-таки очень много людей хороших. Сколько людей занимаются беженцами, сколько людей выходят на улицы, 10 тысяч ведь задержаны, это уже не семь человек! Я надеюсь, что Путина сметет просто матушка природа, если мозгами не взяли, то тем, что Пушкин называл "ход вещей".

Из приятного. Когда очередной был приезд Навального и последний из митингов, в котором я принимал участие в Москве, там Ходынку полиция устроила – заперла Страстной бульвар, и люди выходили из метро, выход не перекрыли, и люди попадали в месиво. И я иду такой вдавленный, а рядом идет девочка (я потом специально уточнил – 2001 года рождения, как раз того года, когда меня выгнали с телевидения), кидает взгляд на меня и говорит подружке: "Все-таки хорошо, что старшее поколение вышло нас поддержать". Я просто расплылся от счастья, потому что они вышли не потому, что вышел я.

Мы же все – Новодворская, Пономарев – друг друга знали в лицо. Редко появлялся человек, которого мы не знали в лицо, это были одни и те же городские сумасшедшие, нас было сто человек в 2006 году на антивоенном митинге, даже полиция не задерживала. А тут – новое. И это уже биологический протест, не политический. Они видят неправду, ложь, насилие, так не должно быть, нечестно пытаться человека убить, а потом посадить в тюрьму, это неправильно. Для меня Путин – политический противник, а для них это какой-то старый дед, который их "закрывает". Контракт-то был какой? Свобода, делайте что хотите, поездки, обучение. Я у власти, а вы – как хотите. Но вдруг выясняется, что не работает этот договор. И население сейчас чешет репу: погодите, мы же договаривались, что еда будет, что Анталия будет, что ипотека будет. Где ипотека? Ты – у власти, а где ипотека?! А вместо ипотеки у нас теперь духовность. Но так мы не договаривались! Договаривались закрывать глаза! Учителей призываем для фальсификаций, но главное, чтобы стабильность была.

И контракт с элитой он тоже не выполняет, контракт с элитой был такой же, только вместо ипотеки список Forbes. У вас все – бизнес, Европа, мир. Но я – у власти. It doesn't work. Поэтому сегодня у Путина никакой опоры нет, вместо ипотеки, Анталии и хорошей жизни – "русский мир" и буква Z. Наркотик – вещь хорошая, он прибавляет сил, но, как замечено, ненадолго. Потом ложишься плашмя и просишь, чтобы тебе воды кто-то принес. Сейчас эйфория, телевизором можно питаться какое-то время, но на длительной дистанции все похерено. Среди метафор, которые недавно пришли в голову, я увидел в интернете, как мангуст побеждает кобру. Реакция и точное чувство дистанции. Мангуст кружит вокруг кобры, кобра все время вынуждена быть в боевой стойке, а боевая стойка требует очень много сил. Она раз попробует – в пыль и назад, в стойку, второй, третий… На какой-то раз она просто ложится в пыль – у нее кончились силы. И мангуст ей аккуратно перекусывает голову. То, что делает Путин, вот эти броски кобры, какое-то время это страшно, только, в отличие от мангуста, Украина отскочить не может. Но все понятно, экономика уже лежит и будет лежать дальше.

Иван Толстой: Кобра в стойке напоминает Z.

Виктор Шендерович: Да, но она уже буквой "зю" становится. И конец империи мы наблюдаем, потому что обновиться не смогли по новым правилам, вернулись к старому проверенному, к этой имперской фигне, но это уже не работает, и просто взгляда на карту мира достаточно, чтобы понять, что никакой самодостаточной, сильной России быть не может, это может быть только Туркмения.

Допустим, Путин не уйдет. В историческом музее сейчас была выставка "Табакерка". Если с этой выставки экспонаты не дойдут до Рублево-Успенского шоссе, то Путин остается у власти, но эта власть – на территории распадающейся нищей территории, и это будет такой Туркменистан, мир, который нас будет держать на вытянутой руке, мы просто будем гнить и никому дела особенного не будет. Мы выражаем озабоченность и продолжаем жить дальше на Елисейских Полях, мало ли какие еще места есть печальные.

Вот Россия на втором веке настойчивого самоуничтожения досамоуничтожалась. Вариант только через дно – надо дойти до дна и это будет сделано силами Путина. Дальше развилка очень простая, ничего легитимного не будет: либо поражение и по немецкому пути мучительный, на десятилетия выход, но обязательно с осознанием, проскочить тему вины и ответственности не удастся, без этого не вырастет ничего. Это – мучительный, но счастливый вариант. А несчастливый – это если ничего не поменяется, это означает просто стагнацию.

Но надеюсь, что все-таки эта огромная запасная Россия, существующая снаружи, и я ее наблюдаю, потому что Путин выгнал меня, но он выгнал меня вместе с моей публикой, я приезжаю в Америку, в Европу, и там у меня публики теперь гораздо больше, чем в России, огромные залы. И это замечательные залы, это свободные, молодые, образованные, абсолютно европейски вписанные в мир люди. Очень успешная эмиграция русская, этот народ, попав на свободу, оказывается очень конкурентоспособным, для меня была открытием такая успешность. Я надеюсь, что это может пригодиться еще. Но тогда нужно рисковать и приезжать обратно, когда будет не просто с нуля, а с отрицательных величин – с вины, стыда, позора, унижения. Немецкий опыт миновать не удастся. Если мы не поймем, если несколько поколений детей не будут учить историю 20-го века как историю катастрофы, потому что 20-й век для России это история катастрофы, самоуничтожения, уничтожения всего, что было, – крестьянства, рабочего класса, интеллигенции, дворянства, культуры. Мы начинали с идеологических сумасшедших и убийц, с Робеспьера начинали условно, а кончили братвой. Наши бабушки и дедушки были идеологическими убийцами, моя бабушка – член ВКП(б) с 1918 года, которая занималась тем, что раскулачивала твоего дедушку.

Иван Толстой: Сейчас припомним…

Виктор Шендерович: Она дожила до седых лет, и я помню это обращенное к отцу: "Ай, Толя, что мы наделали!" До нее доходило. Но в 1918 году отобрать золото, чтобы накормить голодных, – святая простота. Без осознания этого века – с 1917-го по 2022-й – как чудовищного, ничего не будет. Если мы снова будем искать хорошее, оправдывать себя и говорить, что, в общем, ничего, – так просто хана. У Вивальди есть произведение с несколькими ложными финалами. Если еще одно проведение темы нам история даст, то тогда пригодятся эти замечательные люди, которых я вижу в большом количестве. Если нет, то, увы, дети еще разговаривают по-русски, это я наблюдаю в Америке, во Франции, в Англии, с внуками бабушки изо всех сил пытаются разговаривать, но понятно, что через какое-то время это все растворяется. И я вдруг с удивлением обнаружил, что я – русский патриот, что мне жалко цивилизацию очень, мне за державу действительно обидно, только не за империю. Потому что потрясающая цивилизация, которую просто гробят. Они высосали Россию как коктейль через трубочку. Отсутствие инстинкта самосохранения – это наше сильное место.