Bucha. A terrible symbol of the tragedy

Alexander Nedbaev and Valery Chaly - about what is happening in the territories from which Russian troops left

Vitaly Portnikov: Russian troops began an offensive operation in eastern Ukraine. Their goal, as president of the country Vladimir Zelensky states, is destroying the Donbass. In the same way as Mariupol, Russian troops are trying to erase other Ukrainian cities from the face of the earth. They continue to apply missile strikes almost throughout Ukraine, including its Western regions. On April 18, 7 residents of Lviv became victims of the Russian missile attack . To restore destroyed houses and infrastructure, hundreds of millions of dollars will be required, and the total losses of Ukraine from the war unleashed by Russia, according to the Prime Minister of the country Denis Shmygal, are already exceeding the trillion dollars.

In our studio, journalist and producer Alexander Nedbaev , in touch, Ukrainian diplomat and public figure, former Ukrainian ambassador to the United States Valery Chaly .

Correspondent: In the east of Ukraine, fierce battles began, which can radically change the course of the war unleashed by Russia. In Kiev, it is believed that the possibility of resuming the advance of the Russian troops into the Ukrainian capital will depend on the results of the battle for the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Many settlements from the Russian troops from the Russian troops in the north-west of Kyiv turned into ruins from the Russian troops. One of the largest destruction was experienced by the cities of Irpen, Gostoel, Bucha and the village of Borodyanka.

Many settlements freed from the Russian troops in the north-west of Kyiv turned into ruins

Meanwhile, Russian aviation and missile troops do not stop impacts almost throughout Ukraine. On April 17, nine residents of Kharkov died as a result of missile shelling . According to the mayor of the city, Igor Terekhov, even the Orthodox holiday - Palm Sunday - was no exception for bomb and missile strikes. During the war, over two thousand residential buildings, dozens of schools, hospitals and universities were damaged due to missile shelling in Kharkov. Most buildings are not subject to restoration. Almost to the ground, several cities of the neighboring Sumy region were destroyed. Hundreds of houses were damaged in the Russian troops liberated from the Russian troops at the end of March.

A symbol of Ukrainian resistance remains the capital of the Azovya - Mariupol. The historical center of the besieged city was seriously injured due to massive shelling and incessant military operations. 95% of buildings were destroyed. The persistent resistance of the defenders of Mariupol, according to British intelligence , creates problems for Russian troops in all operational areas.

Vitaly Portnikov: Alexander, you were in Bucha and other liberated cities of the Kiev region, which have already become symbols for the whole world. How do you evaluate what you saw there?

Alexander Nedbaev: This is horror, barbarism, a war crime, a mass crime against humanity. If international prosecutors will prove this, also an act of genocide. We observed this with hundreds of representatives of the press from around the world. The journalists recorded everything, talked with the locals, and everyone came to the same conclusion. Military journalists with the rich experience in covering wars around the world admitted that they had never seen such cruelty, barbarism and mass use of aggression against civilian citizens.

Vitaly Portnikov: Why are the estimates diverge so now? Someone already talks about genocide, someone believes that the word "genocide" cannot be used, we need to talk about war crimes, someone talks about the international trial, and someone-about the need to continue negotiations.

Valery Chaly: The conclusion that these are facts of genocide, everyone can make independently from these crimes and calls of those who politically directed the army to such atrocities. We see that the team of employees who committed these crimes received an assessment of the President of Russia, that is, these are coordinated actions. In this sense, the political assessment of "genocide" is absolutely acceptable. And some fears to use the word "genocide" are due to the fact that this is a legal term. There is the Oonov Convention on the crimes of the genocide, and in order to apply it, it is necessary to establish facts in the legal plan.

Vitaly Portnikov: Russian propaganda constantly says that it was strictly, there was no destruction of the civilian population, they simply laid out the corpses of people killed by the Ukrainian military.

This is horror, barbarism, a war crime, a mass crime against humanity

Alexander Nedbaev: When I hear these stories about fakes, he just approaches the throat. Imagine that you and your family are walking along the street of your beloved city in your beloved country, some city crazy one is coming to you and begins to tell you: this is all a fake. You will simply brush off him. But if the same person begins to attack you with a knife or automatic, rape your wife and kill a child, while muttering something about fakes, you will not spend time on a discussion with him, but you will protect your family. This is what we all have to do. When Russia tries to cover with these fairy tales about fakes what they themselves did, they simply draw media attention a little. We do not need to respond to this, you just need to continue to convey the truth about what happened to us.

Vitaly Portnikov: Valery, you followed the Sumy region of Ukraine. The destroyed cities remained there, but still there was no such mass destruction of the population as in the Kiev region.

Valery Chaly: I would not share, where there is more, where there is less. We still do not have access to Mariupol: I think there will be just terrifying figures of victims among the civilian population. It is important that this does not happen by chance: it is allowed, allowed and encouraged by Russian decisions.

This story now allows the United States to consider Russia as a state - a sponsor of terrorists. Now this issue is in the process of discussion. I will not be surprised if Russia is reckoned with a small list of terrorist countries, because these are actions in relation to the people of Ukraine, and Ukrainians, Russians, Jews equal from a legal point of view-all fell into this situation. Here, not only war crimes, but also crimes against humanity, if we talk about the facts of genocide against an entire people.

Yes, we see terrible cases in Bucha, Gostole, Irpen, but no less terrible things happen in other places throughout Ukraine. The longer the invaders are allowed to perform such actions, the more victims and facts, which, then, I hope, will form the basis of just court decisions.

Vitaly Portnikov: Foreign journalists were shocked by what they saw. These people were in wars. We know what a nightmare was happening in the Middle East, in Syria, there were also atrocities against the civilian population. Why is the Kyiv region so amazing them so much?

Alexander Nedbaev: Probably because no one could believe it to the end. Even we ourselves did not believe that an attack would occur and that it would be so brutal that after several days of the failed blitzkrieg they would go to terror, to hide behind civilians, torture them and massively destroy them, and in a Warvarian, scaring everyone else. I heard dozens of stories, they were told literally in every village. For example, six men were removed from the basement and just like in a roulette, one of them was killed. Then they said: we will come tomorrow. Tomorrow they did not come, came the day after tomorrow, killed one more - just so that the rest were in fear.

Bucha, Irpen - these were cities created for comfort and comfort

Vitaliy Portnikov: Valery, you were one of those of my interlocutors long before the beginning of this war, who, in principle, could describe her move when many seemed completely impossible missile blows to Kiev from Russia. You imagined that there may be such a mass destruction of the civilian population?

Valery Chaly: There are tens of thousands of killed, a huge number of the same Russians without arms and legs, coffins come to all points of Russia - and no reaction. I can explain the attitude of the Russian leadership when Kursk drowned, and the Moscow cruiser is not clear what happened, even if I drowned: well, that, iron is old ... I understood the attitude of a group of leaders, but did not allow that it would be so among the units, thinking population of St. Petersburg, Moscow, large cities. To be honest, this is still incomprehensible to me. I really hope that we will still see some reaction of Russia itself, different people, an assessment of the value of human life. After all, what we see in interceptions of conversations of relatives with those who are sent to this massacre to Ukraine are also horrified. I really hope that this is only part of the idea of what basic foundations in Russia are now, the attitude to human life is not only enemies, but also their own. I could not imagine this.

Vitaly Portnikov: Alexander, how do people who told you terrible things now feel? This is a terrible psychological trauma. They lived in landscaped, can be said, resort cities, and suddenly such a nightmare comes to them.

Alexander Nedbaev: Yes, Bucha, Irpen - these were cities created for comfort and comfort. All the people who survived these 28 days of a nightmare, before drinking water, take humanitarian help, first wanted to tell us their stories. For them, a conversation with a living person was already therapy. Through tears in their terrifying stories, the desire to live on, to rebuild their homes, was still visible.

Vitaly Portnikov: Valery, do you have the feeling that the Russian political leadership has headed for the depopulation of Ukraine? The troops destroy people, go missile shelling of cities. Already, mothers with children in the western regions of the country, when cities are also under missile blows, begin to think that they need to leave. It seems that the goal is that there is no population.

The official level is clearly said: if you can’t re -educate, physically destroy

Valery Chaly: Yes, this clearly follows even from official statements. We could not understand what "denazification" is. It turns out that this is all that forms Ukrainian identity - Ukrainian culture, religion, Ukrainian, and not the Russian church, the Ukrainian language: this all should be eradicated. Russian propaganda channels broadcast both the mood of the authorities and partly the mood of society: it can be a massive movement of citizens, as the Nazis did. Russia has already tested this in the Crimea and in the Donbass: first part of the indigenous population is exported and others are imported, special programs are created. Another way, as is happening now - to collect teachers, take them by forcibly, impose them on Russian methodology, Russian textbooks. And it is clearly said at the official level: if it is not possible to re -educate, physically destroy.

There are lists, but I thought that there was only some part of the current Ukrainian officials and military leaders. No, these are lists for tens of thousands of people who were planned to be destroyed simply during the conduct of a military operation, as they say. That is, it is a planned, coordinated and encouraged politician in the Kremlin. Blackmail and intimidation were part of the plan. The idea of destroying the infrastructure of Ukraine and depopulation or other methods of submission remained, we will continue to encounter this.

But most of all questions about the degree of responsibility of Russian society. The common opinion is that there is some kind of dictatorial regime, which now also controls the Russian establishment, generals, but, in my opinion, the problem is much deeper. This is really a society that has many social diseases. But many will have to share the responsibility. The further it continues, the more and more people in Russia will be responsible directly, by last name, for these crimes. Russian society for two generations will receive such a blow from which it will be very difficult to recover.

Vitaly Portnikov: Bucha became a symbol of all this nightmare, but there are a lot of places that do not appear in the press.

Alexander Nedbaev: There are dozens of them. I can’t name a village that would not have been cold. In the village of Berry, 320 people were sitting in the basement for 28 days, and they sat in the literal sense, because they could not lie, and the first time they were only sought, practically did not give food. The youngest was 8 months old, the oldest was 89 years old. The old people began to die simply from exhaustion, their bodies did not even allow them to endure, only a few days later allowed. In the third week, several women were allowed to go out and begin to cook soup for everyone else. They were only released twice a day for five minutes with short clicks in the toilet, and those who fled not too fast shot under their feet.

The old people began to die in the basement from exhaustion, their bodies did not even allow to endure

The whole village completely plundered there. One woman brought us to her apartment. Everything was taken there: a TV, a pressure cooker, all the meat from the refrigerator, the crib of her three -year -old daughter, her socks and worn panties. After that, they wrote on the refrigerator: "Sorry, we did not want. This is all a fucking policy."

Vitaly Portnikov: This is to the question of a serious disease of society. There is a moment of moral choice, and in specific people it is practically absent.

Valery Chaly: There is still a very simple reason - they live poorly. You will drive from Moscow or St. Petersburg 30-40 kilometers-there is poverty (I myself saw all this). There is no such contrast in Ukraine. The second point: they did not have some things, they simply saw them for the first time. This suggests that Russia is very divided in social terms. The propaganda machine allows you to keep in a slave position most of the population. Morality there will not take from nowhere. Children taught Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Pushkin, but this did not postpone them, or, conversely, they learned something from this culture. As a result, we see empty souls.

This is a terrifying situation. We are talking about mass things. I am even more amazed at the video when people drive in the car, raise their hands, they say that they are civilians, and they are immediately shot in the face, shoot the father in front of their son. How to explain this? I think this is a slave society. Many of the Nazism of the last century are clearly traced here. If we do not call it our names now, we will not understand how to overcome this huge problem for the world in the future.

People want retaliation and victory. They will never forgive this and not forget

Yes, it is difficult to restore the territorial integrity of Ukraine, sovereignty, but here are understandable guidelines. But what to do with such a huge territory, with this kind of immoral positions? There are many things that we find in the history of feudalism, and even the ancient world, in terms of human attitude towards man. How did they get to this? I have no answer.

Vitaly Portnikov: Do people in these cities and villages want retaliation or just want a normal life to return?

Alexander Nedbaev: They want retaliation and victory. Of course, all people want the world to return, but they absolutely do not agree to forgive. They will never forgive this or forget it, like all of us.