"I, by definition, is a foreign agent, because I fulfill the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven." As a St. Petersburg priest who has left the Russian Orthodox Church helps Ukrainian refugees

In Russia there are tens of thousands of refugees from Ukraine. Some of them are trying to leave from there to the countries of Europe or Transcaucasia, the other remains at temporary accommodation points. Both those and others are helped by Russian volunteers. One of the informal leaders of this movement in St. Petersburg is the bishop of the Apostolic Orthodox Church, a member of the human rights Council of St. Petersburg Grigory Mikhnov-Vyatenko. Farida Kurbangaleeva talked with him why he was not afraid of the “comrades of the major”, for which the Ukrainians were taken to the Far East and why the Russian Orthodox Church could not say “no war”.

- How did you start dealing with the problem of Ukrainian refugees?

- In the very first days of the war, we thought about citizens of Ukraine who have already lived in Russia. According to various estimates, there were from 800 thousand to 2 million people. We suggested that they may have problems. I proposed at a human rights advice, and all my colleagues supported me, to create a hot line for Ukrainian citizens. And immediately a large number of requests went from people who tried to leave the territory of Russia. In fact, if people were in order, in this situation there was nothing complicated. But while we were versed in it, refugees from Mariupol pulled up. Someone wanted to leave Russia, someone wanted to stay. But everyone had human rights requests.

- You generally assumed that Ukrainians will appear who would be taken to Russia?

- Honestly, no. Although this did not cause surprise to me. I don’t want to give any assessments now, for this you have to be inside these events. But if you believe the words of their direct participants, there was no possibility of organized evacuation anywhere except towards Russia. At least, they announced to these people. At the same time, there is still some inaccuracy in the wording when they say that these people were delivered to Russia by force.

- When I talked with refugees from Mariupol, they said that they wanted to leave in the territory controlled by Ukraine, but it was tantamount to death - the humanitarian corridor fired at all the time.

- I do not question their words. I accept them as a fact. In the direction of Russia, the humanitarian corridor was, and, apparently, quite safe. At the same time, I know that some people also went towards Ukraine, but mainly at their own peril and risk and mainly those who had vehicles. There was no way out on him, as far as I know.

- But is this not violence from Russia?

- When we are talking about the violence, then shots with shepherds and blows of butt in the back stand in front of our eyes. Of course, this was not. But, as I understand it, people were not offered to people. So, there was an element of non -alternativeness. Why it happened, I'm not ready to reason personally. I myself am not a witness and did not see documents on this subject, I heard only stories.

But it would be much worse if people who found themselves in Russian were legally underwriting. If the authorities prevented their free movement. According to my observations, they do not interfere. Those who do not want to go to the proposed points of temporary accommodation can safely go where they want.

Another thing is that these people do not have money, they have problems with communications, problems with documents. And in this sense, the Russian state does not provide them with anything. Without the help of volunteers who help to draw up documents, take a train, buy clothes and medicines, including prescription, because there are people with chronic diseases, Ukrainian citizens cannot cope.

- And why do the Russian authorities offer Ukrainian refugees to evacuate if they cannot provide them? Is there a Pharisee?

- I think that there is an element of pharisa. But, again, now is not the time of assessments, now is the time of action. For example, you need to arrange refugees for the night. Here we are saying and in parallel I correspond in the chat, because another family is waiting for help.

It is important to understand the main thing: what happened on February 24 is a crime. Crime against humanity, unleashing aggressive war. Dot. Everything else is a consequence of this crime.

Who is the hero and who is the bastard - we will figure it out a little later. And now everyone in his place should do what is in his power. The journalist must write, the human rights activist must protect, an indifferent person must make moral decisions. Provide an apartment, car or your time. Do not help the refugee - even from the point of view of a book called the Bible - a very serious sin. As they say, "for you yourself were a wanderer in a foreign country."

- How many Ukrainian refugees are in Russia now? And how many camps?

- There is no official statistics. There are numbers of different departments, and they radically contradict each other. At the same time, the Russian authorities call some fantastic figures that cannot be believed in-860 thousand people. I do not understand where they came from, because in Mariupol there are much fewer people. From the Donetsk region? But from there it seems that mass evacuation was not carried out.

I think that these numbers when passing along a chain of different departments are overgrown with zeros and units. I think that about 100 thousand people came from the war zone to Russia. Several thousand of them have already left, some number is going to do this.

We know about about 500 temporary camps. It sounds scary, but you need to understand that there are points where literally 50–70 people are located. Some small boarding houses. There are only a few such large ones as under Peter, where 550 people are accommodated. For example, in Vladivostok-there are 300 people there.

“Why are refugees taken so far?” Do you have an explanation?

- Honestly, I do not see much evil intent in this. Apparently, somewhere in the presidential administration there was a request to all subjects of the Federation: to prepare places for receiving refugees. And each region reported how many people he can accept. They still try to place these people in more or less normal conditions. These are not tent camps or barracks in the taiga.

In addition, the task was formulated in such a way as to provide those who wish to work and documents. It is clear that not a single area in the European part of Russia is ready to accept 100 thousand people and give them a job where they will take it? Therefore, they began to smear with a thin layer. And taking into account the size of the country, it turned out what happened. Say thank you that the extreme point is not Kamchatka, but Vladivostok

- In social networks they say that this is another deportation.

- I do not want to rush in such words. And no words after the word "special operation" are already working, ended. The safety of people is ensured, tickets from Vladivostok to Moscow, to St. Petersburg or Tokyo are no more expensive than money. Of course, all this is excessive. But what can be solved by money is not a problem.

Correspondence fragments with Ukrainian refugees

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- Can people who have no documents at all? For example, everything burned down during a bombing.

“Refugees can receive a temporary document called“ Conclusion on the establishment of the personality of a foreign citizen or stateless person ”. Very valuable invention. It is issued in the police - there is a photograph, print and three signatures. With this document, a refugee can leave Russia.

To arrange this paper, a person must confirm his identity in any way. He can even provide an invoice for electricity. Or witnesses. For example, a family leaves: five have documents, but the sixth does not. Cases when the whole family has no documents is single. In addition, in Ukraine there is an analogue of Russian public services, therefore, in 99% of cases, it will not be confirmed by the personality of a person of labor.

This document appeared several years ago. As far as I understand, the initiator of its introduction was [human rights activist] Svetlana Gannushkin and her [committee] “Civil assistance”. Because in Russia there were a large number of labor migrants, and cases arose different. Someone could lose documents. At the same time, a person, for example, worked in Tyumen, and the consulate of his country was in Yekaterinburg.

It is clear that the nearest Ukrainian consulate is outside the Russian Federation. Fortunately, the Russian border service understands this, so there are no special problems with the exit.

There are more complex conflicts. For example, there are infants who were born in the same Mariupol hospital and did not have time to get any documents. I met a couple here: dad and mom have legal marriage, plastic biometric cards, and the child from documents has only a tag from a handle or leg.

- Did you baptize refugee children?

- I was asked to baptize two children, but at that moment it was not ready [the room]. Then I asked to prepare the room, then it was deposited. A week later, I think, we’ll go. God will give, baptize.

- Who is more - who want to leave or stay?

- The vast majority, and among them there are people absolutely pro -Russian, say that their greatest desire is to get home. You ask: "But everything is broken there?" They answer: "Nothing, we will rebuild." As they imagine the design from a political point of view - we take out the brackets, this is not about that. The main thing is the desire of people to return. And they will do it as soon as possible.

Therefore, by the way, the vast majority of refugees do not take a simplified form of Russian citizenship that they are offered. They take either a temporary residence permit or a residence permit. Even those who do not want to leave for Europe and say “we will stay here for now,” still consider their final task a return home.

- How ethical in such a situation does the proposal of Russian citizenship look like?

-If you take out the brackets on February 24, this is some kind of action within the concept that the Russian authorities proclaim.

“But we cannot take out the brackets on February 24?”

- Therefore, this is a disgrace. But inside this disgrace, things can be completely lower than the skirting board, and there may be things that, from a humanitarian point of view, make it easier for a person to exist at a particular moment.

- It seems to me that it is like a situation when a person is tortured, and in breaks he is offered cakes.

- If at the same time they say to him: “You will eat cakes and we will let you go” is a slightly more complicated scheme. Purely practically: some people ordered the beginning of artillery shelling, others provided a humanitarian corridor, others on behalf of the Federal Migration Service offer simplified receipt of citizenship. All together is a state car. And individually, these are different people who, by the way, also have different assessments of what is happening.

All this is a very big trouble that came to our house. But now, I repeat, not the time of assessments, now is the time of action.

If you are asking for panties with a T -shirt and a toothbrush, do not ask who you voted in the previous elections for. We must take and do.

- If martial law is introduced in Russia, the situation of refugees will become more vulnerable?

- Such a turn of events will affect all citizens. Another thing is that I have a rather low assessments of the quality of the administrative will of our state. Something is usually declared very loudly, and steam goes into a whistle.

In general, I strongly doubt that the authorities will introduce martial law. Most likely, again, they will cost hybrid measures, so as not to call a spade in their own words. Because the level of support for this whole story is quite low. In 2014, all cars were hung with St. George ribbons and everyone shouted joyfully: “Our Crimea!” And now we see the letter Z only on the cars of the Russian Guard.

- But what about the polls?

- In an authoritarian country that smoothly strives for totalitarianism, the price of such polls is very low. People perfectly understand what answers expect from them. By the way, the last hundred of Levada (Levada-Center "was included in the register of foreign agents.- Republic ) suggests that in a month the support of the war has decreased by 10%. This is a fairly serious fall, despite the fact that hysteria is pumped out.

Yesterday we spent a family from Astrakhan abroad. They got to Peter by train and did not hide from others who they were. They did not hide that they were leaving the limits of the God -addressed state. So they inflicted food, and they gave money, and toys. This is a very important indicator. People from all sides tried to smooth the guilt in front of them.

- Many volunteers also say that they do not go to rallies, but help Ukrainians because they feel guilty.

- Now is not the time when, with the help of a rally, you can change the opinion of the authorities. Now there is a lively problem - these are the people who are here. And a lot of problems will begin to get out, because the war does not make anyone well.

I have in my hands the appeal from 200 families of soldiers, which, as you guess, ended up in this war, having no desire or legal grounds. And now the command does not give them papers that they were participants in the hostilities.

One of them was injured, someone needs prolonged rehabilitation and treatment.

This is called "broken fate." The man went to the army to serve the Motherland and returned without legs. And they say to him: "But actually, a guy, you are nobody, and we have not sent you there." I'm not talking about those who returned to 200 with a load. War does not bring any benefits to anyone except idiots at the very top.

- If you return to statistics, then the Ukrainian authorities say that about 200 thousand children were taken to Russia. It turns out that these numbers also do not fight with yours?

- Unfortunately, the situation is so monstrous that I am not sure that there is at least one department that can responsibly name the exact numbers about refugees. Imagine: a combat zone. Management in each individual site belongs to the operational command that is located there. From there, people enter a variety of preliminary camps - these are the Rostov, Belgorod regions and so on. And from there they are sent further.

How well is the accounting there? How systemic, accurate? Or crossed the border and that's it? If I understand correctly, theoretically more or less accurate data should have a Russian border service. It should also be borne in mind that among the refugees there are people who managed to get the passports of the DPR-LNR, there are people who managed to obtain Russian citizenship. Someone generally has citizenship of a third country. My data is spinning around the numbers that I named. Perhaps she is already more. But in any case, these are tens of thousands of people.

- And what happens in Russia with Ukrainian children who were left without parents?

- This is the most important question that we are trying to deal with. Fortunately, so far we have not found documentary confirmation. We know that a few days before the start of the war, an orphanage from the DPR was evacuated. All other children from Ukraine are in Russia, if not with parents, then with legal representatives - these are grandparents, and so on. So we read a lot of stories about round orphans, but they have not yet met.

- Is there an understanding of how you will act if such children appear?

- We theoretically understand. In the interests of such a child, a lawyer will work by agreement with his legal representatives. This is a difficult job, because the Ukrainian side will need. I think we somehow decide.

- You now communicate a lot with children from Ukraine. They say that the children's psyche is plastic, but for sure the war is imposing an irreparable trace on it?

- Of course, it imposes. We can go into the jungle of philosophy and talk about when and how to talk with the child about death. What to do if a hamster died. And what if a loved one died in front of the child? Today we escorted our family to Estonia. There they killed the father and grandfather. Grandfather died in the arms of his grandson. The boy was barely 18 years old. And this was seen by his two younger sisters. There are no words and tears. Monstrous.

- How do you find the right words for them?

- I do not try to find words. I try to behave in such a way that, perhaps, they themselves have a desire to speak. Of course, this is a difficult psychological situation - post -traumatic syndrome. Very often, people need to speak out with a person who causes trust. But I am not unique in this. All our volunteers are indifferent, empathy. And they all tell their stories about refugees.

The other day, a large family left very difficult. The eldest son is 17 years old - oncology in severe form. We evacuated oncologists together with the Ukrainian League, because an operation in Switzerland was appointed the boy. Therefore, this family was evacuated right there, through Warsaw. One of the younger children - a 3 -year -old boy - a fragmentation wound. That is, out of four children, two in serious condition.

Naturally, this family talked with the curators who led them. Our volunteer in the chat asks a completely standard question: "Are there any pets, do you need carrying?" And the mother of these children replies: "No, nothing needs, the parrot burned with our apartment." With such details, the degree of horror that occurs there.

Yes, the children's psyche is plastic, but we know that the memory of Auschwitz was preserved among young prisoners for life. Многие из тех, кто выжил, прожили сознательную, полноценную жизнь. Но это не значит, что они [украинские дети] все забудут. Очень много будет зависеть от окружения и обстановки, в которой они будут находиться. Это тяжелейшая работа на много лет вперед.

Семья из Мариуполя, которую удалось переправить из России в Швейцарию

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— Не могу не спросить у вас, как у православного священника: как вы относитесь к позиции РПЦ относительно войны в Украине?

— Плохо отношусь. Эта позиция стала для меня основанием для того, чтобы выйти из числа клириков РПЦ. Потому что я вижу эту позицию с 2014 года. Давайте отвлечемся от всякой, извините, богословской трескотни и просто скажем: РПЦ — это общественная организация, члены которой находятся в двух государствах. Естественно, эта общественная организация имеет все рычаги для того, чтобы стать участником миротворческого, объединительного процесса. Вместо этого организация априорно встает на одну сторону: тут правы, а тут не правы.

Это не диалог. Это клерикальная привычка говорить с кафедры, с позиции «я учу, а вы внимаете». Это способствовало только одному — падению авторитета РПЦ среди верующих как в России, так и в Украине и во всем мире. Почитайте высказывание папы Франциска по поводу его диалога с Кириллом. «Алтарный мальчик Путина».

— А почему патриарх Кирилл поощряет ведение этой войны?

— Кирилл — человек системный. У него есть задание, и он его отрабатывает. А задание такое: поддержать линию партии. Он — часть российского руководства. Недавно мне сказал мой товарищ: есть Роснефть, а есть Росцерковь — государственная корпорация, которая отвечает за духовность. Росдуховность — наверное, так правильно ее называть.

Ребята, ну так нельзя. В любом случае, это руководитель мощной организации. У нее десятки тысячи региональных отделений, назовем это так. Десятки тысяч рядовых священнослужителей. Я уже не говорю про миллионы верующих в Украине. А Украина значительно более религиозная страна, значительно более «соблюдающая» страна, чем Россия. То есть эти люди ходят в церковь не по обязанности. В Украине сейчас многие говорят: «Да, мы — прихожане УПЦ Московского патриархата. Но, конечно, она должна перестать общаться с Кириллом. Конечно, Кирилл больше не должен быть нашим лидером».

Я уже не говорю про гигантское количество людей в России, которые говорят: все, мы в эту церковь ни ногой. Не надо осуждать Путина, совершенно не обязательно предавать его анафеме. Но говорить внятные слова, которые объясняют, в чем разница между убийством и миротворчеством — это можно и нужно.

— Значит ли это, что православие в целом теряет репутацию?

— Репутация религии вообще будет очень сильно девальвирована этой войной. Потому что религиозные лидеры, к сожалению, не обладают достаточным ресурсом для миротворческой миссии. Да, я знаю некоторое количество священнослужителей в Украине, это не обязательно православные, многие из них протестанты, которые работают в зоне боевых действий, занимаются эвакуацией мирных жителей, помощью раненым. Это дело Церкви.

Но политические решения Церковь сейчас принимать не может. Сказать такое слово, как в Средние века, когда по слову папы прекращались и начинались войны, не может. Нет такого ресурса. И Сергия Радонежского нет в России, который может в Нижнем Новгороде церкви запечатать.

Можно, конечно, провести перформанс — я могу прийти на Красную площадь и запечатать врата храма Василия Блаженного. Об этом напишут, но через пять минут забудут, потому что никакого влияния на умы нет. Общество давно дехристианизировано.

— Но ведь папа римский высказывается против войны?

— Я очень симпатизирую папе Франциску. Но католическая церковь — это не только папа. Есть еще огромное количество людей, которые должны были работать еще активнее. Сейчас, к сожалению, слово папы не слышат те, к кому оно в первую очередь адресовано. Путин не слышит, Кирилл слова папы ему не пересказывает. Мы встали на тупиковую позицию. Это беда церковной дипломатии, церковного влияния.

— Вы ведь сотрудничаете с католическим фондом «Каритас»?

— У меня вообще нет никаких предубеждений по поводу кого бы то ни было. Особенно, если речь идет о гуманитарном сотрудничестве. Люди могут быть хоть четырежды атеистами или восемнадцать раз католиками, я говорю: «Господи, какое счастье, что есть те, кому не все равно». Мы вообще готовы работать абсолютно во всеми — с полицией, погранслужбой, Министерством обороны, ФСБ. Если от этого может быть реальная польза людям — давайте сотрудничать, давайте искать выход. Если люди сидят и разговаривают — это всегда лучше, чем когда они смотрят друг на друга через прорезь прицела.

— Сейчас некоторые волонтеры, помогающие беженцам, стали объектами травли *. Вы не боитесь ее?

— Травли я не боюсь совершенно точно. Я не испытывал ее и в 2014 году, когда поддержал Украину. Хотя мне задавали очень много недоуменных вопросов. Думаю, что события, которые происходят сейчас с волонтерами, связаны с тем, что кто-то из начальников региональных спецслужб не полностью соответствует занимаемой должности. Превратно понимает цели и задачи государства.

Я разговаривал с большими начальниками в Петербурге и получил полное согласие с тем, что всех, кто хочет выехать из страны, нужно как можно быстрее отсюда отправить. Это в государственных интересах. Потому что мы получаем неконтролируемое количество социально необеспеченных людей, у которых сохраняются человеческие связи с Украиной и могут быть претензии к российскому государству.

Сегодня они говорят, что хотят жить здесь, а завтра? А мы уверены? Может быть, давайте быстрее их выпустим? И если у государства нет материального ресурса для того, чтобы их тут держать и отсюда отправить, то слава Богу, есть волонтеры, которые готовы помочь. Чтобы эти люди тихо и спокойно уехали туда, куда они хотят. [Чиновники] задумались. Говорят: «Да, это государственный подход». Я отвечаю: «Ну вот видите».

— А правда, что волонтеры не объединяются в одно большое движение и действуют как отдельные партизанские отряды намеренно, чтобы им не навредили власти?

— У нас нет времени на то, чтобы объединяться в одно большое движение. Мы начнем тратить время на организационную работу, на выборы председателя. На какую-то чушь. Сейчас стоит простая задача: вышел человек на вокзале, пишет: «У меня три сумки и четыре ребенка». Ему надо помочь простыми усилиями.

Можно даже просто встать на Московском вокзале в Питере с табличкой: «Беженцы. Ивангород. Вожу». All. Если ты вызываешь элементарное доверие, к тебе будут подходить.

Я очень рад (если сегодня вообще можно так сказать), когда вижу многотысячные чаты волонтеров. С этим связаны все мои надежды.

Мне говорят: ты не боишься, что там половина — товарищи майоры? Если это так, то я вдвойне счастлив, что они все это видят и читают. Человек с остатками психики не может не делать выводы. Очень хорошо нажимать на кнопочку и издалека уничтожать абстрактного противника. Послушал Соловьева и в бой — за денацификацию. А когда ты сталкиваешься с людьми, которые тут совсем ни при чем — это и погибший дедушка, и папа, который работал инженером на Азовстали — это совсем другая картина.

— Вы не боитесь стать иноагентом?

— Я по определению являюсь иноагентом, потому что исполняю законы Царства Небесного. На него не распространяется юрисдикция Российской Федерации. Это не значит, что я буду целенаправленно и злонамеренно нарушать законы государства. Но есть первичное и вторичное. Первичное — это не убий, не укради и далее по списку. Поэтому бояться — стыдно.

Я не считаю, что своей деятельностью нарушаю закон. Я достаточно скрупулезно ему следую. В законе не прописано, что слова «нет войне» — это преступление.

И я не считаю, что эти слова дискредитируют вооруженные силы. Я считаю, что они являются словами любого здравомыслящего человека. Война — это то, чего не должно быть у человечества в XXI веке.

— Сейчас вы воздерживаетесь от оценок происходящего. Когда мы сможем их вынести?

— Во-первых, должны закончиться боевые действия. Во-вторых, все беженцы должны обрести дом. Понятно, что все дома окажутся еще очень не скоро. А с учетом таких опасностей, как использование ядерного оружия — вся эта история может затянуться очень надолго.

Но день такой придет. Когда-нибудь будет подписан мирный договор или акт о капитуляции. Перестанут говорить пушки. Начнут говорить не только аналитики, но и историки. Рано или поздно скажут свое слово судьи и прокуроры. Это очень печальное зрелище. Конечно, мне хотелось бы, чтобы Россия избежала такого потрясения. Но этого не получилось.

* Ссылка ведет на интернет-сайт, внесенный в реестр СМИ — иностранных агентов.