"There is no objectivity in the position of any normal journalist"

Interview with Natalia Sindeeva - about the restart of "rain", emigration, guilt, prohibitions and tango

The founder of the rain, Natalya Sindeeva, is going to restart the channel in Europe. She told the chief editor of the “cold” Taisiya Bekbulatova about how she plans to rebuild the TV channel and look for a language for conversation with the Russians, as well as about guilt, responsibility, censorship and the future, which will certainly come.

This is an abbreviated text version of the interview. About how the editors of the rain gathered and left, who finances the channel, whether Pavel Lobkov will return, why Dmitry Medvedev posts on social networks what he is postponing, and about much more-watch in the video interview of Natalia Sindeeva on the Utube channel of Kholoda.

On the closure and restart of "rain"

"Rain" announced the suspension of broadcasting on March 3. How do you think it was possible to avoid this?

- It seems to me, no, impossible. The next day, a law on fakes was adopted, and if in online media you can give yourself some kind of delay, then we worked alive. And they understood that after three minutes of ether we would break this law. And we simply had no right to put people on the air.

When the war began, I collected the team, said that we should work even more, even more powerful - as much as we can. Then, when we were blocked - it seems that it was March 1 - we still decided that we were continuing to work. And for the third day we made this decision [on suspension]. I cried, we all cried together. Volodya [Romensky, a journalist of Rain] said: "We do not give up, we are simply retreating so as not to die."

Tell us about the restart.

- We will have several stages of launch. We will start on our YouTube channel, and I think it will still be a large, serious launch in the fall, because we want to build a studio, scenery. Everyone is tired in streams to sit and work on the knee. Therefore, I think there will be several starts, and I hope that our audience will understand us and forgive us that we will not be 24/7 from the first day. The company will be one - European, but there will be branches in different countries.

About children and husband

Where did you set up, where is your family?

- So far, nowhere. Four months of traveling with suitcases. I plan a year to live in Amsterdam - there will also be a hub ["rain"]. If I lived in Riga or Georgia, I would definitely not learn English. And so the challenge: Come on, life told you that you should do it.

And children, animals?

- I really want to transport the dog. The son entered the University of Amsterdam, so we will be together. The daughter will remain to study in Austria, as she studied.

Emigration is emotionally difficult, but you also divorced shortly before. Who supports you now, due to what you manage to receive some kind of emotional resource?

- I have Sasha and I ( Alexander Vinokurov - an entrepreneur, co -owner of the Chaika clinic network, was the investor of Rain and other media. - approx. Cold ) excellent relations. We divorced, I have my own life, he has my own. But we are very close, we support each other, so there is no such problem.

And then, I still do not think that I am in exile, because so far I am driving somewhere on my suitcases. As soon as I move, I will have an apartment, I will put my things and begin to live calmly. And at this moment, I think, it will cover me ... These four months covered me just from all kinds of household inconvenience: at first your cards do not work, then phones, applications. But against the background of what is happening in Ukraine, it is garbage.

About dialogue and reconciliation

Now, it seems to me, one of the main problems of emigrating media is how to reach the Russian audience. Do you think it will be possible?

- Certainly. We must definitely try very hard. It is important to find the right intonation. We talk a lot about this and think. This is a big difference: you are talking from Russia or not. There is a danger of losing some part of the Russian audience only because we left. The intonation of empathy, compassion, very humanistic, anti -war must unite us all.

Do you have no disappointment in Russian societies E?

- An experiment has been delivered over Russian society - cruel, terrible. For many years, a purposefully, through different channels, in different language, with different argumentation, society was divided into their own and strangers, prepared for this war, explaining that the whole world was united against Russia, that NATO wanted to fight with us. You probably already watched Andrei Loshak’s film ( “Gap break” - a study of how Russian society has split to war. - Approx. “Cold” ). I know such people, they really are all sincere there. You can’t be disappointed, you just need to understand and think what to do with it, how can we help all these people and help us.

For you, such an impact of propaganda has become a surprise?

- Yes. It seemed to me that people still understand what Soloviev was saying there. But it turns out, no. One of the tasks for us all is somehow not only to find an intonation, but also a word to talk with people who sincerely believe that if we had not entered there, we would be attacked. I have close friends educated who sincerely ask the question: “Do you understand if they attacked?” And I understand how important it is for us to build a dialogue and not to quarrel.

It is surprising that you still have a desire to maintain constructive relationships.

“Otherwise, we can’t cope.” We all live for a long time, to live our children. These people also need to help. I told this friend: "Listen, they would attack, then we would defend themselves." It is necessary to find some words, and not "a fool, no NATO was going to attack."

About a conversation with the authorities

At some point, you said that you are proud that the “rain” managed to get away from the “swamp” activism and become objective media. It seems to you that in the current situation, “rain” can become impartial media?

“I'll correct it here.” We stopped at some point to be activists, matured, realized that it was better to be over the fight. But we are no objective media. And there is no objectivity in our position and in the position of any normal journalist. There is an objectivity of fact, yes. There can be no objectivity [in itself]. I am the subject, I hire the editor -in -chief with certain views, he hires similar journalists. We have never been objective in this sense, always retained our position. And now we are definitely on the side of good, not evil. But, of course, we will try very hard to build a dialogue - not only with the people that I talked about, but also with people who are in power. They will tell me now: how can you be with criminals in a dialogue? In some cases, it is necessary. And with those who completely sold the soul to the devil, it is impossible.

Where is this line at all or not quite?

- It would be interesting for me to talk with [the head of the Central Bank] Elvira Nabiullina and even [the first deputy head of the presidential administration, Sergei] Kiriyenko. I want to understand the motives - what is there in my head, how much is it a mask that you put on, or do you really believe in it? I believe that a person must give a chance, to anyone. Because we are not black and white. Although now it is clear that when people are dying, it is wrong to say that there are some other colors. But it seems to me important to hear these people too.

Do you think they have some difficult answer to this question?

- I think he is. The question is whether they are ready to talk about it.

It does not seem to you that this line, when it was possible to have some good motives, being in power, is already crossed?

- On the one hand, yes. But I still want to try to understand how a person approves the actions of the Russian army, I want to understand why. We don’t know, maybe they are holding someone hostage, you know?

It seems to me that you are a very kind person.

- It's like my letter to girls : Simonyan, Zakharova, Kandelaki.

Did you really believe that they would seriously answer you something?

- I was not just believed, I felt that I should do it. And it seemed that maybe I would manage to reach a little. At a minimum, I can get to people nearby, who may make some kind of decision.

And how do you evaluate the result?

- I received a lot of messages in a personal from people who were in this state: to become Ovsyannikova or not become, publicly or non -public. They were somewhere nearby, and for them this letter was the last point before making a decision-to get up and leave. And it seems to me that if I managed to reach these people, then it was not in vain.

About prohibitions

"Rain" was blocked in Ukraine for a map where Crimea was part of Russia ...

- And now they will block the same way.

Can you tell this story on your part? And what do you think, how will the relations of the “rain” with the Ukrainian audience take shape further?

“I don’t remember all the details now.” Our editors followed not to violate the law of any or another country. But the human factor [plays a role]: by chance, this map crawled out ( in January 2017, the National Council of Ukraine on Television and Radio Broadcasting banned the broadcasting of “rain” due to the fact that in the program “here and now”, as well as on the website of the channel showed cards on which Crimea was designated as part of Russia.-approx. “Cold” ). It is clear that in Ukraine there were radical anti -Russian activists who pulled out this card and began to ask how it was.

We really violated the law of Ukraine. It was necessary to follow it more carefully. But then we took it strangely, because everyone behaves like Putin. In general, I think that you do not need to ban anything, close, ban. It is necessary to create conditions for different ones to work. Although I will make an amendment: given what crime the propaganda committed, maybe it is necessary to ban and close so as not to create the situation that happened. Because I believe that if there were no eight years of brainwashing, then there would not be the support of Putin that he needed to unleash this war. Maybe we must ban when this is obvious propaganda, but in general, I do not like any prohibitions. I don't like it when RT is prohibited somewhere. This is also wrong.

Seriously?

- Yes. You can punish the fake, for lies, prove it. You can turn on some other levers.

There is such a principle - no freedom to the enemies of freedom. Do you not share it?

- No. You see, this is about democracy. Democracy is a complex process. I can say the company to manage the company. Periodically I want to stomp, slap and say that it will be so, that's all.

You don't do that?

- I have not been doing it for a long time. There are times when I feel that I need to give a little to do the right thing. But I do not always manage to convince, and sometimes I agree with the decisions that seemed wrong to me. If we want to build a really normal society with normal democratic values, with freedoms, it is important to study, even at this level.

I remember when we were closed in 2014 ( operators massively excluded “rain” from broadcasting packages after a survey conducted by the channel by the anniversary of Leningrad’s blockade: the audience asked “whether it was necessary to pass through hundreds of thousands of lives”; in the State Duma, this survey was regarded as rehabilitation of Nazism. [support] from people who were not fans of the rain did not share our eyes. They said: we have a second point of view. And therefore, I believe, it is necessary not to prohibit others.

About emigration, shame and Russia of the future

Are you going to put a dick about foreign agency?

- This company is not Russian. Start with a clean sheet. If they recognize, we will put a dick. Due to risks for people.

How much does your team share your opinion that you do not want to emigrate for good?

- Nobody wants to. Everyone wants to Russia. Everyone was without home - it is very difficult. And then, this is not your choice. Not that I decided for no reason to go to live in Amsterdam for a year.

But I am sure that we all have such an opportunity, and we will all build this beautiful Russia of the future together. I really believe. The spring contracted, and then it will go the other way - we also passed it. You are just young, and we remember this wonderful time of the beginning of the 1990s, which was fantastic in the feeling of freedom, the future.

How old were you?

-20-22. It is clear that we were young, and this added our charms, but it was an incredible time of possibilities. When you opened, the country has opened, the world has opened. I remember how I wanted to come abroad and that it was written on my forehead that I was from Russia. Such was pride. Because we were so quickly mastered in new realities, the market. At the same time, I understand how hard it was for people, how much fate was broken. But it was a country that breathed freedom. We found it - and we will catch it.

And now you have no shame because you are from Russia?

- Not at all. I have no shame, I proudly say that I am from Russia. And I always say that Putin is not Russia, people are not Putin. And Ukraine is not a Russian people bombing, although many Ukrainians consider it differently. They have the right to think so, but I tried to do everything that I could do. I have no shame - I have pain.

I have no words for them. Probably, I understand this through the body, although I don’t know what to say at that moment. I had several such situations. A girl-officer somewhere in Berlin, young, sees that the Russians, but it seems to be normal ... We talked with her, and she begins to tell that she is from under the Irpen. And so I pressed her, a twenty -year -old girl. And she let her go and let me go.

Yes, I'm afraid, we will not achieve understanding for a long time. It is only possible at a personal level.

- Of course, they have every right to spit in the face. Of course, this is a tragedy with which we all have to live for more than a dozen years. But I think that if the vector changes, then you can restore everything. I'm not about Ukraine’s attitude towards us, not about forgiveness. If we are people, we need to repent, apologize, we need to find these words. And we never did this, we have imperial [consciousness]: we never asked for forgiveness, we did not say that we were wrong. In the end, why did not decess? She really did not happen. The genocide of their own people was not recognized so that everyone would realize. Before they had time. We need to not make mistakes again.

They did not have time or did not want to see.

- I think they did not have time. It was very difficult. I and those who passed the 1990s, we think a lot about it-where our fault is, responsibility, why they did not make, why did not happen. The most difficult was the economic situation, and all forces were thrown to pull the country out of complete devastation and poverty. And this part did not have enough time. Here was the center of economic reforms, and ethical ... This must be explained to people. And then we move on to capitalism, and do not explain what private property is. What is its value, why is it important, why human life is important. It seems to me that this is one of the reasons [war]. And we all need to think about how to change it.

About the fault of the West

You said that you did not expect foreign companies to leave, just to play it safe. Do you have complaints about how the international community is coming now?

- Eat. They are not to blame for what is happening, but, of course, there are. In my opinion, the cynicity of the collective West is evident - we see this in many moments. For example, advertisers who left us. Recently, by the way, I received satsis. I was just at the [advertising] conference, I told them everything: “You and your brands, agencies, for eight years financed the very propaganda from which you shy away. And before that, the “rain” and a large number of independent media were banned, and you never gave us advertisements, and until recently we were in black lists. ” This is one part. The second: some brands leave the market, officially close, and then begin to sell indirect sales, somehow bypass sanctions.

The so -called parallel import.

- Yes, all this is observed. There is a lot of cynicism in politics. I have no illusions, charm. Another thing is that I felt over these four months at the human level: Europeans are very compassionate, they are very empathic. I saw volunteers in the Austrian village, they collect money there, go to the border with Poland, settled refugees. This is exclusively their initiative. And, apparently, this is a culture for many years - here I have been taking off my hat. On the human level, this is already quite deep. And everything else ...

Yes, it is not clear how to abandon Russian gas so that Europe is not completely frozen. But who is currently financing the war budget?

One of the arguments why sanctions are imposed is that you come further and say: “Putin, why did you arrange such a life for us? We now have no yachts, they don’t let go anywhere, the planes do not fly. ” [The idea is that they can somehow influence it, to arrange a palace coup. But this does not work, it gives exactly the opposite result.

That is, it seems to you that the West is pushing the conditional Abramovich and Friedman into the arms of Putin?

- They push, because there [everything] was closed to you, then then let's sit here together. I am not a political scientist and not an expert, these are my impressions. Western journalists ask questions and are surprised: can they really not do something, somehow convey to him? No, no, it doesn't work for us.

About love and dancing during the war

Are you ready for a new novel? Or while work-work?

- Maybe even ready. As always, you will sublimat in work, so you do not have time to think about it. But it seems to me that yes. I still have no tango now, so ...

Why not?

-The coach remained in Russia, I still wander somewhere, and the coach needs constant. I need to stop somewhere, find a permanent teacher and dance. This is not enough for me. Обычно танго компенсирует: вроде пообнимался, потанцевал, окситоцин получил — и пошел дальше, можно и без романа.

Я позволю себе этический вопрос, который у многих моих друзей сейчас возникает. Можно ли вообще веселиться и танцевать танго во время войны?

— Это вопрос, который я себе тоже постоянно задаю, и у меня нет на него ответа. С одной стороны, жизнь продолжается. Даже когда умирает твой близкий — ты прощаешься с этим человеком, ты переживаешь эту боль, но не закрываешь себя в черной комнате и в черной одежде. В том числе, потому что этот человек тоже не хотел бы, чтобы ты всю дорогу рыдал.

Если ты не закрываешь для себя, что идет война, что гибнут люди, что каждый день совершаются преступления, если ты реагируешь на это, что-то делаешь, помогаешь, то ты при этом остаешься человеком, который живет. Ты не сидишь в комнате и не плачешь с утра до вечера. И поэтому ты можешь и танго танцевать где-то на вечеринке, потому что ты пришел на день рождения, допустим.

Тут надо быть честным с самим собой: да, в моменте я сейчас танцую, а ночью я буду рыдать, потому что увидела очередную украинскую бомбежку. И это я — и здесь, и там. Я тут переживаю, а тут радуюсь.

До войны ваши последние интервью были в основном про то, что вы наконец чувствуете себя в гармонии с собой, нашли какую-то рифму с вселенной, что все получается и во все верится. Каково ваше состояние сейчас?

— У меня нет уже такого гармоничного состояния, потому что у меня нет дома — и это тяжело. Еще у меня опять огромная ответственность — а вдруг не получится? Это не только про «Дождь», а про то, что именно ты не сможешь справиться и сделать. И это меня держит в состоянии негармонии.

Надо постараться сделать очень хорошо. Я хочу «Дождь» всеобъемлющий, «Дождь», который полил бы всех нас. Я как-то так это вижу, что он будет всех объединять. Но я не знаю, получится или нет.

Поэтому план у меня такой. Хочу запустить «Дождь», чтобы все заработало, чтобы полетело. А потом можно поехать в Аргентину поучиться танго, потому что я хочу в какой-то момент попробовать стать чемпионкой мира по танго. Одна аргентинка сделала это в 65 лет. Так что у меня еще почти пятнадцать.