"But there was no longer tomorrow." The path of Ukrainian refugees to Armenia

On the air of "Freedom" - refugees from Odessa to Yerevan

The humanitarian corridor is not only legal, legal or military. A person needs to support psychological and medicinal care, warmth and word. There are not only disasters medicine, but also the language of disasters. Several million Ukrainians left their homes. The world community rose to protect the latest exiles. About this picture of the world created before our eyes, the podcast series "Humanitarian Corridor". By the width of this corridor, they will judge the morality and responsibility of our era. The presenters are Ivan Tolstoy and Igor Pomerantsev.

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There are no more values except life

Ivan Tolstoy: Our interlocutor today is Susanna, an ethnic Armenian from Kherson, who fled with a daughter from the war and living today in Yerevan.

What were your feelings and impressions in the last days before leaving Kherson?

Susanna: We left Kherson on November 10, all the previous months of occupation we were in Kherson with the hope that this nightmare would end. And the last days we understood that we were left without light, water and gas, missile strikes intensified, the cruelty of the invaders intensified, and I understood that I needed to take away the child from the child, while she was still alive. We left early in the morning, all the boats were already sunk so that people could not leave. We went on a cargo boat, the children were thrown with banana boxes so that they were not visible, then it seemed to us that it could save children from bullets that flew over our heads.

Ivan Tolstoy: What did you do in Kherson, your profession?

Susanna: I worked in kindergarten, my daughter studied at the Polytechnic College. And the garden, and college, and all that is native to us, this no longer exists. Everything is subject to restoration, and when it will be - it is incomprehensible, because to this day the city in which we lived is destroyed daily, purposefully and cruelly. In residential buildings, in kindergartens, in schools, at people at stops. Still. There, Ukrainian troops are now in Kherson, but the situation is much worse than we could imagine.

Destruction in Kherson

Ivan Tolstoy: When was the last working day for you?

Susanna: February 23. We were preparing for the open lesson, which was supposed to be February 24th. We prepared, but the materials all remained on the table. We told the children "until tomorrow", but tomorrow there was no longer, because early in the morning we were all given to know that the war had begun and we did not accept the children. On this our happy life ended.

Ivan Tolstoy: How did you survive these months in Kherson? Did shops work? How did you eat?

Susanna: No, they (occupying troops. - RS) robbed everything, looting, banditry, we survived as best we could, I can’t even choose a word and say how we survived. We refused to work for the invaders, our entire kindergarten of 48 people refused to work, so we survived.

Ivan Tolstoy: The invaders did not force you to go to work?

Susanna: No, they said that if you refuse to work, free the room. There were many who wanted to work for them. We will never work for them, even if we die of hunger.

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Ivan Tolstoy: Let's get back to the boat. Where did the way go?

Susanna: We lived on the right bank of Kherson, were supposed to cross to the left bank, the city of Aleshki, which, unfortunately, was occupied. We had to go to the Crimea through Alyoski by bus, and then cross the border from there. We were very carefully preparing for this border, because they very carefully checked the phones, things, documents, who we worked. They asked us, Khersons, why we were leaving the Russian Federation. Psychologically, they simply mocked us.

I don't even remember what we answered

Well, how to answer this question? I don’t even remember what we answered. They missed us, probably because the Ukrainian troops had already entered the 11th and, it seems to me, they already knew about it. There were already fewer people, because the bulk of it left, perhaps 20 percent of people remained in Kherson, they simply cannot leave, because they are old, lying or those that cannot leave these elderly and lying people. Then we arrived by bus from Krasnodar in Yerevan.

Ivan Tolstoy: What are you doing now in Yerevan?

Susanna: I work, take care of the child, my daughter studies remotely at the Odessa Polytechnic College. The organization "Doporogo" provided us with housing, we already live here for 4 months. This is my historical homeland, I am an Armenian by nationality, but I still hope that I will return home to myself.

There are no more values except life, I understood it now

Ivan Tolstoy: Are there many of you like you, Armenians from Kherson?

Susanna: A lot. People were saved lightly, we did not even take things. There are no more values except life, I understood it now.

Ivan Tolstoy: Let me wish you good luck, health and happiness.

Susanna: I did not think that I would pay again, I thought I would calmly talk to you, you will forgive me for emotions.

Ivan Tolstoy: I understand perfectly, hold on, there will be victory. Hug your daughter and hold on.

Our next Yerevan interlocutor is the economist and volunteer Elena Shevchuk.

Elena, where did you teach and what?

Elena Shevchuk: I taught economic theory at the Odessa National Economic University.

Ivan Tolstoy: And what made you leave for Armenia?

Elena Shevchuk: Nothing forced me, I voluntarily. I was on maternity leave, and we came here on a trip with my grandson. Arriving in Armenia, we just stayed a little longer than planned, then I returned to teach, but at some point it became clear that it was better to live here.

Elena Shevchuk

Ivan Tolstoy: War somehow scorched you, found you?

Elena Shevchuk: I was found by the war here, the one that was in 2020, the Armenian war of the 44-day . I was a witness to this war, in Odessa I was not at the time of the beginning of the war.

I have very close ties with Ukraine, because I worked there, I was constantly there for several months a year, there my parents, there my brother, in almost every major city in Ukraine, I have relatives. There are a huge number of people, I know who is from which city, and when they beat some of the cities, I immediately remember who is from this city, I write or ask after some time: what are yours? Where was it? Do you know what kind of place it is, where the rocket hit?

Igor Pomerantsev: Elena, before a mass invasion of Ukraine in February in Ukraine, about one hundred thousand Armenians lived. Are there any approximate statistics, how many Ukrainian Armenians have moved to Armenia or to other countries?

Elena Shevchuk: I have a little different statistics on the number of originally living Armenians. It seems like about 300 thousand officially lived, and unofficially, I even heard the figure of 700-800 thousand. And then there are mixed families, father or mother of Armenians, and children are like Ukrainians. And there are many such families, they do not fall into statistics by the number of arrivals. There are Armenians - citizens of Ukraine, and there are Armenians - citizens of Armenia who lived in Ukraine. These figures are in the official statistics of Armenia-somewhere 22 thousand citizens of Ukraine arrived in Armenia and about 19 thousand left. That is, the balance of the remainder is 3 thousand. But this is only a question of citizens of Ukraine, among whom the majority are ethnic Armenians.

Yerevan. Borsch for refugees

But there are a huge number of people who lived in Ukraine for many years, even decades, at the same time have not received citizenship of Ukraine, they are actually refugees, but they are not refugees according to the international definition. This is the least protected category - they cannot get refugee status, they do not receive payments, they have difficult enough.

Ivan Tolstoy: What is your help to refugees from Ukraine?

Elena Shevchuk: This is humanitarian aid. But we do not just give a help package, we register a family, or this is a mother with children, or large families (men who have more than three children are released from Ukraine), or these are grandparents, men also get, but mainly those who could go through the territory of Russia. For example, Mariupol, some part of the Kharkov region, they could only go through Russia, they were simply not allowed into the territory of Ukraine. And we register the family, give the primary kit, which includes hygiene and products.

Then we continue to provide support within a few months, regularly, every two weeks we give a package of help, medicine (the procedure is certain there, we get documents that a person has a diagnosis). We also have information assistance and support, because a huge number of people have first of all questions about how to get refugee, where to go first, what other organizations provide, what addresses.

Yerevan. Center for Volunteer Assistance "Doporogo"

Because people running from the war, as a rule, are much more disoriented than those who just arrived on a tourist trip. These people have a lot of questions, but there are very few resources, because every mistake and ignorance of the situation, even ignorance of where to get, is the expense of funds. And you need to show how to reduce this path, where to go right away, what documents must be translated and which is not necessary. There is such a nuance that people who initially received a refugee card should not continue to transfer documents in order to get any services. And we are talking about this, because notarial translations and certification of documents in Armenia are very expensive. These all small information nuances are very important and are needed by people.

Igor Pomerantsev: In 1944, the Crimean Armenians, along with the Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Bulgarians, were deported from Crimea. This is told in Armenian schools? Have you met people who remember this in Armenia?

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Elena Shevchuk: I know about it, and there are Armenians who also know about it, but I did not look at the school curriculum. But I really know that there are people who talk about it, they spoke a lot and in detail in Ukraine in connection with the Crimean Tatars, but the fact that there were Armenians and other nations, I heard about it very casually.

Igor Pomerantsev: Are you somehow connected with other Ukrainian organizations in Armenia? I read that there was a periodic publication "Dnipro-Slavutich", then there was a Ukrainian church community. Do you cooperate with them?

Elena Shevchuk: Initially, we were the help on the basis of this community. But when a much greater initiative of the humanitarian arose, many volunteers appeared and it was necessary to premises, they simply created at this moment a separate organization, which is directly involved in refugee issues. But now it turns out that even all the issues of the community, diaspora, since people come and they need information help, most people here are also from the community with us.

Yerevan. Poster in support of Ukraine

Ivan Tolstoy: It is known that Armenia is a country friendly for Russia. In general, not two sides, but three participate in this tragedy. How does the Russophile character of Armenia affect the problem of refugees?

Elena Shevchuk: A very good question, only I would have clarified it for myself: not countries are friends, but the political leadership has certain interests. And this does not mean that the country's population has the same interests. I am not talking about this regarding the Armenians of everyone, because I am not entitled to talk about it, but you must always remember that Armenia is a participant in the CSTO, but Ukraine is not. They are not allied countries, and this leaves a certain imprint on relations. But I can definitely say that Armenians understand the pain of Ukrainians. Most Armenian refugees from Ukraine tell their loved ones in Armenia what happened and is happening in Ukraine, how and what we help, and this is very changing the situation.

Recently, there really have been various private statements in relation to Ukraine, but at the state level I have never heard any statements, prohibitions or something that could interfere with our work during all this time. Moreover, recently Prime Minister Pashinyan, he had a press conference, he said that we have democracy, and if Ukrainians want to go out and express their thoughts freely, then we have nothing against.

Yerevan. Promotion in support of Ukraine

Igor Pomerantsev: Elena, you lived, studied, worked in Odessa. What do you know about the Armenian community of Odessa, how does it live, what interests were before the war, what happened after?

Elena Shevchuk: Indeed, I know about her firsthand. It so happened that my children are Armenians. When we came to Odessa longer than two or three months, I joked that in Armenia my children came to the Ukrainian community, taught the Ukrainian language, and in Odessa I brought them to the Armenian community. My son attended classes in the Armenian cultural center in Odessa, I know about the activities of the Armenians of Ukraine, we have contacts, dating with them, and I know about their position. And in the early days of the war, the Armenian Union of Ukraine supported in support, they said that we were with Ukraine. And there is confirmation of this - there are not many people from the hundred thousandth Armenian population of Ukraine, this means that the Armenians of Ukraine near Ukraine and feel there at home.

Igor Pomerantsev: I read the following statistics: before the war, more than half of the Ukrainian Armenians considered the Armenian language, more than 40 percent - Russian and only 5 percent - Ukrainian. Can you explain this statistics?

Russian in Armenia is not an aggressor language, as for Ukraine

Elena Shevchuk: Many Armenians, those who are in the second generation, who did not live in Armenia, is natural that they were Russian native language, and then Armenian. And the one who lived on the lands, where they spoke mainly in Ukrainian, considered Ukrainian family. Here the Russian language in Armenia is not an aggressor language, as for Ukraine. This is the language that absolutely everyone understands, and we, Ukrainians, had to get used to it. It was not easy, because in order to communicate with the Armenians, we have to use the Russian language. We very often communicate in Ukrainian, but we have to use Russian, and we just agreed that we will use it not as the language of the aggressor, but as the language that the Armenians understand. Even the diplomatic mission of Ukraine uses the Russian language in order to speak the same language with the Armenians. It’s easier to perceive this situation.

Ivan Tolstoy: Elena, are the Armenians of Ukraine somewhere except Armenia? For example, to your favorite France?

Elena Shevchuk: Yes, I think that, like other residents of Ukraine, Armenians, unfortunately, are traveling to different corners of the Earth. Armenia has a very large, branched diaspora, they always choose to go to where there are close relatives, the opportunity to get a job. But I always ask our Armenian refugees the question: do you want to return home? And everyone wants to return to Ukraine, there are no people who say that we are trying to take root here. Because we have a wealthy, successful, happy life there. Was.

Yerevan. Promotion in support of Ukraine

Igor Pomerantsev: Do you know anything about the Armenian militias who are part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces?

Elena Shevchuk: Yes, I know, because I am subscribed to Ukrainian Armenian resources, I even know the person who, unfortunately, who died in the struggle against the aggressor. I can make a mistake, but more than seventy Armenians have already given their lives for Ukraine. I think that there will still be a moment and we will talk a lot about it, just now everything is putting on their sleeves who can do what, but you always need to pay tribute to the fact that the Armenians chose to be with Ukraine at this difficult moment.

Igor Pomerantsev: Do you forget your native Ukrainian language?

Elena Shevchuk (responds in Ukrainian): We speak Ukrainian every day here in an office with Ukrainians. We have a lot of classes, conversational clubs, films in Ukrainian. We cannot forget it, and all our information resources are in Ukrainian.

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