Center from Centor

He says he is the leader of the Chechen people, and demands to make Putin the lifelong president of the Russian Federation (this material was released for the first time in 2004)

Interview with the youngest son of the late president of the Chechen Republic Akhmat-Haji Kadyrov, thus 27-year-old Ramzan, who, for a long time in the post of head of the security service of his father, allowed his tragic death as a result of the attack, after which he was not only unclenched for the service of service, but immediately received a great increase-the post of the first deputy prime minister of the Government of the Chechen Republic for the Sila; And now, having the title of police captain, he commands colonels and generals.

This material was published in No. 43 (973) of June 21, 2004. We published it in an anniversary issue. You can buy it here

The interview with Ramzan was difficult. It turned out that it was almost impossible to do this in Grozny-Ramzan constantly sits in the Gudermes district, in the village of Centora (another name-Hosi-Yurt), and now the Chechen capital was actually transferred there. In the sense that it is here - the current center of power and decision -making by government and presidential structures, and not in Grozny. Not Ramzan, for example, goes to Abramov (Sergey Borisovich, acting President of the Chechen Republic), and Abramov (like many other officials) - to Ramzan. Here, in the Center, the candidate for the post of President of the Chechen Republic - the so -called nomination from the Kadyrov team, took place. As you know, ALU Alkhanov, the Minister of the Republican Ministry of Internal Affairs, became the chosen one, and he was publicly proclaimed precisely in the Center, not even counting that he himself was not there, moreover, he was in the morning on the day of the alkhanov’s alkhanov day.

So those who want to see the son of Kadyrov should go an hour and a half from Grozny by car, pass the Argun, Gudermes, Novogrozny, Bachi-Yurt and burns in the Sito Safety-a series of gearboxes (one after another), protecting the approaches to the first deputy prime minister, which, we must assume, is very afraid of Chechens, if he was unfortunately unfortunate from them. As a result, the center today, this informal and political and economic capital of Chechnya is a real fortress, not at all cozy, not beautiful, with crowds of armed people on narrow, winding dusty streets and with giant monsters fences, for several of which are the houses of the Kadyrov.

In anticipation of an interview with the correspondent, Novaya Gazeta was taken to the “guest house”, so others said. So six or seven hours passed, the prospects for the future were unclear, the evening came when in Chechnya everyone needs to hide in minks, and no one could say anything about Ramzan.

“So where is Ramzan?” - asked.

- Now, now ...

And time again flowed into nowhere.

The waiting watch is not known what the person, Vakha Visaev, was brightened up for supervision. He turned out to be the head of the Yugaulproduct LLC, or simply - the director of the new Gudermes oil refinery. Vakha is also a candidate for the president of the Czech Republic. And also from the “Kadyrov’s team” (as Ramzan later tells, he will personally vote precisely for Vakhu - however, it is not worth it to take such confession seriously, this evening Ramzan admits in many ways that contradicts each other, and that he would vote for Alkhanov).

In the meantime, Vakha proposed a tour of the guest house, and he turned out to be a perfectly decorated manor. With a fountain in the yard. With Bamboo Hong Kong Furniture on an open terrace with columns, as is done in Cyprus. With marble gray-green fireplace opposite the central entrance. With paired, jacuzzi, pool. And with the main attraction-two huge bedrooms, crowned with studies, one in blue, the other in pink. But with a massive, pressing furniture of a dark tree, with which for some reason they forgot to remove the price tags, and all these thousands of "w.E." climb into the eyes -But, apparently, in the Center-2004 it is so fashionable.

The tour also included an inspection of a small and very dark office. He adjacent to one of the bedrooms, and his main decoration is already-the wall carpet of Dagestan work with the socialist-realistic portrait of Akhmat-Haji Kadyrov times when he still walked in a papaha, on a black background.

When it became dark, Ramzan appeared. The darkness of the armed people came with him, they were everywhere - in the courtyard of the estate, on the terrace, in the rooms. Some subsequently intervened in the conversation and commented on him, including in very stringent and aggressive tones.

Ramzan fell apart in a chair, lifted his leg high in his toe, almost to the level of my face, which he, of course, did not even notice - and the interview began.

- Tell me, why now your people are credited to the state of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, they create another special regiment from them, if Chechnya is already stuffed with different detachments and it would be better to start a return to peaceful life?

- It is necessary. We want to restore order not only in Chechnya, but throughout the North Caucasus. They are credited to the Ministry of Internal Affairs so that we can be sent to Stavropol or Leningrad at any time ... We will fight everywhere in Russia. I have a directive - to work throughout the North Caucasus. By bandits.

- And who do you call bandits?

- Maskhadova, Basayeva* and the like.

- That is, the task of your people is to find Maskhadov and Basayev?

- Yes. The main thing is to destroy them.

- Everything that happens under your name, so far only fits into such words as “destroy”, “eliminate”. But maybe enough to fight?

- Of course, enough. 700 people have already surrendered under us, a normal life live. We ask the rest to stop meaningless resistance. But they are fighting - therefore, they need to be destroyed. The day before yesterday (the interview took place on June 10. - A.P. ), five people were given to the prosecutor’s office, today three were taken. Two destroyed. One is a large emir. Nashiho. From the group of Doku Umarov. There he is a great authority. So we destroyed him. In Ingushetia. They all rest there.

-And what right do you have the right to destroy anyone in Ingushetia, as a security service of the President of Chechnya?

- Legal law. We are part of the OUR, operational management of the FSB in the North Caucasus. We held this event together with the Ingush FSB. We have all the official permits.

- Now in the territory of Chechnya, in addition to your detachment, there are detachments of Kokiev, Yamadayev, etc.

- You should not name detachments by last name. My guys are listed everywhere - in the FSB, some in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in reconnaissance.

- I see, but not a lot of detachments?

- Yes, what units! Chechen riot police - 300 people. In other regions, riot police are 700-800. Kokievsky time ends - they are military, they will be withdrawn.

- In March, Khambiev gave you (Minister of Defense of Ichkeria. - A.P.) What is he doing now? Does the squad also create?

“Do you want to bring him? .. He is as a negotiator with our bandits.” They know him. He used to get this work - with Turlaev, for example. Do you want him to bring him too now? (Shaa Turlaev - the head of the personal guard of Maskhadov, also surrendered, being in a serious physical condition, and his leg was amputated. - A.P. ). Khambiev will not have his own group. We will only have a group.

- You did not hurt that in the media, Khambiev admitted that he was a traitor?

- This is a lie. They just write like that - but he is not a traitor.

- How do you personally imagine Maskhadov’s change: Maskhadov comes to you and says: “I came”?

- Yes.

“But he can't do this?” Do you have too much age difference?

- Maybe. Where he will go. If it does not come, let's give it. He must sit in a cage.

- Recently, you announced an end to amnesty and an ultimatum who was unhappy. Is this Maskhadov?

-No, this is for 17-18-year-old guys who do not know anything-they are deceived by the Maskhadovs, go to the forest now, their mothers cry, ask: help, Ramzan, return their sons, curse Maskhadova.

So this is an ultimatum to women to look well after their children. I tell women to find their children as soon as possible and then do not blame us ...

- You announced that those who do not give up are subject to destruction.

- Certainly. What a conversation can be.

“But maybe it's time to stop destroying - and you have to sit down at the table?”

- With whom?

- With all the Chechens who are fighting.

- With Maskhadov? Maskhadov - no one there. Nobody listens to him. The first figure is Basayev. He is a strong warrior. Maybe fight. Good strategist. And a good Chechen. And Maskhadov - an old man, poor fellow, nothing can. In his last year-2003-was a women's battalion that guarded him. (Laughs excitedly. All those present immediately begin to laugh. - A.P. ) All - women. Only two guys were with him. I can prove all this. I am writing everything. I know these women. They told me: “If we refused, we would be destroyed. We were without work, and he gave money. ”

- And now Maskhadov has a female battalion?

- No. We broke Maskhadov. He has other people now

- In your words, disrespect for Maskhadov and clear respect for Basayev?

- As a warrior I respect Basayev, he is not a coward. I ask Allah to meet Basayev in an open battle. One dreams of becoming president, another pilot, tractor driver. And my dream: in an open field to fight against Basayev. My group is against his people - and so that no one else. And so he commands. And I commanded.

- And if Basaev wins?

- No. One hundred percent - me. In battle, I always win.

- In Chechnya, many talk about your conflict with the Yamadayevs.

(Hudermmes brothers Yamadaevs: Khalid - now the State Duma deputy from United Russia, Sulim is the deputy military commandant of the Chechen Republic, have a strong detachment, it is believed that Ramzan works under the patronage of the FSB, and the Yamadayevs, and now, in the peak of the candidacy, as they say, “from the Kremlin”, half -resource of the graffiti: “Yamadayeva is“ Yamadaeva - Our president . "

- Not true. It is impossible to be with me in the conflict - that person is not to do.

- How do you evaluate yourself? What is the strong side of your character?

- How is it? I don't understand the question.

- Why are you strong? And what are the weak?

- I do not consider myself weak. I am strong.

- The fact that ALU Alkhanov was declared a presidential candidate from you - on Kadyrov’s team, how much did this depend on your desire?

- I'm only a team member.

- Who made this decision?

- All. Thought for a long time: who can? They chose Alkhanov because I consider him strong. And I trust him absolutely. What do you think, the Kremlin chooses? The people choose. This is the first time I hear that the Kremlin decides something.

- Strange, but I heard ...

(There will be very little time - an hour, no more, and Ramzan will say the exact opposite: that only the Kremlin decides everything, that the people are cattle and that he personally was offered to “become president” immediately in the Kremlin, but he, Ramzan, refused because he “wants to fight”. - A.P. ))

- If you left us alone, we, Chechens, were one long ago.

- Who is “you”?

- Journalists are like you. Politicians Russians. You do not let us restore order. You disconnect us. You got up between the Chechens. You are the enemy. You are worse than Basayev.

- Who else are your enemies?

- And I have no enemies. There are bandits.

- However, Malik Saydullaev is your explicit political competitor ...

- Saydullaev - a handkerchief, and that’s it. He is yours. And you draw under his tune. I will prove that you are lying.

- And who is a handkerchief?

- Torchka, and that's it. I can’t explain. Three or four months ago I had a conversation with him, and he himself confirmed that it was not a competitor to me. He said what a unique person Kadyrov and that the like is not the same in Russia, in the world. I have it recorded on the recorder. I was even afraid that he would not advance now - I want everyone to see how they would not be elected.

- Are you going to be the president of the Czech Republic yourself?

- No.

- And what activities do you like best?

- Fight. I am a warrior.

“Did you kill someone yourself?”

- No. I always commanded.

“But you are still too young to always command.” Someone commands you ...

- Only Kadyrov. No one commanded me. And he will not command.

- Did you give orders to kill?

- gave.

- Not scary?

- It's not me - this is Allah. The Prophet said: Wahhabis must be destroyed.

- So he said? .. And when will the Wahhabis will not, with whom will you fight?

- I will engage in bees. I still have bees. And bulls. And the dogs are fighting.

“Do you feel sorry for the dogs kill each other?”

- Not sorry. I like it. I respect my dog ​​Tarzan as a person. The Caucasian shepherd is the most just dog.

- What other hobbies? Dogs, bees, fight ... and? ..

- And - walk. I love women.

- And your wife does not mind?

- I am secretly.

- What are your shoulder straps now?

- The captain of the police.

- How long have you received them?

- A month ago.

- How long did you stay with a senior lieutenant?

- They didn’t give me a long time. Year and a half. Everyone went for me to give the captain.

- Are these epaulets important to you?

- Of course, I am a warrior and policeman.

- So a warrior or policeman?

- This is one and the same.

- What is your education?

- Higher legal. I finish. I pass the exams.

- Which?

- How is it - what? Exams, and that's it.

- And what is the name of the institute that you graduate?

- Branch of the Moscow Institute of Business. In Gudermes. Legal that is.

- What is your specialization?

- I am a lawyer.

- And what right is the diploma? Criminal? Civilian?

- Forgot. I wrote the topic, but forgot. There are many events now.

- Why did you run, as an abnormal, along the football field after the victory of the Terek?

- I did not remember anything with joy. I swear. Then they told me and showed on TV that I ran across the field. Kadyrov set the task: you need to pick up the cup.

- Why?

- Don't know. But his word is a law for me.

Further to Ramzan, Shaa Tourlaev, the chief of the Maskhadovsky guard, Major of the Presidential Guard, the Cavalier of the Chechen orders “Hero of the nation” and “Hero of the nation”, a gray-haired 32-year-old man with an amputated left leg-he is in the Center under guard, was brought to Ramzan. Later, Magomed Khambiev appeared. Magomed said himself-Shaa seemed to be banned from talking with a journalist in Russian. Ramzan announced that he could not. (People who knew Shaa confirmed that he used to own the Russians perfectly.) Khambiev had a arrogant and pleased look. Shaa has a dedicated, but worthy. Khambiev constantly assented Ramzan. Shaa preferred proudly to be silent. In translation, his words were heard as follows: “He fought since 1991. Until 2003 he was in the protection of Maskhadov. Maskhadova has not seen a year and a half. I have been walking with a wound for two years. There was a doctor, an operating room. I could not go out. But I wanted to go out to the wound, because Ramzan and I used to fought together. When Ramzan personally sent people, the villagers said: go beyond Ramzan, his path is correct. Maskhadov is a weak person. His strength is not visible. One remained. Around - 20-30 people. "

- Is it really a women's battalion?

Silent. He lowered his head and shakes it, but unclear - “yes” or “no”. The general conversation is Smoburen and does not glue. Soon after Shaa, a middle -aged man appears in a skullcap, sits on the right hand from Ramzan and seems to be Nikolai Ivanovich. All at the same time grinning - it means that he is not Nikolai Ivanovich. Ramzan says he translated Shaa. It becomes quite quickly clear that when Shaa says three words, “Nikolai Ivanovich” translates several sentences, as Shaa realized Maskhadov’s detriment. I am indignant - and “Nikolai Ivanovich” as a chain breaks down, goes on the attack, insults. No one stops him. Ramzan laughs, pleased, and begins to frankly beat us, and soon it becomes clear that in this, to him, a lover of dog fighting, there are no equal at the table.

The conversation acquires an ever higher emotional degree - “You ask for the bandits”, “You are the enemy of the Chechen people”, “You must answer for it.”

Ramzan is already yelling, jumping on a chair - and already “Nikolai Ivanovich” is being disguised. I recall, I recall, it takes place at a large oval table and is increasingly reminiscent of a gangster gathering from the film "The meeting place cannot be changed."

However, the status of Shaa remains incomprehensible in all this shabash. Who is he - the captive of Ramzan? Or is it still voluntarily held in the center? And Ramzan behaves strangely - it seems like the eldest in the house, although here he is the youngest. Constantly laughs out of place. Causes. Bends. Dance. He supports ridiculous remarks.

The translated Shaa continues.

- Is it possible to unite with Maskhadov?

- Yes, I would like that. Russian politicians bother us. If they leave us ...

- What politicians interfere?

- who talk more, they interfere.

- Putin?

- No, he is our man.

- When did you abandon the idea of ​​independence for Chechnya?

- When I was convinced that the words of Basayev and Maskhadov are not true.

Ramzan is clearly not on the wool that Shaa received so many questions. He wedges. It's time to finish. I ask the last question - and he became the only one that Shaa answered himself.

- When were you happy? When was the happiest time in your life?

- This was not.

Ramzan interrupts:

- Do you know, Khambiev voted for Putin?

Khambiev was shaving his head in agreement:

- Yes. He does not drink like the one. He is hard. In Chechnya wants order.

- And what is missing in Chechnya for full order?

- A little. Yandarbieva* has already been removed. If Zakaeva*, Berezovsky and Udugov* will be removed, then there will be order. They are customers. Basayev is the performer of their will. Basaev is not fighting for the Chechen people.

- And for what do you live for?

- For the sake of yourself. For the sake of the people.

- In what quality will you serve him?

- How Ramzan will decide.

- Why should Ramzan decide?

- He is the first person among the Chechens. Ramzan promises me to make me president of the freestyle wrestling Federation.

- How old are you?

- It will be 42.

- How do you feel about taking your relatives to give up?

- Fine. The nephews were guilty, so they took it.

- What are their fault?

“They wore me from Maskhadov, bread.”

— В интервью журналу «Коммерсант-Власть» вы назвали себя предателем.

— Не подтверждаю. Не говорил я так. Я — сын своего народа.

Рамзан, довольный, нагло хохочет. Заваливается назад — счастлив. Идет смотреть себя по телевизору — и очень этим доволен. Комментирует походку Путина: «Красавчик!» Путин, кажется ему, ходит, как горец. А за окнами-то — ночь… Надо выбираться, а страсти все накаляются… Наконец Рамзан распоряжается, чтобы отвезли в Грозный. За руль садится Муса, бывший боевик из Закан-Юрта, и два охранника. Плачу, конечно. И это слабость… Конечно. Но ночью удалось выбраться в Грозный — и это счастье.

Утро следующего дня начинается в Грозном со звонка Тауса Джабраилова, председателя Госсовета ЧР. Он просит поехать в Центорой — «там сдался полевой командир, хочет дать интервью. Please. Это — десять минут».

И опять — сеть центоройских КПП, «гостевой домик», толпы вооруженных, тонны видимого оружия, у камина сидит Рамзан: «Не будет тебе никакого полевого командира! Чего захотела!» Сегодня он крайне агрессивен, взведен, бешеный, временами просто визжит. За его спиной — высокий парень в бейсболке и черной куртке. Он все время подзуживает:

«Тебя надо было расстрелять еще в Москве, на улице, как там у вас в Москве расстреливают… Тебя надо было расстрелять…» Рамзан вторит: «Ты — враг… Расстрелять… Ты — враг… Ты знаешь этого человека?»

На диване действительно человек со знакомым лицом. Это — Ибрагим Гарсиев из селения Танги-Чу, тот самый, который год назад служил в охране Рустама Сайдуллаева, брата Малика Сайдуллаева, в пору, когда Малик баллотировался в президенты и был главным конкурентом погибшего Кадырова. С Гарсиевым мы тогда встречались, и он охотно демонстрировал всем желающим журналистам побои, рассказывал, как его пытал в Центорое лично Рамзан, требуя пронести взрывное устройство в дом Сайдуллаевых и взорвать Малика. Более того, тогда Гарсиев написал заявление на имя генпрокурора РФ с требованием возбудить уголовное дело против Рамзана.

Сейчас, 11 июня 2004 года, в Центорое, Гарсиев готов написать обратное заявление (как и случилось) в ГП, что Рамзан его никогда не пытал, что это сам он пришел к нему два-три месяца назад и рассказал все: что писать-читать он вовсе не умеет и то, первое заявление ему подсунул Рустам Сайдуллаев, велел подписать, а побои прошлого года были результатом пьяного наезда на другую машину. В кресле сидит человек в камуфляже, он оказывается лейтенантом Рамзаном Джамалхановым, и.о. начальника Урус-Мартановского РОВД, который пьяный наезд с травмами тут же подтверждает. Два Рамзана — Кадыров и Джамалханов — говорят, что они — старые друзья, и объясняют, как могло произойти, что Гарсиев подписал заявление в ГП. Оказывается, это «дружба по-чеченски» — когда друг тебе дает какую-то бумагу и ты ее подмахиваешь не глядя. До сих пор о такой дружбе слышать не приходилось, но Джамалханов клянется: если сейчас Рамзан его попросит что-то подписать, то ему «будет западло смотреть, что он подписывает». Под диктовку Гарсиева пишут новое заявление в ГП, опровергающее предыдущее… Гарсиев оказывается бойцом какого-то спецотряда «Восток», базирующегося на Ханкале, — ГРУшники, наверное, они обычно тут собирают таких.

— Будешь писать опровержение, что я не бандит?! Будешь? — орет Кадыров, явно играя на камеру. Она работает постоянно и оказывается «пресс-службой Федерации бокса ЧР». — Я тебе докажу. Ты — враг. Я тебя заставлю. Ты — хуже Басаева. Ты встала между чеченцами. И русские генералы встали… Если бы не вы, мы бы давно договорились.

Шабаш длился несколько часов. Рамзан то плясал, то орал, то лез трясти руку, то уходил разговаривать с приехавшим в «гостевой домик» Абрамовым, то возвращался и снова орал: «Я — не бандит. Я тебя заставлю. Не отпущу».

Наконец терпения не осталось, я встала и пошла вперед, была не была. Конечно, слезы не просто душили — они уже придушили. Конечно, ждала очереди в спину. Хохочущая вооруженная толпа грохотала вслед — они тоже пошли. Рамзан висел на шее несчастного Гарсиева и орал: «Сфотографируй нас, слышь!» Потом бросил Гарсиева, догнал, схватил за руку, опять стал трясти…

Рыдала до Грозного. Охранник, которого дал председатель Госсовета для поездки в Центорой, спросил только: «Словом? Или действием?» И взвел автомат. Машина вылетела из Центороя на такой скорости, о которой лучше не задумываться. И неслась над землей — так бывает тут, когда ожидают засаду, чтобы было больше шансов. Машина с Гарсиевым и правда пролетала рядом. «Не плачь, ты же сильная», — повторял охранник.

У одних оружие защиты — автоматическое, стрелковое и пр., и оно висит на боку. У других — слезы. Этим люди и отличаются. Когда исчерпаны аргументы — да, собственно, центороевская среда и само слово «аргумент» не понимает — тогда остаются слезы. Это — слезы отчаяния от того, как подобное вообще могло случиться. Что виток истории поднял на гребень именно Рамзана Кадырова. И он силен и безраздельно правит — естественно, как умеет. Что никто — НИ ОДИН МУЖЧИНА, находившийся в эти два дня в Центорое рядом, не посмел остановить распоясавшегося. Что именно Рамзану, а не кому-то другому вечером звонил из Кремля «Владислав Юрьевич» — слышала — Владислав Сурков, замглавы путинской администрации, и это был единственный момент, когда Рамзан перестал хамить, сам того не замечая, потому что чует, откуда его сила…

Итак, старая-старая сказка, каких в истории было немало: Кремль вырастил дракончика, и теперь требуется постоянно его подкармливать, чтобы он не изрыгал огонь. Тотальный провал российских спецслужб в Чечне, который эти спецслужбы пытаются выдать обществу за победу и «строительство мирной жизни».

Чечня, 21.06.2004

* Внесены в список международных террористов в 2003–2004 гг.

Under the text
Послесловием к легендарному тексту Анны Политковской предлагаем считать исследование Елены Милашиной о нынешнем состоянии Р. Кадырова. См. стр. 26–27