"Navalny and Yashin betrayed their homeland"

Sergei Udaltsov is a former political prisoner who supports Russia's invasion, the law on “foreign agents” and the fight against traitors. That's why

The coordinator of the “Left Front” Sergey Udaltsov is one of the few leaders of mass protests in 2011-2012, who continues to engage in politics while remaining in Russia. It seems because, criticizing Putin, he supports the war. And also, not having the opportunity to participate in the elections because of the criminal case for the “organization of riots”, supports candidates from the Communist Party. For example, Udaltsov was a confidant of his grandson Gennady Zyuganov in the elections of the Moscow Mayor. The editor of Kholoda Maxim conspiration talked with Udaltsov about all these contradictions.

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This is an abbreviated and edited version of the interview from the new video project “Cold” “We are power”. In it, we are talking with politicians who, it seems to us, will fight for power after Putin. The full version of the interview with Sergey Udaltsov See on the YouTube channel "Cold".

You actively participated in the elections. For what?

- I understand that many today have a skeptical attitude towards Russian elections, and in many ways I share their skepticism. Let us recall our protests [against falsifications in the elections] on Bolotnaya Square and Sakharov Avenue, in which I took part: the system that was 10-11 years ago seemed unfair and dishonest, but if we knew what we would come to, we would probably not have believed it.

Now the situation with the elections is difficult: in many ways they have turned into a farce. But my personal position, my comrades, like -minded people, lies in the fact that if we are in the political process, then we should not fall out of the current agenda, from life. And if we do not participate in the elections, then we must offer some kind of alternative plan of action, because it simply not to participate and sit at home on the couch is extremely inefficient.

At the moment, the tactics of participation in the elections and support of the most opposition forces, candidates who are in the elections of governors, mayor, in the regional parliament and further according to the list are more effective. For me, as a person of left -wing views for today, from the entire palette, with all reservations and with all criticism, these are our closest allies from the Communist Party, so we have been cooperating quite tightly with them for several years. Therefore, I believe that, recognizing as a whole, the dirt and uncleanness of our elections, in this situation, I can apply such a well -known saying or a proverb: with a lousy sheep at least wool a faucle.

Well, the Communist Party of the Communist Party of the Communist Party of the Communist Party was put forward by Leonid Zyuganova (scored more than 8% of the vote, which is almost 10 times less than Sergey Sobyanin) , about which people know only that he is the grandson of Gennady Zyuganov.

- I will remind you, in 2012, when the opposition’s mass protests were in full swing, then there were presidential elections, and I was a confidant of Gennady Zyuganov and campaigned the entire protest community to support him as a contrast to Vladimir Putin. My position is very consistent: then I was a confidant of Gennady Zyuganov, now I am a confidant in the elections in Moscow Leonid Zyuganov.

This is a sequence.

- Yes, the sequence is good. I am not a supporter of [political] throwing. Who to nominate from the Communist Party, decided the Communist Party. I am not a member of the Communist Party, I cannot influence these questions. If you ask me, I am 10 years ago, and now a supporter of the primaries, preliminary selection of candidates through a public procedure. Sooner or later we will come to this. But in this case, the Communist Party put forward Leonid Zyuganova. I have known him for a long time. Since 2014, he has been heading a commission in the Moscow City Duma for industry, in science, this is an experienced politician: he is 35 years old, but he is already nine years old in these processes. He impresses me with personal qualities.

But this is a candidate with the zero chances of success, abandoning the debate. This is an absolute game of jail with Sobyanin, in which you also take part.

- I understood your logic. You say: let's not participate in all this. I have already told you that I am not enthusiastic about the current elections, but we are taking such a pragmatic position: what we have, we work with that. If the Communist Party is nominated by Leonid Zyuganov, I support him. If he was known to me as a corrupt official, an dishonest person, that he drinks the blood of infants, that he is a criminal element - I would never support him.

And if you will be brought from the forest and put forward from the forest, and you will support him?

- Do not interrupt or exaggerate. Hedgehog elections are a separate story. We are about human elections. There is our candidate, I take the minimum task, he takes a confident second place in Moscow (the interview took place before the announcement of the election results.-Approx. “Cold”) . It hit the future. Because we can continue to position ourselves as a second force - not unfounded, but appealing to the same elections and throwing on top the voices that stolen from us. I always say to people: “Take any result of the candidate from the Communist Party and add 15–20%there, which we stole in our ways. This is a serious result. ”

Let's get back in the time of that coalition of 2011-2013, which you have already mentioned. Moreover, we are talking to you before the 10th anniversary of the dissolution of the coordination council of the opposition. There was a time when you were called on a par with Alexei Navalny, Ilya Yashin, Harry Kasparov, Maxim Katsa. Now no one will put you in this row. What do you think, why?

-I am not at all gloating, but Yashin and Navalny are in isolation for many years, and we are and participate in the [political] process: we can do something today, and we are doing this very actively. And we are supporters of the patriotic course. I criticize power, but in this regard I is in solidarity with her. Unfortunately, both Alexei and Ilya Yashin, and many others you called, took an unacceptable position for me, therefore, of course, I do not want to stand with them through a comma today. They betrayed their homeland.

And you supported the war.

- I did not support the abstract war. I supported the will of the inhabitants of Donbass, and we have been taking this position since 2014. They wanted to self -destroy, they opposed the rule of Nazism and Bandera in Ukraine and had every right. I am always for democracy. The fact that this special operation began the government of Putin - yes, this is bad. They conduct it with mistakes, in their selfish and political interests, but this does not mean that because of this we should spite my grandmother's ears and betray the inhabitants of Donbass. Here is my simple logic.

More than a year and a half after a full -scale invasion, it really seems to you that Russia defended the inhabitants of Donbass? What became better for them after February 24, 2022?

“I will tell you a very simple thing.” How this special operation goes-I have a lot of questions, a lot of criticisms, but I am not the Minister of Defense, I am not the president, I have no moral rights to this today and give some advice from the outside.

Why don't you have?

- We live in our country, I am a citizen of Russia, therefore, in this case, I do not consider it possible to betray its interests for myself. Here is a simple logic: you have to be with your country at such turning points. But this does not mean the full support of the ruling class, presidency, government. Here is the dialectics of the present moment. Be with your country, achieve improvements, achieve changes. Because the alternative that we are offered from the West is the humiliation and enslavement of Russia, and it does not suit me at all. In the 1990s, I came to politics, because I was disgusting the situation in which we were brought by the Yeltsin freaks that saved Russia. I don't want to return there. And the defeat of Russia today is a return there. We may have the most liberal president, but it will be the most frenzy situation of complete enslavement - I do not want this. Therefore, I am with my country, I want to make it better, stronger, so in the coalition with the left patriotic forces we achieve changes inside, but at the same time we do not betray the inhabitants of Donbass. Here it is, logic. If it is difficult to understand, then this is the problem of those who perceive, this is your problem.

Let's go again. You are talking about the support of the inhabitants of Donbass and the interests of Russia. What corresponds to these goals in this war? It seems to you that Russia has become better during this time? It became better for the people who live here? And the inhabitants of Donbass, whose cities were erased from the face of the earth?

“I repeat again.” The capitalist model, imposed on us in 1991, led us to the fact that the fraternal peoples exterminate and destroy themselves. But calls for defeat, you can’t help some surrender of Russia. This is not a way out. This is just a betrayal. We did not make these decisions, but today, knowing the will of Donbass and realizing that the West does not carry anything good to Russia in its current manifestation, we inevitably with our country. That's all the logic.

If we solved these issues, we would have done differently. Back in 2014, relying on a referendum, which took place in Donetsk and Lugansk ( “referendums” about self -determination of the self -proclaimed DPR and LPR were under the control of pro -Russian separatists. The Constitution of Ukraine provides for the country's territorial structure only through the All -Ukrainian referendum. Ukraine, USA, EU, PACE and the Obse regarded the “ referendum ” as a referendum as a referendum as a referendum The illegitimate one has announced “respect for the results”, however , de jure did not recognize them. And it would be better not to ruin the Soviet Union and live with one friendly state, as we lived with Ukrainians all the way. But sorry, this was done without us, in addition to our will, so today, when this porridge is already brewed, thousands of people have died ... Here come to the Donbass or talk with the guys who are fighting there, and tell me how these abstract calls “No War” sound, “Let's all stop”.

And I talked with refugees from Mariupol, and they did not thank, believe me, Russia for*** " Protection of their interests . " They asked: “ Why did you come there? " How would you answer this question? “To help you, so that you have to escape from your country”? *

- I will repeat again. You cannot argue against this: several referenda in the DPR, LPR passed. Nobody drove people there under the muzzle of machine guns. This is a common stereotype, but there was no such thing, we know the mood there: the majority wants to be with Russia. In many respects due to the erroneous policy of the Ukrainian leadership after 2014. This is largely the fault of the Ukrainian authorities - even in the initial plan, of course, and they are also being encouraged by the West. There is always someone who is displeased. We take the vast majority of the inhabitants of Donbass - they want to be with Russia.

Responsibility for this brewed porridge, yes, lies with all the rulers of this global capitalist world. And on the Russian leadership, and on Ukrainian and Western countries. Unfortunately, this is so, the responsibility is collective, everyone was pushed to this war, and today dividends are extracted from it: the oligarchy profits, the military -industrial complex of different countries profit from this, the leaders increase political capital, usurp power. This helps Zelensky further to usurp power, and Putin, and Biden resolves his issues. This is clear.

But how to get out of this situation? The call for the surrender of Russia is just a call to ensure that Russia is humiliated again and there were even more victims. There is only one way out - to change Russia for the better. Therefore, today, by victory, we see the left turn of Russia: a new fair power, a new socialist project, which will just unite billions of people in the world who hate American hegemony, American imperialism. And we are just trying to appeal to the left movement in the West, to the left forces of Europe, and in the same states and around the world - raise anti -war movements there. The sooner the west of the Ukrainian armed forces ends, the faster this world will come.

I am a realist, I am not a supporter of an infinite war, bloodshed. I myself suffer and worry every day from what is happening. I have a wife (State Duma deputy Anastasia Udaltsova. - Approx. "Cold") herself from Ukraine, this is a fraternal people for me. I was born in the USSR, for me a disaster is what is happening. I repeat once again: calls for the defeat of Russia, we will not achieve anything to the undermining of Russia. We will achieve only the worst, it will be meaningless suffering and a large number of deaths in Russia.

There would be no calls to defeat if the war had not been started.

- You are all trying to give history a subjunctive inclination. If then there were no, a lot of things would not have happened if something had once. We have what we have today.

This is not a subjunctive mood, I ask you about your responsibility for supporting what began on February 24th. Now you say that elites are profiting in the war, you say that * ** “ Special operation ” * passes badly, that we are as far from the world. At the same time, at the very beginning you supported this. And there were a huge number of people, politicians - from the left front, and from the right front, and liberals - who opposed the war. Can you now, in the middle of 2023, admit that your ideological opponents, who immediately opposed, turned out to be more distinct and immediately realized that this would not lead to anything good? **

- What they supported or did not support, did not affect anything, they could not defend their position. A few days before February 24, the State Duma decided to recognize the independence of the DPR and LPR. The Federation Council approved it, the president ratified the recognition of these republics. We were completely for! That is, the goals of the special operation proceeded from the fact that for eight to nine years, the inhabitants of Donbass suffered! Who did it? Putin? This was not done by Putin. It is difficult to blame me for some kind of love for Putin, but not Putin did it, shells flew there from the Ukrainian side. Foreign shells.

This is a key question, and no one will answer it, because it is the fault of the West and the Ukrainian authorities. I love the Ukrainian people, but the Ukrainian power, of course, does not accept in its current manifestation. Therefore, it was necessary to somehow solve this problem. People say that they want to be with Russia, we suffer, we are dying, and we remain indifferent - this is wrong. Another thing is how a special operation is technically carried out. Yes, there are a lot of questions not only for me - you yourself know who, and here constant battles take place in social networks and anywhere. This is a separate question. But the goals are still true.

Yani has not changed his mind over these years and a half: it was still necessary to protect the Donbass. I believe that the processes that are now taking place will lead to the fact that Russia will become stronger, and we, the left -poatriotic forces, will put the maximum of our capabilities to this. It will become more fair, and this will be the result that will be justified. But just now to say that we were mistaken, that everything was in vain - and what will we come to then? To amazing and surrender?

Sometimes it is important to admit your guilt, your mistakes. Isn't it?

- There is no fault on us, absolutely. The leftopatriotic forces of Russia here are as saints, we are the most consistent and fundamental people. There is no fault on us.

As in any war, you need to look at the root cause. The root cause is not in us.

You always say that you can not wish for the defeat of your country. How do you feel about Lenin?

- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, you yourself know very well, one of the leaders of the world left communist movement, one of the leading practitioners and theorists. Of course, I treat him in the most positive way.

When he wanted the defeat of his country ** “ in the imperialist war ” , as he called the First World, he was a traitor? *

- Those who are trying to compare these two situations today make a huge mistake. During the First World War, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin and the Bolsheviks took a striking position in their essence not to their country, but to their bourgeois government, the bourgeois authority in tsarist Russia, because they saw a powerful labor movement that had risen in those years. Socialist movement in the leading countries of Europe. And in Germany, and in France, and so on. Therefore, the call of Lenin was addressed to the proletarians. Why should we fight? For the sake of the interests of the ruling class? Let's stop this war and build the World Soviet Union.

You yourself just said that the elites are profiting in the current war. Literally like Lenin 100 years ago.

- I also said that we turn to the workers of both Ukraine, and Europe, and the West as a whole: raise anti -war movements there. If we see these movements and if they gain momentum and become influential power, then really in cooperation with them you can raise the question of the cessation of hostilities. But today, when this is not, calls for surrender, defeat smell of betrayal. Not all that Lenin and the Bolsheviks did 100 years ago is applicable today. It is necessary to take into account a specific geopolitical, economic situation. Today for such calls we have no reason. Will the situation change tomorrow? Everything is possible.

You mentioned your spouse - Anastasia Udaltsov. Politically, you are associates and like -minded people?

- Of course, how can it be otherwise? For many years we have been engaged in this political, social activity. Of course, associates.

Будучи депутатом Госдумы, Анастасия Удальцова проголосовала почти за все репрессивные законы, которые этой Госдумой принимались. Вам кажется, что репрессии внутри России — это тоже благо для России, это хорошо?

— Нет,есть масса репрессивных законов, которые касаются граждан России, которые ни фракция КПРФ, ни Анастасия не поддерживают. Но те законы, которые касаются сейчас наших национальных интересов — а у нас, извините, по факту если не военное положение, то военное время, — они неизбежны. Это во всех странах одинаково. А на Украине что, не так? А на Западе не так? Там любая иноагентская деятельность пресекается, поэтому здесь я не вижу никаких противоречий.

Что такое* **« иноагентская деятельность » ? *

— Вы прекрасно знаете. Получение финансирования от западных структур.

Так вот Анастасия Удальцова проголосовала за закон, который позволяет признавать* **« иноагентами » * без финансирования. Достаточно влияния. Вот вы находитесь под влиянием иностранца Че Гевары?**

— Вы меня простите, сегодня каждый делает свой выбор, по какую он сторону баррикад. Он со своей страной, если против нее ведется агрессия? У нас погибают сегодня мирные люди, пролетают беспилотники, вы сами знаете — это что, нормально? Вы мне какую-то странную позицию пытаетесь навязать, какую-то власовскую.

Еще раз повторю: мы нисколько не являемся апологетами действующей власти, ее сторонниками. Мы как занимали принципиальную оппозиционную позицию, так и занимаем, нас не в чем тут обвинять. Но при этом мы не хотим становиться на позиции национал-предательства. И вот эта грань. Когда люди начинают, по сути, работать на противника — извините, это их выбор. Военная ситуация. Делайте свой выбор: вы со своей страной или с противником. Страна может быть плохая, кривая, где вам не нравится власть — да, проблем у нас миллион, но это наша страна. Если сегодня есть угроза унижения нашей страны вплоть до поражения и уничтожения, расчленения, конечно, надо быть со своей страной. Сохраним страну, наведем здесь порядок. Не будет страны — где вы будете наводить порядок? На обломках, на руинах? Я уже одну родину потерял в 1991 году, я не хочу вторую родину потерять и стать скитальцем.

Запад всегда был врагом России. И Советского Союза. Это для нас аксиома, а не какое-то открытие. Я много лет очень тесно взаимодействовал и на Болотной площади, и на других мероприятиях с нашей либеральной оппозицией. Я не буду называть имена и фамилии, но в целом я видел, что зависимость от Запада там довольно серьезная. Не прям идолопоклонничество, но ориентир на Запад, на их ценности, на некоторое поклонение.

Новые левые во всем мире, в том числе и на Западе, выступают за равенство прав и возможностей для всех, вне зависимости от цвета кожи, сексуальной ориентации, гендера и так далее. Вы против этих ценностей? Анастасия Удальцова — одна из соавторов закона о запрете трансперехода.

—Проблема западного левого движения связана с тем, что еще во время существования Советского Союза за счет конкуренции с СССР западный капитал, буржуазия вынуждены были серьезным образом делиться со своими трудящимися, вводить те самые социальные гарантии. И вот — вроде бы социальные гарантии высокие, подачки довольно серьезные от правящего класса, и западные левые перестали концентрироваться на базовых вопросах — взятии власти, национализации собственности, — а начали заниматься такими сопутствующими вопросами: защита прав меньшинств, животных, экологии. Это важно, но в целом это уводит от главного вопроса, базисного, экономического. Чья собственность, наследство, производство? Вот я левый, я марксист, я вижу в этом главную причину. А западные левые многие, конечно, ушли в сторону. Для них важнее сейчас вопросы гендера, защиты прав меньшинств.

Для вас права меньшинств и экология — это сопутствующие вопросы?

— Я считаю, что это как раз не позволяет западным левым вернуть доминирующие позиции, которые у них были, например, в послевоенные годы, после Второй мировой войны. Нам не надо это все копировать, надо учитывать национальные особенности. Если брать вопросы сексуальных меньшинств, трансгендеров, я глубоко убежден, что в России их права не ущемляются, но выпячивать эту проблему и делать из этого некий фетиш — это абсолютно не нужно. Большинство россиян не нуждаются в гей-парадах. Спросите людей: нет такой потребности, не нуждаются они в какой-то пропаганде всех меньшинств. Пусть меньшинства живут спокойно, их не надо ущемлять, но их не надо и пропагандировать. Вот ясная и понятная позиция, поэтому мы ее придерживаемся. С западными левыми мы никогда не враждовали, но мы их призываем: усиливайте там голоса антивоенные, есть уже такие тенденции, мы видим демонстрации то в одной стране, то в другой, мол, хватит финансировать украинский режим, накачивать войну — это правильно. Но надо это усиливать.

Обобщу то, что вы сейчас сказали. Правильные левые — это те, которые выступают за уничтожение Украины, не защищают права меньшинств, потому что с ними и так все в порядке, и вообще, большинство диктует правила игры. А борются они главным образом за государственное регулирование экономики. Все так?

— Вы как-то очень упростили эту ситуацию. Пусть занимаются чем считают нужным. Я же не навязываю свое мнение. Да, мне ближе такая позиция, но это дискуссия и поиск истины. Поэтому я не хочу огульно всех западных левых критиковать: у них своя правда, логика, философия, но борьба за политическую власть — это борьба за контроль над средствами производства. Над экономикой. А сопутствующие вещи: борьба за права животных, экология, гендер, — это пусть будет у каждого своя национальная особенность, и пусть для кого-то это более важно, для кого-то — менее. Глобальная задача — сдвиг мира в целом в левую сторону, всемирный Советский Союз. Мне лично такая перспектива очень близка. Как и Ленину была близка, которого мы сегодня упоминали.

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