Olga Romanova: "Russian prison is one of the worst places on Earth"

Russia is a prison -center country, says Olga Romanova, founder and director of the Rus Sitting Foundation. The prison has its own role in the war with Ukraine: the recruitment of the prisoners, the use of them in "meat assaults", the return of survivors with secret pardon and their new crimes at large - the gloomy background of a full -scale invasion. How all this became possible and whether the penitentiary system in Russia can become different, Olga Romanova told in an interview with North. Realiy.

According to official figures, as of January 1, 2023, 433 006 people were contained in the criminal executive system of Russia. About ten years ago, the prison population was twice as much - 700-800 thousand people, and all of them, the head of the Rus Sitting Romanova Foundation, assures the prison, is still dreaming, because "it does not pass without a trace." To calculate what share of the population of Russia is connected with the prison, you need to take into account all the employees of the judicial system, police, escort, actually guards in the zones, prisoners - and all this is multiplied by three, given the families. To add a diverse business related to the zone, suppliers of goods and services. In the context of the increase in repression, the prison becomes “its” theme for many ordinary law -abiding citizens - journalists, artists, activists - who become political prisoners. “When they say that every fourth man was sitting, this is not so. But the fact that every fourth man with the prison is somehow connected, this, of course, is so,” Romanova believes.

With this interweaving of prison and will, mutual influence is inevitable. Accordingly, the restructuring of the penitentiary system is important for the development of Russian society as a whole.

- The existing Russian penitentiary system is very decrepit. She last reformed in 1953, when Beria took prisons from the subordination of the NKVD and handed them over to the Ministry of Justice. Now the FSIN is formally under the Ministry of Justice, but the last 15 years the FSIN directors have been either police or Ephesus. The last time the professional jailer at the head of the system was in 2009 (Yuri Kalinin, director of the Federal Penitentiary Service from 2004 to 2009, today - one of the leaders of Rosneft. - SR), says Olga Romanova. - In fact, the very old, Stalinist rule prevailed that the main thing in the system of execution of sentences is not a correctional service (not psychologists, not doctors, not teachers, not a master who are able to affect criminal and criminal behavior), but operational work. The operatives became the most important. And not only the operatives of the FSIN, but also the operatives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB. These are intra -chamber developments, this is the recruitment, hence the torture - because the main task was to obtain or conceive information when the prisoners are forced to perform certain operational developments. For example, to be false in court.

The system, which was created in 1930, actually the Gulag, has still been preserved. It consists of two parts: of a pre -trial detention center (temporary detention centers) and zones, which are built on the principle of a concentration camp, which was invented in In 1899, the British during the Anglo-Burial campaign. These are rows of barbed wire, tower inside, huts. In the 1920s, these concentration camps from South Africa were adopted by Soviet Russia and Germany. When we come, for example, to Dachau or in Auschwitz and We get inside, then those who were in Russian camps say: this is the same! Of course, the same. Exactly the same principle.

This system in Russia is now the main and only. This is unprofitable, because many camps simply heat the tundra. This is inconvenient because the old infrastructure. We have to spend a lot of money on the same dogs, on guard. It is expensive to keep colonies in Labytnangi, in the Cherdyn of the Perm Territory. The prisoners must be taken to the court, relatives must come to them. There should be shops, infrastructure. To drive people into the tundra to be a fig, so that what? To fix the polar radiance?

This is a politically very unprofitable story-the invention of the 19th century, and we live in the 21st! This is not even vintage. A very archaic approach to the topic of crime and punishment.

All this can be redone, and very easy. In Germany, where I live now, two very different systems united in 1990 - the GDR and Germany. The unification of finance, economics, political, judicial, legislative system was very difficult. There were big problems with the industry. There were no problems only in the combination of penitentiary systems. At the same time, the GDR system was a copy of our, Soviet. And the Western system was ordinary European, which, in fact, remains. She is not perfect, better, of course, the American, but she is very far from neighboring Holland or neighboring Denmark, and even more so to Scandinavia, which is ahead of the planet of all. But the unification occurred, in general, painlessly. And if you study this experience, you understand that the prison reform is never Newton's bin. This is not an adron collider. For example, the Russian reform of the judicial system is an adron collider. Public control reform will also be quite complicated. A very difficult future police reform. And of course, the most difficult is the judicial. But the prison - no. There are recipes. Ah, "Rus has special to become." Yes, nothing like that. Listen, dragged experience from South Africa, and nothing is buzzing.

"The oily of stupid and aggressive loafers"

- Throughout its history, Russia is borrowering something, then from Europe, then from America. Why isn't it here?

- In 2016, Alexei Kudrin called "Rus' sitting" and a number of scientists, economists, geographers to write, including a plan of prison reform. We worked together with several groups - with those who wrote a project for reforming the judicial system, and with those who were engaged in the reform of law enforcement agencies, especially the police, so that we have a forming puzzle. And so we wrote this concept. It was accepted at the Center for Strategic Development, which was then headed by Alexei Kudrin (CSR - a non -profit organization created in 1999 on behalf of Vladimir Putin to develop strategic development programs. - SR) . And then we just hoped that it could be, someday.

- What does this reform consist of? How do you see a new penitentiary system in Russia?

- Penitentiary reform - it is boring, and most importantly, very cheap. I understood when I wrote this reform that it would not pass, because there is nowhere to steal. On the contrary, it abruptly reduces the budget, but officials and politicians do not like this. Now the Federal Penitentiary Service has the sixth largest budget in Russia among all budgets - less than the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Defense, but more than the FSB, prosecutor's office, and courts. This is a lot of money. According to the finances of the FSIN, this should not be. There is no need for the country to maintain such a horde of stupid and aggressive loafers. I say this with an open hack. If earlier we could say that somewhere there are still human faces, now for a long time no longer. I would say this: in boys who for some reason they want to become security forces, the FSB and intelligence of the GRU are quoted at number one. The Ministry of Defense is number two. Then the police and the bailiffs. And in the FSIN there are those who have not taken anywhere at all - according to the residual principle. Well, the attitude is the same.

There is a vicious circle here. Little salary. Nowhere to go. Father served, grandfather served, and the children will serve. And never break out. You hear in any zone when you come: you will move and leave, and we are here forever. Such moods. And in the last ten years, the movement of labor dynasties, and glorious exploits have been developing everywhere, and almost every zone has a stone that our zone, red -digit, was formed in 1937. And here is our glorious veteran, let's learn from experience. What experience?! The bloody dynasties of the executioners ...

- And how to break it?

- The most important thing is to remove epaulets. The FSIN should not be a paramilitary department, should not enter the power system, because the security forces have already done everything, they have already caught the criminal. Then it should be transferred to civilian specialists. Judges are evaluating the already investigated crime. And then the person who is found guilty by the court enters his punishment. It is isolated from society, because he is dangerous-he stole something or beat someone, he can do it again. And so that he does not make again, let's work with him, let's socialize him.

The task is to make the prisoner no longer be a criminal. How to remove criminal behavior from it? Now this is achieved by the assumption that if you march on the parade ground with military songs, then everything will change. Or the prisoner will change using a mop in the ass. No, of course, all this is not so.

First of all, we need a variety of teachers and stimulating the thirst for knowledge. Does it want to go to the university? Let him study in absentia. For this you need the Internet. Equipment is needed. We need a desire, after all. He wants to end the vocational school, let him finish. And certainly he must graduate from school. Psychologists should work, doctors must work to see if he has tuberculosis, does hepatitis, HIV, is not a person with an open form of tuberculosis, although he sat down healthy, but a healthy person who is not afraid to be in society, so that he would coughs calmly, and we would not hide and did not run to take tests after meeting with him. Masters are needed so that they are engaged in production, not hack workers, but for them to come, teach. Maybe a person wants to embroider or make a movie. Yes, for God's sake, let's hire specialists. Here is the form of the fight against unemployment.

And the second thing - the second key to the prison should be the local authorities. Now, when a person is in jail, he disappears for local authorities. Here Vasya sits in hooks, for example (IK-2, a colony in the Ostrovsky district of the Pskov region.-SR) . They gave him ten years, and he disappeared from the radar. The FSIN is engaged in it, and the local authorities have no idea what is happening there. For example, Vasya receives an education, specialization of plasters. And the Pskov region needs bus drivers. Very needed, but no one wants to study. I could have taught the zone, but it does not contact the local authorities and has no idea that bus drivers are needed.

Then, Vasya was thrown by his wife. It is expensive to ride him, for a long time, we need to educate children, snotty, how to go to him? The transport is expensive, everything is expensive. And she throws him. And now Vasya comes out in ten years, he has no family, he doesn’t have a house, he has nowhere to go, and he has no work, because Vasya was specialty of plasters, and the region needed bus drivers, and plasters and so an oversight. Well, what to do, Vasya wants to eat - it will go further to rob passers -by.

And if the local authorities know that a resident of the city of island fell into hooks, then he thinks: so, what is our work force for ten years? We are building a woodworking plant, let's learn from woodworking. And Vasya gets an education. Further, the local government thinks: Vasya has a wife and children snotty. Listen, wife, you, Vasya do not leave, but let's help you with products or will give part-time jobs, arrange transport. Let us give you a social worker so that while you are there for three days with Vasya on a date, someone would look after your children. Because the authorities are interested in Vasya to come to his wife after the zone, then she will boil borsch when he wants to eat, and he will not go to rob cottages.

Not a single governor in the world, be he at least three times a member of United Russia, if he was even a crocodile, does not want him to grow criminogenicity. Not only is it a bad indicator in any way. So all the local crime falls on the local budget. And it is easier for the governor to help Vasina to his wife and children, than to tear off Vasya from the budget later to capture him, they would be caught again, and again judged.

- That is, the idea is that the convicts remain part of the society, despite the serving of punishment?

- Certainly. Therefore, in French prisons, in German prisons (a little smaller there), and even more so in the Scandinavian prisons there are public associations. In one prison, for example, 1200 NPOs are accredited. In our country, there have never been so many in our life, and there 1200 are accredited only at one prison. A bunch of volunteers in all countries are ready to deal with prisoners, show films, give lectures, help them, I don’t know, learn to play the guitar. I often meet local pensioners in prisons who come for a walk with a dog. But because prisoners need to instill empathy. And then the owner is an old man, and his Rottweiler is young. And the prisoner with him plays the ball. The dog runs. The prisoner is joy. He will love the dog and begin, maybe after that, to love people.

And such funds as “sitting Rus'”, which rushes with prisoners in all prisons, are generally to a fig. Our organization consists mainly of former prisoners. And if we are not to expel us in foreign agents from the country, but to give us calmly to develop, we would continue to hire former prisoners. So they are under supervision. Not only do they receive a salary, they are among their own, who understand them, know very well what to expect from them. And we need people with fresh prison experience. We need people in the regions.

There is a huge front of work than to occupy former prisoners. A person can go, for example, to the mugs of young pioneers, to tell how bad to sit in prison: here, brothers, what happens if you have criminal behavior. Or he will be purposefully, knowing who is sitting from the disadvantaged residents of neighboring countries, immigrants from Central Asia, to transmit their programs to them. You can make joint projects with the government of Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan, which are also not interested in the prisoner to return to the radical Islamist. Because there is nothing to eat a convict, he came to the form of the Committee. And in the format, a radical Islamist sits. And in order for the poor Dehkanin to be given tea and cigarettes, he needs to listen to the correct interpretation of the Qur'an. And the peaceful Dehkans, who had no idea about extremist movements, falling into such green zones, come out of there with convinced extremists. They have nowhere to go.

"Corrects not a prison, people correct"

- The colony, in principle, is it really correctional institutions or only one name?

- Fixing human nature is almost impossible. In principle, the prison itself has not yet corrected a single person in the world. It is not a prison, not a restriction of freedom, people correct. When you have a lot of free time, there is something to occupy. Loaning, take a socialist, take medicine, take up useful skills. And it is desirable that people who have experience do it.

In Scandinavia, these are Denmark, Sweden, Norway, well, plus Finland and Holland, which have joined them, are very close to ideal penitentiary systems. They also believe that they do not correct anyone, but give the opportunity to take time. What is the meaning of punishment? So that the person who leaves prison does not commit new crimes. These two-, three-room cameras with game consoles-for what? Do they love their prisoners so immensely? Not at all, they love their society. They want these people, having left prison, not to be fierce and not commit new crimes. They protect society, and do not wipe the pink snot to prisoners.

Their concept consists in the fact that the crime committed by a person is, first of all, a mistake in the work of the state and the indifference of society. Suppose there was violence in the family. The father beat his mother in front of the child or no one called the police, or did not respond to the custody, did not see bruises on the child’s body. At school, teachers were indifferent. Someone sold beer to a little boy, someone sold him drugs. And then the boy eventually arranged a robbery of the bank. He took a million dollars and wounded the guard. It turns out that two victims: the bank was robbed and the guard was injured. And in a decent society, a guard is straight expensive. His life, his leg or arm is very, very expensive.

And so we caught this boy who quickly lowered a million dollars to a prostitute and heroin. Now we will put him in jail. And what's next? He will never give a million a bank and a million security guard in his life. Knowing that he owes two million, he will never work. And what will he do? It is clear that he will return there. Therefore, the state says: damn it, I did not work after you. I will put you in jail so far, but we have two victims who are not at all to blame. I, the state, will pay them the money itself. A special bureau in the Ministry of Justice for working with the victims pays a million to the bank and a million to the guard. All. The issue is closed, the rights of the victims are completely restored. The state calculated and thus recognized its defect in the upbringing of this guy.

But now the guy owes two million to the state. Which says: it means so, man, let's be socialized with us. I am now launching a society in the person of NGOs. And there will be doctors, psychologists, all human rights minced meat. They will deal with you. And your task is to improve, socialize so that you never commit crimes again, get a job, get a family and become a normal member of society. In the meantime, you have to work and pay me, the state.

And now the guy is in prison. He is engaged in teachers, doctors. He comes out. He is given the keys to social housing. They give him a job. He works at a construction site and is obliged, for example, 20% of his salary to give every month to the state. A round dance of human rights defenders continues around him. They give him some mugs, dramaters, make sure that he does not return to his former friends with their previous activities. By the time of liberation, he usually already has a plan than he will do. If the next five years he has not committed a second crime, the state writes off the debt from him. Everything, you are a free person, please don't get there anymore. But if you commit a crime within five years, you will be put in jail again. And so - until you get better.

- Do you have to hold out for five years?

-In different countries differently. Now in Scandinavia the lowest percentage of relapse in the world. With these, as we believe, for some reason, no one else wants to return to prison. We have a terrible prison. At the same time, for some reason, everyone is returning (the level of relapse in crime in 2021 was 60%.-SR) . It is clear that to have such a penitentiary system as in Scandinavia, you need a very, very much money. And for example, a lot of oil and gas, as in Norway.

- Not our case.

- What then to do? Probably, you need to take an example with Germany. Firstly, they have the experience of remaking the former Soviet system, the same as ours. Secondly, their prison infrastructure is as old as ours. There are a lot of old prisons in Germany - like former St. Petersburg crosses, like a Butyrka, like a sailor silence. They somehow cope with this old infrastructure. And this is not worth a lot of money.

We looked at how they do all this. Yes, indeed, not Newton's bead, they wrote, offered Kudrin: let's remove the epaulets from all and give the keys to the prison to the local authorities. There are still many other details: labor legislation, medicine, but the main thing is these two. And there are no special people who walk with a gun along the zone and guard it. I ask in German prisons: "How do all these guards look there?" There are no guards. In principle, now everything is electronic - fences, doors, windows. And if they rebel in their prison, they just call the police. All this is terribly reduced and helps to fight crime. In general, from prison reform, there are only benefits. Firstly, this is a significant savings in public funds. Secondly, immediately an instant effect on reducing crime. And most importantly-well, you can’t live in the 21st century with a prison from the 19th! Make a prison reform, it will be better with human rights, and you, Putin, will immediately enter the pantheon of beautiful people who have committed such an excellent reform. At the end of the 20th century, penitentiary reform was everywhere. In Portugal, there was a wonderful prison reform, they overcame quite a lot of drug addiction. In France there was a large prison reform. Everywhere it was already, we have nothing. Why are you holding on to this system?

In 2018, there was the first scandal with torture in the Yaroslavl region (the prisoner Yevgeny Makarov died of pneumonia in July 2022 - SR) . Actually, our employee made these videos with torture. There was a scandal. And during this scandal, Valentina Ivanovna Matvienko reached the rostrum of the Federation Council and spoke in a human voice. And I just read out a brief concept of our prison reform. My God, how we were all delighted: "Well, now it will begin!" Now there will be prison reform. But soon Putin spoke , very, very sharply. That our prison system is the best in the world, do not touch with your own hands. Hands off. I was terribly surprised. Why? Well, the truth has risen, the reform crossed over. Cheap, good, nice. You will be a hero. Then there were a few more scandals. The last time Putin spoke before Kalashnikov's resignation. And again, Putin said that it was not necessary to change anything, everything is very, very good.

- That is, "torture, and good."

- Yes, and it was, by the way, November 2021, three months before the war. I could not understand why they are so holding on this completely unbearable prison cargo that presses the whole country? Well, there are grandmas, okay, the economic geography is such that you do not know what to occupy the inhabitants of Mordovia who worked in prisons all their lives. But crime! There will be a result of reducing crime immediately. And the laurels are very beautiful. The UN will applaud standing. I could not understand why so.

And when Prigozhin appeared (Evgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Wagner PMC, recruited prisoners to war in Ukraine, then organized an armed march to Moscow from June 23 to 24 and deployed his mercenaries. Two months later, he died in a plane crash under the Tver region. - Wed), I thought: a bitch, how brilliant! .. In a bad sense of the word. He is a black genius, he created a reservoir of endless replenishment of mercenaries. Infinite. Because the Russian prison is one of the worst places on Earth. And from there, they will leave the head with a headlong anywhere, even to war, just to leave prison. So it happened. Moreover, there was also a huge effect there. While Prigogine is collecting prisoners to war, they don’t particularly touch “your civilian boys”. Prigozhin began to pick up prisoners in June, and mobilization was announced only at the end of September, when they had already had graters with the Ministry of Defense there.

And Putin also went exactly along the Stalinist path. This is the disposal of an unnecessary, unnecessary population. We have now said how to fix them, how to teach them, whether we need malarus or plasterers. Why? They can simply be destroyed. And all. And there will be no growth in crime. War is disposal. We say: "Ah, meat storms. Nobody protects them." Of course, it does not protect, they must be disposed of. And these are 22 or 25 thousand prisoners, whom Prigozhin freed and who were in Russia, they should not have returned. They returned, only because Wagner took away the detachments of their thugs from Bakhmut. If he had not quarreled with Shoigu, he would continue to fight, and they would have been flying all the long time. No one assumed that at least one of them would return.

With what ease, without any legitimate grounds, Prigozhin took them out of prisons, how easily Putin signs these secret decrees on pardon, suggests that they thought it all out very much in advance. At least Putin knew that there was a reservoir that was not a pity. There is no need to deal with any prison reform, they will simply be killed. And they will be happy to go killed, skipping, because in prison they will rape the mop. And in war - no.

- It turns out that Putin was originally preparing to fight? Because no one prevented him from engaging in this prison reform in his first vegetarian, the term of government.

- In general, nothing interfered. And in the second term, and in 2018, nothing really interfered. Matvienko is not a girl, she is a very experienced politician, an intriguer. And she went with the reform project as a gift: "And I know, but I know how to change it all." And suddenly he actually yelled at her.

- This recruitment in the colonies showed a completely disgusting attitude towards people as a material resource. Why did the convicts swallow it?

- Vice versa! From prisoners, I have never heard that money was interested in one of them. This is interested in their family or free mercenaries. At first, the prisoners had the main incentive - gaining freedom and the opportunity to start life from scratch, pardon, leave for himself where 20 years, where 10 years, that is, regain life. This is a Russian roulette with very high rates. But the most important thing is that I heard hundreds of times the same argument that you can’t say against it at all: "I need it there." So he sits and tells me that I will go out in two years, so what? There is no home and will not be. There is no family and will not be. There is no work and will not be. In the first year, I will either go to or heroin. Or I will go to jail again. I don’t want this anymore, I want to break this circle. Nobody needs me at large. There is neither a promotion, nor resocialization, and has never been to Russia. The former prisoner initially nobody needs. And here are recruiters: here you are nobody, and there we need mechanics of armored vehicles. This is a falsely understood sense of family and a combat fraternity, male brotherhood, a sense of elbow. They have never heard that they were needed in their lives. And they are ready to give life for this.

- You talked about the fact that thieves in law supported the special operation and allowed Zeaka to go to war. That is, crime and authorities were at the same time. How will this affect society as a whole?

- And this is a statement of the already failed. During Putin’s reign, black (power near the criminals) and red (power from the guard) zone completely disappeared. This concept is actually no longer. As is happening in the zones now. The authorities have several ways to earn money. Firstly, the head of the zone controls industrial production, this is his business. We used to say that the Soviet economy was built by the hands of prisoners, and there is still slave labor. Only not on the national economy, but to a pocket for several people - the head of the zone, his deputy, the prosecutor's office for supervision. Another method of earnings is parole, trade on parole. This is encouragement, they are also sold.

Then, huge fraud in all zones: all repairs are made at the expense of families or prisoners themselves, building materials are bought there endlessly, infinitely buy refrigerators and televisions. They always remain in the zone. But the budget is allocated for this. I really like the scheme in the Novosibirsk region, a few years ago we watched public procurements: they purchased tomato seedlings in August, and in September harvested. Or there is a beautiful scheme with ice cream fish: one zone buys ice cream fish with his head, resells to another zone, where they cut off the head in the fish, passes into the third zone where they cut off the tail and so on. The amount of fish is reduced, and a kilogram of fish is all the time, because some kind of work is invested in it all the time. And most importantly, there was no fish initially. Or, for example, the production of metal utensils in the zones. Have you seen metal dishes on sale so that people buy metal bowls to yourself? Naturally, no. Because in one zone, metal dishes are made and sold to other areas, because prisoners are eaten from metal dishes and they themselves produce all this. And how much this bowl costs, one hundred rubles or five hundred rubles, you and I have no idea. All this is the internship is such, absolutely wonderful. And most importantly, labor violations, when they are at the same rate, for 20 thousand rubles, ten people are arranged to work. And he actually works, one, and receives two thousand rubles a month. So live on them as you want. And this, of course, is a slave labor.

Therefore, even if there are no torture, you will complain. You will write to the prosecutor’s office, tell your lawyers, tell relatives, they will come to come. It is clear that the test is usually its own. And if not? And if you do not agree, then you will be removed and put from there. And if you agreed with the check, you will give them half. Why work then? What is your interest then? Your interest is that no one complains. And there are one and a half thousand people, go to everyone your mouth. Do not close. And you go to the Baltic Committee. You take a bottle, come to the look or thieves. You say: Dear Pahan, can you make sure that no one complains? Of course I can. Who will complain - instantly mop or sharpening in the side. And I am for you mobile phones, drugs. Your common fund will be safe and preserved, you can arrange card games. Or maybe let's stir up the business together? For example, Sberbank’s security service bothers you. That is, there is absolutely mutually beneficial cooperation of criminals and power. But look, the same is the same - Prigozhin and Putin or Shakro young and investigative committee. No wonder Prigozhin said all the time: "Putin. Give me power, I will ensure order." He knows what the blat committee should do: to wet the complainants, that is, the protesters.

By the way, Shakro young (repeatedly convicted “thief in law” Zakhary Kalashov is considered the leader of the criminal world. - SR) was silent for a long time. He is now the main thief, the heir to Grandfather Hassan. All small thieves were against the war . He was silent for a long time, more than six months. And then we saw how we began to release everyone who was connected with the young. And Shakro, the young after that took and made his thieves' run that war is very good.

"Our thieves become power themselves"

- The fact that there are many political prizes now appear, does it somehow affect the atmosphere inside the zone?

- It is incomprehensible. In the meantime, few people reached the colonies, because the investigation and the court go about a year. But in principle, the attitude to political changed, I would say, for the better. Until 2014, the attitude to political prisoners was generally very good. Not so that they were worn in their hands, but with understanding, they were not touched. In 2014, the “Russian Spring” began, and for some reason it went to the prisoners, and most importantly, the jailers. All this euphoria led to the fact that Ukrainians and political prisoners became very bad. Because they ruined this very coveted beautiful Russian world.

With the outbreak of war, there was an understanding that something was wrong here. Firstly, the bosses lost all their earnings, they took from the industrial to the war, only through the war. Secondly, some bald hell came from the mountain and takes from the head of the colony of prisoners without any piece of paper. Not a receipt to you, nothing. Yes, and humiliates, because Prigozhin could not stand, in his difficult biography, all the jailers. He kicked them out of the offices, humiliated them, as he could and most importantly - publicly, with prisoners. It is clear that the jailers began to carefully look at the political prisoners, who were also against it. They suddenly coincided with interests. Therefore, now there are, of course, excesses, but I would say that they are single.

- The zone is a mirror reflection of society, and in society we are somehow waiting for the revolution, because the contradictions accumulate to the impossibility, and all this should once explode. Is it possible to say the same about the zone?

- There are revolutions, there are riots. But so far quietly. The last surge in activity was just connected with Prigozhin’s performance from Rostov to Moscow when the Rostov zone rebelled. The zones along the path of Wagner to Moscow were very excited: now they will come and free, take to them. And then everyone shrugged, calmed down. Another thing is that everything that happens at large affects the zone. And now, at large, we see a bouquet of the bills introduced, which is associated with prisoners. This is the mobilization of prisoners, this is military registration in the zones. Let's see how these laws that are included in the State Duma will affect the zone. But so far in the zone is quiet.

- How realistic now would there be a reform of the FSIN system according to your scheme?

- Zero percent, of course. It is completely clear that the reform of the penitentiary system is needed, first of all, political will. She just will not be.

- And in the case of a change of power?

- Then one hundred percent. Any power will engage in reforms of the correctional system. Any - a crocodile, not a crocodile - anyone will do this.

- Will the current cramped spike of thieves and jailers allow the reform?

- They will adjust to new conditions. The criminal world is in any country, the criminal elite is everywhere. And here I, unfortunately, I have to quote Gleb Zhelov: "The power of the state does not depend on the number of thieves, but on how it copes with them." Italy, is a criminal country? No, she is not a criminal country. Normal European country. There is a Camorra, the Sicilian mafia, the Calabrian mafia, they are engaged in some kind of drug transit, smuggling. The time has passed when the mafia influenced politics. Is there crime in Norway? Of course there is. And in Sweden there is crime, drugs can be bought. You can probably buy a gun. They are probably trying to trade people there. But this does not affect either politics or society. And we affect. Moreover, thieves become power themselves, like Putin.

- But journalists and society about Putin’s connections with crime learned only in recent years ...

- I don’t know how the journalists should have learned about it. But for most marginal people who love Putin, he is also their own. He speaks prison language. We have a country of prison culture. We had every person with a large Russian biography - Pushkin, Dostoevsky, Chernyshevsky. Chekhov did not sit, but he understood that the prison was needed, so he went to Sakhalin himself. Then the galaxy is Lenin, Stalin, Dzerzhinsky. Then the 1930s went: artists, poets. Brodsky, Nobel laureate, sat. Solzhenitsyn, an outstanding dissident, was sitting. Sinyavsky and Daniel, Galanks, Sakharov - please, link. Then a little lull. And now again. It is no coincidence that Anna Akhmatova, when Brodsky’s arrest, said: "What biography is made to our redhead." It still does not come out of a good Russian biography without prison. Here, tell me, please: Vladimir Central, what is the wind?

- Northern.

- You see, any teacher of kindergarten, the librarian will easily continue all these lines. And what are we singing at the table drunk? "Well, you, Freyer, handed it back." We perceive all this as most of Russian culture. Stories about innocent in prison have always been and will be, and innocent in prison were and will be as a result of judicial errors. There have always been errors on politics, it is also in all countries. The main thing is the ability to correct judicial errors and, in fact, the maliciousness of these judicial errors.

And in Russia, a prison is a screening. We are still a prison-centric country, we have everything around us around prisons. Often it is a city -forming factor, these are labor dynasties, all in the world. And he did not sit - not a man, a Russian proverb.