Fatigue from compassion

In the podcast “Advisory Room”, the clinical psychologist Daria Yausheva - about the illusions, who are enemy, friend, and how to save himself

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Vera Chelishcheva. Hi all! This is a podcast "Advisory Room". And this is us, his leading. I am journalist Vera Chelyishcheva.

Zoya Svetova. And I am a journalist Zoya Svetova.

Vera Chelishcheva. The theme of our next release is how not to go crazy with that stream of negative, dramatic and heavy news that we read and hear every day. By “we” I mean primarily those who are interested in what is happening in the country and the world, empathizes, compasses - in general, often misses the news through itself or simply not indifferent. Of course, there is a layer of people (possibly lucky) who live like in a capsule, and psychologically and morally independent of the news agenda and are immersed in their own world. But today we are talking about those who are news and in general atmosphere in the country and the world are covered with a concrete wall. Someone sits on antidepressants, someone on good psychological therapy, someone finds an exit in alcohol. These people are many, these are people of completely different professions, prosperity and positions. How to live, when there is an endless cruelty in the world in the world, and there are less and less hopes. Today, our guest is Daria Yausheva, a clinical psychologist, author of the telegram channel "Psychologist writes ...". Daria, hello.

Daria Yausheva. Hello, I'm glad to be present here.

Vera Chelishcheva. I'll start with the sore. I know that you are just now conducting support group for employees of one of the Israeli NPOs after the unprecedented terrorist act in the country on October 7. Please tell us how you help, what words, what are the main problems and psychological injuries now people in Israel, is it possible to overcome them?

Daria Yausheva. Yes, we are really leading a support group. And this, on the one hand, is very specific for us as psychologists - an Israeli situation. And on the other hand, this is a repetition of the support group that we conducted in the beginning when it was February 24 and when people were about a similar situation - in confusion. And what we encountered is a very similar reaction. But again, I say that in Israel, of course, the story is specific, because people are in an extremely extreme situation.

In principle, the presence of a person in such an emergency is both confusion and someone’s fading, someone, on the contrary, has increased activity and misunderstanding of what to do, sleep disturbance, violation of ideas about the world. That is, it is a very large spectrum of personal manifestations and physiological. And what it was important for us to help people to cope is, firstly, to feel the support, to understand that there is something that you can rely on. Because this situation literally knocking the earth from under the legs and internally destroys what is called basic illusions. This is such a psychological term: these are the basic illusions that help a person feel stable. This is an illusion of own mortality, the illusion of justice of the world. These are some ideas about yourself that are destroyed at this moment.

And it was very important for us that a person felt the ground under his feet and feels that he was not alone. These two things that the group helped to do.

People had very similar reactions after February 24th. But again, in Israel, people witnessed the most terrible events, and they are inside these events. One of the most difficult things in the jurisdiction of such a group is when a person, speaking of his experiences, suddenly disappears, because he sounded anxiety and he needs to run into shelter. And this moment - it, on the one hand, is for us as a call: we need to present this situation to other participants, to save them at this moment. And on the other hand, these are our experiences for human security.

Now, of course, people have adapted as much as possible. Because this is an abnormal situation. It is difficult to adapt to the end, but now the movement is more towards the sensation of association with others, interactions, communication, returning to the usual group, where you can be yourself, where you can ask complex questions that will not pori. And it is very important for people to find answers to questions and voice them, even if they seem socially unacceptable. Of course, I cannot give examples, because there are ethical rules of the group.

Zoya Svetova. Daria, but I have such a question. Look, not all people are ready to go to a psychologist. Some people have such a prejudice that I myself can handle it, I do not need either a psychologist or a psychiatrist. You talked about Israel - it just happened. But on February 24, 2022 - this was already a year and a half ago. And people have a psychological state, it seems to accumulate. This is a state of anxiety, powerlessness, a state of depression, because people always read the news about what is happening in a neighboring country. Some people who have children (I mean call boys) are afraid that they can take them to participate in their. In addition, we always read news about how people return with his former prisoners, how they kill ordinary people who are met in their village or in their city. That is, many, many things are happening. Then we observe, living in Russia, what is happening in Israel.

This negativity, this violence, these endless military conflicts - they accumulate. And how people can cope with this if they are not ready to go to a psychologist if they are not ready to engage in group psychotherapy that you are engaged in. What specific tips could you give people so that they would not go crazy and do not fall into crazy depression if they do not want to accept antidepressants, go to a psychologist? So that they did not sleep, as Vera said what can be done? One, two, three, four, five tips? Do not read the news or what?

Daria Yausheva. I wouldn’t talk about not reading the news now - it seems to me that this advice will be originally unrealized, because people need to read the news and it is important to test reality. What happens when a person does not test reality, we approximately understand. Therefore, no, here we are talking about hygiene of news consumption. And partly, when you asked a question, you began to give an answer to it. You talked about fatigue.

In the case of any fatigue - from work, from parental burnout - it is important to give a person rest. This does not mean turning away from the problem, this does not mean to stop reading the news at all, it just means to pause.

And I would go here through questions: what prevents a person from taking this break, this pause? It is unlikely that you would invite me for a simple answer to the question.

It is important to understand what exactly the person prevents the person from taking these breaks. Someone can have a prevailing pattern, just a habit-during the day a certain number of times go online and read the news. And I do not realize, this is such an automatic pattern, a habit. And, accordingly, the answer here is this: to change this habit, to supplement it with other actions, to negotiate with you about temporal intervals during which I read this news. This method.

If we are talking about another reason, say, about certain ideas, about yourself, then it seems to me that there may be a root here. A person can say to himself: "If I do not read, then I turn away from this." This in cognitive-behavioral therapy is called intermediate beliefs, which are formed as "if, then ...". If I do not read the news, then I am a bad person, soulless. And here is the issue of a compassionate attitude towards oneself, literally a conversation with yourself. After all, we have a conversation every day. And now you say to yourself: “No, if I give myself a pause, I give myself a vacation, I do not turn away from this, this is still my value. This is still important to me. I'm still worried about what is happening around. But I am a living person, and rest is important to me. ”

It seems to me that in this way you can agree. There is, of course, the third situation when the news is part of the work. I think that journalists are just familiar with this like no one. This is when reading news is literally part of the work process. And here is the issue of dividing work and personal space.

Vera Chelishcheva. I just wanted to ask the topic in the continuation of the topic: when such burnout has long come, and a person cannot get out of it on his own - just a black pit and does not work. And as Zoya said, some go to a psychologist, some simply do not even have the strength to get up to someone to sign up. And there is no desire, and the person does not believe in anything. Here's what to do when complete burnout?

Daria Yausheva. Well, when it is very complete burnout, I would still recommend contacting a specialist. You know, there is a sign of a serious disorder: this is when it interferes with everyday functioning and completing tasks. That is, it is reflected in relations, and at work, and on other aspects of life. This is already a specialist, this is an indication for pharmacotherapy.

But if we are talking about history, when a person can still cope himself, and feels that he has a resource to led, then let's go through existential psychology. Why? Because existential psychology was formed approximately in a similar context. It was formed during the Second World War and after the Second World War, and, which is characteristic, Austrian and German psychologists. So, Victor Frankl is a psychologist who is the first to remember when they talk about their existential psychology. He said

That it is important for a person to find the meaning in life at this time, that is, to find something that he can rely on himself.

It can be the contemplation of something beautiful, distracting. This may be what is currently correlating with the mood. It can be some kind of music with which you can correlate. And, by the way, now a lot has become a lot-I don’t know whether you have noticed or not-good music both in rap and in rock space, texts with which you can correlate and feel that I am not the only one, that there are people who feel and think the same as me. This is an important story.

You can find such meanings for yourself through creativity in very different formats. It can be work, work processes. It can be charity. These can be specific things that can be done with your hands to turn off thoughts and switch to physical work. The people with whom I work-they now began to get carried away with ceramics and draw, someone began to knit at a difficult moment. That is, everything that helps to switch the head to physiology, and physiology helps, because it gives a person the state "I cope, I do something."

There is another way. This is such a purely existential formulation:

"Take a position in relation to what is happening." That is, to determine the values ​​within myself: what is important to me now what is significant for me. And here they use the term “hierarchy of values”, because there should be a lot of these values ​​so that there is a balance in life.

Probably, the coaching tool “Balance Wheel” is well suited here. This is when a circle is drawn on paper, then it is divided into sectors, and these sectors are signed. And each sector is that activity, that side of life that is present. At first, these sectors are determined, the name is given to them, and then it is further evaluated how this or that sector of my life is filled. It is clear that these are always subjective assessments, but this still gives a clear story. You can literally see on paper, and in which direction it is important for me to supplement, say, does my family or my relationship or health suffer now? You’re not a little care about my health, is it time for me to go through Check Up, for example?

Any lists help to structure thought very well. Psychologists love lists. And any lists - lists of goals, object lists - all this helps to structure thinking, launch it along the constructive path. In principle, these are the main important things.

Even physical activity is that all psychologists always recommend. Simple walk. Literally you need to take yourself, take out the handle to take a walk, invite yourself to a date.

This is also an interesting approach - to imagine that you are the person who can invite yourself to a date? Yes, but here it is very important to allow this.

Zoya Svetova. That is, you want to say, to invite yourself to dates? That is, to come up with a trip to the museum, the theater and invent that you are not going alone, but with someone?

Daria Yausheva. We very often wait for someone to call us somewhere. And now in a situation where people also parted, and there are not always close friends nearby, it is completely sad. And here you can invite yourself.

Vera Chelishcheva. Yes, it seems to me that it is not even necessary to both the museum and the theater. But just really sometimes you need to invite yourself to go outside and just take a walk.

Zoya Svetova. And I wanted to ask, Daria, you said about charity. I believe that this is right when people are in such a serious condition - they need to come up with an activity to help others. Now, for example, in Moscow and in other large cities there are different charitable foundations that help, for example, refugees from Ukraine. And things give there, and volunteers help them. For example, Lida Moniava has there, Svetlana Gannushkina (yes, I am obliged to say that Svetlana Gannushkina, the head of the Fund for Refugees Assistance, was recognized as a foreign agent, and the organization was also recognized as a foreign agent). Will it be for a person who is in such as Vera said a black pit and at the stage of burnout - will there be communication with people who have experienced even greater grief, a person to worsen the situation? Or is there another mechanism, when you understand that someone is even worse than you, and then you begin to forget about yourself somehow? How does this work?

Daria Yausheva. You know, it is very interesting here, because sociologists have investigated this. They investigated what is called "fatigue from compassion." And they examined another thing, which they called the "narcotic media dysfunction." This is when there are too many messages about something, and a person begins to feel the internal suspension of pain. I will now explain why I'm talking about it. You just started talking about the answer to the question that sociologists found.

What to do when there is too much suffering around a person. If he feels that I can no longer. We must switch to actions. When you are just a news consumer, this is a passive situation, and it can give birth to inner powerlessness, the feeling that I can not do anything.

But when you really begin to do something when you are not just talking about any problem, about some kind of misfortune, but they also say that you can help something here, and even if you give some successful case (a showing situation when help has a result), then a person begins to enter into a state of “I can something”.

And this is very important for the internal state. And this is a good prevention of future burnout precisely in the context of complex news.

Therefore, I think that we all watched how this happened in the case of various marathons, including marathons in favor of political prisoners and so on. When people were joyfully involved in this and eventually gathered a lot of money. Why? Because this is a very desired state for a person-"I can do something." If you return to the topic of charity, then, firstly, there is an action here, and secondly, here is an individual moment-“What is the resource for me?”

At one time, I studied this topic very deeply, because I did a lot of charity. It is important to correlate your own capabilities with challenges and understand: this is what I can and what I am not able to do. Suppose that if I, in contact with personal stories, with specific people, I will collapse myself, then, probably, this is not a very good option. Because in the end I can not help at all. But if I can finish, if I can take things, and let it not be a direct contact, but this is help, then why not? I don't think it will destroy it.

Zoya Svetova. That is, if a person understands that he does not need to come in person with some other people's troubles, that this can aggravate his situation, then you can simply help Step Step, that is, gradually? For example, write letters political prisoners. This is also an important story. And political prisoners are very waiting for these letters. And it seems to me that a person thus also pronounces some of his stories in these letters. Well, in some such allegorical, maybe a way. And if you say your condition, you gradually get rid of it. Is it like this or not? In general, you need to write diaries, as, for example, Lyudmila Ulitskaya taught us when we talked to her? A person should generally describe his condition, what do you think?

Daria Yausheva. Yes, of course. And there are even a separate direction, and there are methods that just say that this helps to structure and constructively re -question the traumatic events, including relieve internal stress. These are always very good ways. And this is also a way to create such a narrative about yourself, an understanding of yourself, an idea of ​​yourself, to go out, as they say, into a metapay. This position of the observer very often helps. In another way, this is also called self-leadership.

About letters by political prisoners - it seems to me that those who wrote them are faced with another thing. This turns out to be a suddenly very supportive story when the answer comes. И люди удивляются (я знаю это по себе).

Удивительным оказывается то, насколько в людях, которые находятся в тяжелых условиях, огромная внутренняя сила духа. И это становится поддерживающим для того, кто пишет политзаключенным эти письма. И это очень хороший, с одной стороны, способ поддержать связи между людьми и понять, что ты можешь протянуть руку и твою руку пожмут в ответ.

Но с другой стороны… Я в свое время читала работу про психические защиты людей в тоталитарном обществе. Это была работа про человека, который был в Советском Союзе, внутри репрессий находился. И очень многим людям тогда недоставало того, что есть сегодня у нас, — это интернет, это способ видеть примеры других людей. Примеры того, как другие люди справляются, как они могут адаптироваться. И здесь, мне кажется, очень интересный момент, когда ты можешь напрямую увидеть, как человек в трудных условиях справляется, какую он силу духа проявляет. И еще, мне кажется, это очень хорошо подходит под терминологию посттравматического роста.

Зоя Светов а . Yes, thanks. Очень точно вы сказали, потому что всегда, когда получаешь ответы от политзаключенных, например, от того же Владимира Кара-Мурзы, который признан тоже, кстати, иностранным агентом. Я вот когда получала ответы на свои письма, мне всегда было ужасно стыдно за то, что я впадаю в уныние, в плохое настроение, в депрессию, а он, сидя в тюрьме, отвечал и дарил надежду. В его письмах всегда надежда на то, что все переменится. И это очень большое утешение. И действительно поэтому я еще лишний раз хочу посоветовать всем переписываться с политзаключенными.

Vera Chelishcheva. А у меня последний вопрос, Дарья. Вы упоминали, что многие уехали с февраля 2022 года. Есть же такая тема печальная, грустная, как тема одиночества. Это не обязательно личное одиночество, хотя и оно тоже. А в принципе, когда мало людей твоих взглядов. Насколько тема одиночества человека накладывает отпечаток на то, когда он не справляется с ситуацией? И какой может быть выход? Человек чувствует себя одиноким, он по тем или иным причинам не может изменить свое одиночество или куда-то уехать, или вообще что-то изменить. Вот это же отдельный пласт такой проблемы.

Дарья Яушева. Да, это, мне кажется, очень большая проблема. Причем она, кстати, возникла даже не сейчас, она начала формироваться еще до, еще в период пандемии об этом говорили. И вы знаете, что интересно, государство это фиксирует. У АСИ — Агентства стратегических инициатив, я имею в виду — было недавно как раз представление какого-то доклада, где одиночество было выделено как стоящая на первом месте проблема и вызывающая, как следствие, определенные психологические и психические расстройства. Знаете, что интересно, я наблюдаю такую историю:

люди, которые остаются внутри, ощущают себя изолированными в большей степени, чем люди, которые уезжают.

И я думаю, что, с одной стороны, это связано с тем, что люди, которые уезжают, начинают заниматься своей жизнью, активно решают какие-то вопросы, включаются в жизнь, им приходится присваивать новое пространство, выстраивать новые истории, связанные с повседневностью, у них широкое познавательное поле, им нужно вообще узнать, где они находятся и что и как устроено. А люди, которые находятся внутри, они остаются в прежней жизненной ситуации. Но при этом на них влияют и тревога, и страх, связанный с возможностью самовыражаться и проявлять себя. И это все очень сильно способствует, я бы сказала, даже не одиночеству, а именно самоизоляции.

И вот в этот момент, мне кажется, важно себя поймать. Поймать вот это ощущение, что не изолируем ли мы себя сами? Если мне начинает не хватать других людей, то каким образом я могу их вокруг себя найти и обнаружить? Во-первых, обнаружить, что они есть, во-вторых, делать шаги, потому что это же тоже такая история — круг. Если я чувствую, что я один, я никого не приглашаю, допустим, я ни с кем не встречаюсь, я не выхожу на связь. И вот здесь, может быть, даже стоит делать какие-то противоположные шаги этому внутреннему состоянию — желанию самоизолироваться, чтобы не войти в худшее состояние.

И очень важно напоминать себе, что даже когда мне кажется, что я один, я просто могу не видеть, что вокруг есть другие люди, которые чувствуют то же самое, которые с тем же самым сталкиваются.

Я ездила в Армению на концерт Noize MC ( признан российскими властями иностранным агентом. — Ред. ), и я познакомилась там с большим количеством людей, которые приехали из России. Они приехали из России в Ереван, встретились там друг с другом и почувствовали, что они не одни. Вот это хороший момент — понять, что я на самом деле не один, я просто могу не видеть людей рядом. Плюс есть очень много хороших способов в Сети — комментарии, общение, знакомства друг с другом. То есть таких вариантов много.

Я не знаю, замечали ли вы, после конфликта в оппозиции пошел такой запрос на объединение и запрос на то, чтобы почувствовать друг друга рядом, почувствовать, что я не один.

Zoya Svetova. Спасибо большое, Дарья. На самом деле очень важно многое из того, что вы сказали.

Дарья Яушева. А можно я еще один маленький момент добавлю? Как мне кажется, о нем тоже важно сказать. Это, опять же, франколовская история. Хороший способ справляться со своим состоянием — это юмор. Вот чувство юмора — это то, про что в свое время одна из исследовательниц, которая прошла концлагерь, сказала: «Если бы мы не смеялись и не шутили, мы бы умерли». И это тоже та история, которую важно не забывать. В принципе, люди сейчас шутят, и это помогает почувствовать контроль над ситуацией. And it's very cool.

Разрешайте себе смеяться, иронизировать. Это очень хороший способ.

Vera Chelishcheva. Это действительно очень хороший совет. The ingenious.

Zoya Svetova. Да, Дарья, спасибо вам большое. Мне очень понравились некоторые ваши советы. Например, очень мне понравился совет приглашать самого себя на свидание, нужно чувство юмора обязательно включать в свою жизнь, не чувствовать себя одиноким и посмотреть по сторонам: может быть, вы действительно чего-то не замечаете.

В общем, мне кажется, все ваши советы очень важны, потому что они открывают некую грань мира, которую мы, когда погружаемся в свое горе, в свою беду и вообще в общую ситуацию, как будто бы не замечаем. А мир — он действительно велик, и в нем есть разные грани. И вот вы, психологи, их открываете. Thank you very much. А вы слушали наш подкаст «Совещательная комната».

Мы впервые в этом подкасте говорили с психологом, и этим психологом была Дарья Яушева. И мы говорили об очень важной теме — о том, как нам всем жить в этом мире войн, жестокости, безнадеги. How to deal with this? И я всех призываю послушать то, что советует Дарья. Наверное, многие психологи то же самое посоветовали бы. Но у Дарьи как-то это получается очень легко, просто, ненавязчиво, и эти советы вполне можно выполнять. А лучше всего, конечно, если сам не справляешься, обратиться к психологу. Мне кажется, что это на самом деле очень помогает. А вы слушайте наш подкаст на Apple Podcasts, на YouTube, пишите нам, пожалуйста, комментарии, ставьте лайки. Hi all!