How do the US represent the end of the war? What will happen to Ukraine if Trump becomes president? And what does Washington plan to do with China?

We talked about this with Victoria Nuland

In March 2024, Victoria Nuland left the post of Deputy Secretary of State of the United States. At the beginning of her career, from 1991 to 1993, Nuland worked at the American embassy in Moscow and was responsible for relations with the government of Boris Yeltsin. Then, already as deputy Secretary of State for European and Eurasia, she came to the Maidan in Kyiv and publicly supported the protesters - for example, distributed cookies to them (in Russia these “cookies of the State Department” became a popular meme). From the first days of the Russian-Ukrainian war, Nuland helped to develop the US response to the invasion of the Russian Army. US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken emphasized that Nuland's efforts “were indispensable for confrontation” of Russian aggression. The special correspondent of Medusa Lilia Yapparova spoke to Victoria Nuland.

- From the outside it may seem that for many American and European politicians, the war has already turned into a bureaucratic routine - into background circumstances, which no one wants to spend money on a change.

- I do not agree. Just two weeks ago, Democrats and Republicans, including more than a hundred members of the House of Representatives of the US Congress, voted together to provide Ukraine with a package of assistance for 61 billion dollars (and this is the money, I note, American taxpayers). Moreover, in the pre -election period, when voting could very easily become extremely “party”. And all this happened despite the fact that the candidate [to the president] from the Republicans [Donald Trump] urged until the last minute to go against such a decision.

This happened because the Americans understand: if you allow the international hooligan like Putin just “bite off” a piece of someone else's country, then he will come for NATO, and in addition will give a bad example to autocrats around the world.

I am enthusiastic that we received this money. Now Ukrainians need, of course, to use them competently. Putin increases the Russian military -industrial complex with a crazy pace, spending all the money not on schools and healthcare, but on war. We, in turn, need to help Ukrainians strengthen their defense industry - and stimulate our own.

- Over the years of civil service, you have proven yourself as a supporter of tough policy against Putin's Russia. You supported the supply of defensive weapons to Kyiv, have been to the Maidan. The Kremlin interpreted this course unequivocally: "The States deprived us of a chance ... to build relations with Ukraine." What do you think of such an assessment?

- I do not think that Putin reacted so sensitively to each of our steps - just all his aspirations extend far beyond the boundaries of Russia. Strong, independent and European Ukraine seems to him some kind of curse-for reasons that we admit, it is difficult to understand.

[Preserving relations with Moscow, pro-Western and] prosperous Kyiv at some point could become a way to the West-a profitable way-for Russia itself. But Putin set his own interests above all (saying that these are the interests of all Russians). And in his view “good” Ukraine is a servile Ukraine, which returned to the 20th century, to subordination to the USSR.

Ukraine was engaged in their business, the United States was engaged in its own - including in the [East European] region. And then Putin invaded someone else's country twice. I think that no one would have changed his intentions. Unless we simply “fed” this country to him - but we, of course, were not going to do this. Because Kyiv would only be the first piece.

- Putin is sure that he had the right to such a reaction - and once rhetorically transferred this situation closer to the American borders, saying: “[they] began to create an anti -Russian bridgehead in Ukraine. Well, we will try, we will begin to create an anti-American bridgehead somewhere there on borders with the United States, in Mexico. Do you understand what will happen? "

- Putin turned away Kyiv from Moscow with his own hands. Let's remember: most Ukrainians, from 60 to 70 percent, sympathized with Russia even immediately after the Maidan. And then Putin captures Crimea and sends his “green men” to Donetsk and Lugansk. How can you not take an anti -Russian position when your country invades several sides when your youth is dying at the front?

If the United States created something similar in Mexico-which we, of course, are not going to do! - then the Mexicans at once would become radically configured anti -American. Regardless of whether Putin would have tried to build an “anti -American bridgehead” there.

- Many expertsbelieve that even taking into account the last packet of assistance, Ukraine receives less than it is necessary for the war with Russia on an equal footing. Why can't allies give Kyiv as much as they need?

- Over the past three years, the United States has provided Kyiv a lot of military and economic support. Special funds have been created for reconstruction [of critical infrastructure], for energy support of the country, for humanitarian assistance. Our special representative [on the economic recovery of Ukraine Penny Okotzker] is working on the revival of Ukrainian cities - so that people can return home so that export can revive.

But while we, our European and Asian allies give Ukraine more and more money, Putin creates more and more damage. According to some estimates, at the front he now dies a thousand Russian men per day - just in order to advance a couple of kilometers and take several villages.

So yes, the needs of Ukraine are growing, but, I think, we will continue to help her - including new and more long -range weapons that you will see in work at the front this summer.

“The coordination of this assistance package caused fierce debates in the Congress: the Republicans demanded from Joe Biden a more clear plan for the participation of the United States in the war, and some even stated that the further financing of the Armed Forces“ only extends the conflict ”. What does the ultimate goal of assistance to Ukraine look like in the framework of the American strategy?

-I repeat: more than half of the Republican congressmen-if you take into account both the Senate and the House of Representatives-voted for helping Ukraine. Because they understand bets not only for Kyiv, but also for the United States.

And whether to proceed to the discussion of the world in general and when to cross is the decision of Ukraine. While the Putin approach to negotiations looks like this: "What is mine, and what yours is to discuss." Therefore, the goal of the American strategy now is so to prepare Kyiv in a military, economic and political sense, so that it can start negotiating from a position of strength. So that Putin and his military leaders understand that this is a losing war for them - and it's time to come to an agreement. In their own interests.

- That is, the ultimate goal of the American strategy no longer includes the restoration of the borders of Ukraine as of 1991?

- No. All wars end in negotiations, and this is the task of Ukraine to solve what its goals are in territories. But right now, Kyiv is not strong enough to begin to negotiate. We would like Putin to leave every square kilometer of Ukrainian land. But so far - until Ukraine has become strong enough - we do not know what is possible in this regard.

- The election of the US President was already in November - and Donald Trump may win, who promises to end the war in 24 hours.

- When they tried to resolve the situation for the first time, during the Minsk process, Putin was negotiating unscrupulous, turning them into a platform in order to start an even larger invasion. So if the ceasefire happened through [promised to Trump] 24 hours, I would be in the place of people from [street] Bankova [in Kyiv, where the Office of Zelensky is located] would be seriously concerned-and this time it will be? Putin is really ready for territorial concessions now? And she would constantly be afraid that the Kremlin simply pauses to give the troops to rest - and six days later, months or years to return and try to squeeze even more land.

We need agreements that will retain a strong, independent, democratic, economically viable, European and supported by Ukrainians Ukraine - we need guarantees that Putin will not try to crank the same again.

Therefore, half of the package, recently approved by Congress, is intended for long -term investments in the Ukrainian army. So that, if the pause still arises, Putin understands: the Armed Forces during this time will only become stronger. But not vice versa.

- What will happen to Trump? In a situation where the United States urges the “Axis of Evil” Russia - Iran - China, its usual isolationist position does not look very advantageous.

- I am concerned not so much by his isolationism as the tendency to indulge other autocrats and world leaders with dictatorial manners. For many years he sympathized with Putin - what if Trump is elected and he decides to leave Ukraine alone with Russia? As a result, we will receive Putin, who will continue his campaign west - now to the territory of NATO. Trump will endanger all of us and our allies.

- Meanwhile, Russia announced Vladimir Zelensky on the wanted list - in the Kremlin, it seems, are not at all ready to negotiate with the current Ukrainian authorities.

- I myself have been in a kind of wanted for several years. I don’t know what this means for Zelensky in a practical sense - I do not think that he plans ... I won’t continue.

In any case, I do not think that Putin is ready for honest negotiations. He wants to see at the head of Ukraine a leader like [Victor] Yanukovych, who would be ready to subordinate Kyiv to the whims of Moscow: to subject his own economy to plunder, and to provide the territory for Russian military bases. Zelensky is not such a person.

- Some believe that in the last six months in the West, Kiev actually pushed to change the position regarding peaceful negotiations .

- Kyiv constantly continues to develop the formula of the world that Zelensky proposed more than a year ago: sovereignty, territorial integrity, the withdrawal of Russian troops, reparations, and the return of children - all these things.

At some [dedicated to this] meetings, as in Davos, Zelensky collects up to 50-60 states, not only American allies, but also the largest non-block countries: India, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia. And they all support the principles developed by Kiev.

Zelensky was incredibly effective in his attempts to remind the world how the fair settlement of this war would look like. Putin will not be allowed to subordinate Ukraine.

-The deputy head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Sergey Ryabkov describes Russian-American relations as in a “coma state”. How bad is everything?

- You know, everything is not only bad, but simply sad. When I was very young, in the 1990s, we had regular, weekly contacts with Russians from all regions, all political views and beliefs. From the liberals to the inveterate ... I, you know, live live [Vladimir] Zhirinovsky! We could travel.

But for his five terms in power, Putin managed to consistently destroy these communication channels. Those Russians with whom we still communicate are not allowed to negotiate, nor report anything substantial.

During the administration of [Barack], Obama Putin wanted the United States to participate in the Minsk process, and even appointed a permanent negotiator, whom we met five or six times-and we had constructive conversations with this person! And now there was no one left who could talk to us. Communication is more reminiscent of a dialogue with a telephone operator: even my long-standing contacts, with whom I have been familiar with 20-30 years, are just transmitted to me by calls. And they repeat public theses. This is incredibly sad.

The only thing we have achieved by the beginning of a full -scale invasion of some results was a transaction on the release of Britney Grainer. I hope we can continue this work: in Russia, the Americans are illegally holding, including the journalist The Wall Street Journal Evan Gershkovich . For our repeated exchanging proposals in the last two and a half years, Russia is responding poorly: it is not ready to seriously conduct these negotiations.

- At what stage were there negotiations on Alexei Navalny? FBK claims that he was killed in prison because he was on the verge of exchange, however, according to The Wall Street Journal, by the time of his death there was neither the final US-German agreement, nor any proposal of the Russian Federation.

- I do not want to go into these details, because our paramount task is to maintain the opportunity to continue working upon returning home to the Americans still remaining in Russia.

However, I do not think that the death of Navalny was the result of negotiations on the exchange: Putin did not need to kill him in order to prevent issuing - he could simply say no. I think Putin simply did not like what Navalny advice gave Russian voters on the eve of the presidential election - I did not want to feel the presence of a competitor on the eve of the re -election. We will never know the details.

- Who in Washington is conducting such exchange negotiations?

- All higher leadership is involved. Conversations are at a variety of levels: we use both state security channels and intelligence channels. But no one [except Putin] on the Russian side seems to be authorized to conclude such transactions. Nevertheless, we continue to look for the desired exchange formula - whether Russia, Iran, China or North Korea. Yes, Russia, unfortunately, put itself in one row with these states.

- Do the United States support contacts with the Presidential Administration - at least unofficial?

- We have such channels. In Russia, they know how to contact us if they are finally ready to talk seriously.

- Another topic that is widely discussed in Russia is Western sanctions. A lot of criticizes, which was launched after the start of a full -scale invasion of a full -scale invasion, and she completely deployed some Russians to Putin.

- We are always ready to listen to the advice of those Russians who know how to make sanctions more effective. But these difficulties arose because Putin does not care about his own citizens. It was his policy that covered the Russians with access to travel and training abroad. He sacrifices the fate of Russian children-whether it is 20-year-old soldiers who die at the front, or schoolchildren who do not receive a first-class education.

As you know, the first wave of sanctions was developed to cut Russia from the banking sector and put it on the oligarchs (so that, in turn, they affect Putin). The problem with any sanctions is that the country subjected to him always finds ways to bypass - therefore, such measures must be constantly updated. When the import of European laptops and washing machines in the UAE, Turkey and India sharply jumped (from there, of course, they transported all this to Russia), we drew the attention of these three states, where the goods are eventually being transported in their territory.

Over the past six months, defense-industrial cooperation between Russia and China has also vanned . Beijing promised that he would not transfer the weapon to Moscow, so now he simply sends everything necessary to Russia in order to collect weapons already on the spot as a Lego designer. And this strategy is very effective for both countries: Russia has no longer anyone to trade, except, perhaps, Iran and North Korea. And the Chinese found that they can stimulate their economy by expanding the defense industry. Such a symbiosis.

We cannot suspend the contacts of every Chinese company with each Russian - there are too many of them, sometimes they change the names. Instead, we are trying to block funding for them - we are saying to Chinese banks: “If you want to maintain foreign trade relations with us, Europe and Asian democracies, do not finance the supply of components, microelectronics, nitro -cellulose and missile engines to Russia.” Let's see if it turns out.

- So far, China is clearly not going to renounce Russia - moreover, Xi Jinping went with visits to Europe, which calls not to follow the USA and take a “pragmatic” position.

- China claims that it is neutral in this conflict - and then stealthily supports Russian military needs. I think we absolutely need to speak directly with China - that it will not work to sit on two chairs. You either support Russia, sacrifice your reputation and foreign trade-or become truly neutral.

Europe, which is an incredibly valuable trading partner for China, is more and more disappointed in his position. I think European and American pressure on Beijing will continue - and they will not be able to sit on two chairs. Им придется решать.

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Talked by Lilia Yapparova