"It will be very difficult to recover from this"

T-Invariant took an anonymous interview from an American researcher about why the actions of the mask and DOGE can put an end to the US leadership in science

National Institutes of Health ( NIH ) controlled by the US Department of Health and Social Services is a key institution of American science. After Donald Trump, like a number of other departments, came to power, were subjected to personnel cleaning and pressure from the Department of Efficiency of Public Administration (Department of Government Efficiency, Doge), which is headed by Ilon Musk. Now the US Senate must approve the new director of NIH - Jaya Bhattachary. What are the employees of the organization from this decision, with what historical periods the current reforms can be compared and why DOGE plans threaten the development of advanced science, in an interview with T-Invariant , the head of the NIH laboratories said in an anonymity. "Medusa" publishes material with minor editors.

- Why do you answer questions anonymously?

- The fact is that the order was received from the leadership of the department prohibiting all kinds of contacts from the media to a special announcement.

- And earlier?

- Previously, formally, it was also necessary to obtain permission. But since previously contacts with the press did not include political statements, no one followed these permits. Now the situation has changed, and we were made to understand that any speeches expressing disagreement with current politics will be fraught with consequences. And I do not want to provoke such consequences. I would prefer to decide for myself whether I want to work for this government or not.

- When did you and your colleagues at your institute feel that the changes were coming?

- Very quickly. About a week after Trump’s inauguration, at the end of January, absolutely all employees of federal organizations and services from the new mask structure received a proposal for voluntary dismissal with material compensation.

- Including all the employees of your institute?

- Almost yes, [the proposal received] all employees in all federal institutions, with the exception of interns. Those who are in purely temporary positions do not relate to federal civil servants. And then, as we know, in the end, more than 77 thousand people took advantage of this proposal throughout the government.

- Was there were people who quit on this proposal?

- I have no doubt that they were. But there was no in my laboratory.

- Now the news has come that the former Director of NIH Francis Collins , one of the symbols of your organization, resigned from the post of head of the laboratory ...

- And he is not alone, I must say. He is the most famous of these people. But there are a number of others that occupied high positions in NIH. For example, one person who several times and for quite many years was the acting director. And some other leaders of the directions also retired.

-Is this somehow connected with the reform of the institute?

- None of them indicates the reason. And formally they have the right to this, they are already for 70, although not slightly. It is clear that in another situation they would prefer to continue to work. But no one needs to explain anything, the real reasons are clear to everyone.

- For several days, NCBI resources were not available - this is the US National Center for Biotechnological Information of the United States. Databases, such as Pubmed , Genbank and Blast , did not open from various countries, including Europe.

- I have already heard about this. And I'm surprised. Everything is available to me, but I go from a government computer. If they did not open in other countries, this is a very serious problem, I hope that just technical.

- That is, there were no messages about this?

- Not the slightest. I can assume that this is due to the dismissal of some people. There are a number of employees who entered work for us less than a year or two ago. And they were fired first. Some of them were just able to restore, because it turned out that without them these databases would not work.

- And how is the interaction of the leadership of the institute with DOGE now? What does it look like?

- The question is very delicate. It’s even a little difficult to answer anonymously. Representatives of this DOGE itself are deployed to different state institutions into fairly high positions. And, in particular, to the Department of Health too.

- Have you personally met with them?

- No, only the leadership, as well as some of these dismissed people, the question of the restoration of which was considered. The meetings themselves are online, no one goes anywhere. Conversations are held in the form of some interviews. As far as I could understand, a person [from DOGE], who was sent to the Health Department, is generally quite competent. He at least knows what NIH does, and even NCBI, and what Pubmed is.

- Is it known what specific claims are presented to the work of the Department of your institute by DOGE?

-It is known, rather, not from DOGE, but from the part of [[Robert] Kennedy Jr. ] -the new Minister of Health. He believes that everything was done incorrectly with vaccines, and in general everything was done incorrectly during the pandemic. I suspect that Doge shares this point of view. But this is not the main thing, because everyone is presented to everyone: Ilon wants to eat and gobble as many as possible to the federal government.

- The official claim is that you spend too much money? Or do not spend money on what you need to spend on? These are different things.

- Not really, these are things connected. The claim is made in general to all working to the government. Specifically, no one at this stage is versed in detail. For example, these same people, hired less than two years ago, quit in a lip. Just because they are not protected, they cannot go to court about this.

There are no proceedings on whether they work well or bad, and whether they work on important projects or on meaningless,. Moreover, in a particularly cynical form, a notice was sent that their productivity did not correspond to the needs of the department. Although the work of many of them was evaluated by the most higher in the last certification. A certain cynical visibility of the assessment of the work is made. Whether this work is important or necessary, is not considered now. This will be considered in the course of further work on reduction, when whole units will seem to be already reduced.

-Were there any signals by Kennedy, a mask or administration of Trump, that during the reform on the market, a large number of specialists who are supposed to be used ... where?

- Absolutely not. People are fired, and then their business, where to go.

- How does the leadership of your institute behave now? What is broadcast to you?

- Well, the leadership, of course, is extremely careful. All sorts of sedative messages are sent regarding what a wonderful institution we have and how it will remain wonderful under any circumstances and so on. It sounds empty.

- And how did the management react to a more specific DOGE requirement to list five achievements in the last week, describe what you did?

- To this reaction in different parts of the government was very different. Some, for example, the Ministry of Justice, resolutely refused to do this at all. Other, less powerful agencies made their employees to fulfill it. Our department and some more took an intermediate position. That is, they said that they do not insist that anyone answers it, but if there is a desire, you can answer.

- Have you answered?

- No.

- Do you know the colleagues who answered?

- I know some who did it, but how much it answered in NIH, unfortunately, I do not know. It would be interesting to know. About 40%responded throughout the government. Now the second such letter was received.

- Do you need to list your achievements in a week again?

- Yes. And moreover, this letter indicates that it will now be weekly.

- Will you answer?

- Only by direct order.

- You worked in the USSR. Does it remind you of something in style?

- (laughs) . How to say? Together, this, of course, resembles a lot. The cleaning itself, at least, in my experience, is unprecedented. Oddly enough, in the Soviet Union there was no such thing in my life. And the whole situation, of course, reminds, this is no secret, Germany in the 1930s .

- But there were similar things in the history of the United States? For example, during the time of McCartism ?

- Well, this, of course, is an analogy that comes to mind in the first place. It was a little wrong there. There was an undisguised ideological persecution. This is not here. As, in general, and ideology.

- The main idea is the struggle for effectiveness, right?

- That's exactly what is called. But in fact, I would say that such a corporate mentality is being imposed in the spirit of not the best corporations - those who work in strict regimes.

-Do you have any intra-corporate resistance to this?

- It is rather not, except for one moment. The fact is that temporary workers, postdrods, are united into the trade union. And their Trade Union (trade union - approx. Medusa ) is quite active, he is trying to protect them about any infringement of rights. And appeals to the court. Well, this is, as it were, his mission - to protect people and in this sense to give opposition. It is difficult to dismiss them. But the fact is that the people who are in this Union are not the main target. Because these are not people who occupy noticeable state positions.

- How much do you feel protected?

- I feel poorly protected. It will be difficult to dismiss me directly, since there is generally no mechanism for the dismissal of laboratories who have a permanent position, but to do this during the reorganization, during the liquidation of the units-here you can dismiss anyone. Another thing is that personally this question is not madly worried. I can retire at any moment and find the opportunity to engage in science at a private university. But the fate of my laboratory and my employees really bothers me very much.

- If DOGE officer addressed you and asked: “Describe us the main risks of the reform that we started”, what would you answer?

-Firstly, I would explain to them that they get rid of federal employees without any reasonable plan. They simply destroy what is easier to destroy, what is fraught with less problems with the courts, and this can lead to the complete destruction of all this apparatus.

Secondly, I would explain what is regarding science itself. This is a rather serious question, because the point is not even the program in which I work, the NIH internal program. She, of course, is insanely sorry, but employees working directly on the government are involved in it, and this is relatively few. But the fact is that they affect the most serious way and grant programs, trying to save money completely insignificant on a state scale. And this already radically destroys science. If their plans are implemented, and will not be revised for several months, then the US scientific leadership will come to an end. It is so under threat. China breathes in the back.

-Are there any specific statements from Doge about how much they want to reduce, for example, the budget of the Health Department? Or reduce the number of employees?

- Yes, although these numbers are changing all the time. It is said that they want to reduce 15–20% of employees. Although somewhere half of these people have already left themselves or were fired from NIH. As for money, they call the amount, but these numbers change so quickly! And, in particular, those who call Musk are so high that it is pointless to talk about it. Mask, probably, somehow calculates the effect of its actions, which is spilled into the amount of completely unrealistic. I have no reason to think that he does not know or cannot immediately find out how much the NIH budget is - these are completely open and affordable data. But for his reasons, he simply calls some huge numbers out of his head.

What is specifically known

As it became known to The Nature , NIH stops the effect of hundreds of existing research grants. According to the publication, this will primarily affect studies affecting LGBT+, gender identity and Dei, since they are no longer priority. Grants allocated for financing universities in China, and grants associated with climate change are also under the close attention of NIH.

- And let's go from the other side. Imagine that, on the contrary, DOGE employees are addressing you with the question: “We need to optimize and make the work of your institute more efficiently. What do we need to do? "

- I will not talk to these people. I will not give them any advice. We already know that, no matter how well it looks at first, all this will end disgusting. This organization has already completely discredited itself. But, if reasonable people in the government asked me about this, if people such as, for example, Albert Mountains , were engaged in increasing the effectiveness of the government, I would answer that two things were needed. The first is to revise the administrative structure, because it has a lot of all kinds of ballast. I note that the only action of the new administration of Trump, with which I do not agree with, but which does not cause disgust and indignation, is the liquidation of Diversity Equity and Inclusion (Dei) offices. Passion for this issue has gone very far in previous years. Is it necessary to destroy them completely - this is a difficult question, but they definitely had to be kept under control. There are other administrative structures that look superfluous.

Further it is possible, if we are talking about NIH, to analyze its actual scientific activity. There are ineffective laboratories in any scientific institution. We also have them. I want to say that the reduction on about the same scale they announce about can be carried out in some rational way. But today we do not even see attempts to act like that.

- What are you seeing the most obvious consequences of their actions?

- Well, there may be different scenarios, or using the expression of the mask that he used in his sentence voluntary dismissal , a fork on the road (fork in the room). The fork is such, in my opinion: if they realize everything that they want, then, in general, throughout science in our country (and not only in ours, it will affect science around the world), a severe blow will be inflicted. Scientists from different countries who work with us have already felt it.

But the fork is that their plans may not be realized, because there will be a rollback at the level of departments, at the level of the same NIH. As it was already with their requirements to report on work for a week. So far it has not been realized. Let's see if it is realized further.

- Imagine that they did exactly what they were going, and in the way they act now. But four years later, America chooses a democrat president. How to quickly restore work?

“I think it's not fast at all.” It will be very difficult to recover from this. Moreover, in terms of competition in the international arena, which China actually wins even without a mask with Trump, without any DOGE.

-Do you see any mechanisms in American society and in the American state that can stop this skating rink?

- I see only one mechanism that will not stop immediately, but can brake strongly. This is the election to the Congress of 2026. If the Republicans lose both chambers, the situation will change a lot and the current government may not be up to it. I do not see any other effective mechanisms.

- There is a formal justification of this reform carried out by DOGE - an increase in the efficiency of the work of state institutions, the state government. And what do they say about the hidden reasons for this?

- All this is largely in the field of psychology. People came with the ideology and ethics of wild capitalism. The benefit is their ideal as a whole. A specific material gain for specific people from these actions can be small or no. But they simply act within the framework of such a paradigm. They hate everyone who works for the government. Well, especially scientists, a highly educated part of people who are mostly supported by democrats.

-Do you know how the leadership of your institute with the new Minister of Health Kennedy Jr. is known?

- In a strange way for all this time that Kennedy took office, we did not receive a single message from him. Perhaps this will happen when the new Director of NIH Jai Bhattacharya, a candidate proposed by Trump, as I understand it, will be approved.

- What do they say about him?

“I know very little about him.” But it is already clear that this is a person who was engaged in Public Health (public healthcare - approx. Medusa ), and a healthcare economy to a large extent. He, if I am not mistaken, even two phd: one in Public Health, and the other literally in economics. Well, he is a professor in Stanford. In general, this requires a certain intellectual level, so this purpose does not look as crazy as in the case of Kennedy Jr. Правда, как мы знаем, у него тоже антивакцинная позиция, но не на безумных основаниях, а на каких-то экономических, когда говорится, что нужно вакцинировать избранные группы. Более я ничего конкретного не знаю, поскольку, в отличие от Кеннеди, он в громких публичных заявлениях не замечен.

— Как психологически ощущается обстановка в институте?

— Конечно, есть тревога, беспокойство. Некоторые люди, находящиеся на временных позициях, совершенно понятным и обоснованным образом ускорили свои поиски работы. В целом мне трудно оценить ситуацию: ведь я, за некоторым исключением, общаюсь в пределах своей лаборатории. И, может, в этом есть какая-то и моя заслуга, что в моей лаборатории обстановка нормальная.

Беседовала Ольга Орлова для T-invariant