“Putin is either a label, a program, or a religion”

Yuriy Dud interviewed Pavel Gubarev, the “people’s governor” of the Donetsk region. They discussed the war and conspiracy theories about Russian power for four hours

Journalist Yuri Dud released on his YouTube channel a four-hour interview with Pavel Gubarev, one of the leaders of pro-Russian activists in Donbass in 2014. During the protests that preceded the armed conflict in Donbass and the full-scale Russian-Ukrainian war, Gubarev declared himself the “people's governor” of the Donetsk region, and was then responsible for recruiting into the forces of the self-proclaimed DPR, the People's Militia. After the start of the great war between Russia and Ukraine, Gubarev participated in hostilities, and also joined Igor Strelkov’s (Girkin) “Club of Angry Patriots,” whose members support the war but criticize the Russian authorities. Gubarev went out to protests after Strelkov’s arrest, but when he announced his intention to participate in the 2024 presidential elections, he publicly criticized him. In an interview with Dudu, the former “people’s governor” spoke about the Kremlin’s participation in the 2014 events in Donbass, his attitude towards the big Russian-Ukrainian war, and also about who, in his opinion, really rules Russia. Here are some quotes from this interview with minor editing.

About the Russian-Ukrainian war

This is not really a war, it is of a negotiated nature. There are no specific clear goals. If Ukraine has a goal and the truth is: “We were attacked, we will return our territories.” Our SVO goals have not yet been announced: what we want, what we are doing, what is all this for and where should we win. This is not stated.

We have been fighting for five years, and the army is not being revived. And what is happening at the front makes us think that this is not a war, this is a sacrifice. The war has one organizer ( Gubarev did not specify who exactly - note from Meduza ). Both in Kyiv and in the Kremlin they somehow manage this process; the war is completely controlled. It is impossible to analyze, you can only watch it as a performance that has directors. But here the blood is real, and the people - Ukrainian and Russian - are paying a bloody price for it.

About Putin and Russia

Russia is not a completely sovereign state and in some aspects is under external control. Putin is either a label on this entire structure called Russia, or it’s a systemic program, or maybe it’s some kind of religion, because someone scolds Putin, someone admires him. In a state of war, I would not personalize it, but simply call it a colonial system, where Putin is simply an element, a manager. I don’t know who Putin’s boss is. You need to ask him this.

Putin is some kind of management utility in the operating system. How can she make a decision ( on a full-scale war with Ukraine )? The decision is made by the person who sits at the computer and runs these programs. And it was launched by the operator ( who he is, Gubarev could not explain )… This is no Putin, God forbid. <…>

You can't speak out against Putin. The country is at war and people are imprisoned for speaking out against Putin. So let's not talk about him. Moreover, I explained that I do not think that we have a personalist dictatorship. Russia is a crypto-colony whose control centers are located mainly abroad. <...> The metropolis is London, but this is not the country of Great Britain, but some group of people associated with the British aristocracy - old money and bankers. And Putin is the resident general.

About Igor Strelkov (Girkin)

Who is Igor Strelkov

Igor Strelkov participated in the conflict in Donbass in 2014 and the capture of the city of Slavyansk. He called himself the man who pulled the “trigger of war” in Ukraine. After the start of a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Strelkov supported the war, but criticized the Russian leadership for, in his opinion, insufficiently active actions.

A court in the Netherlands in November 2022sentenced Strelkov in absentia to life imprisonment, finding him guilty in the case of the crash of a Malaysian Boeing in the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014. According to the prosecution, Strelkov requested from Russia the supply of a Buk air defense system, which was subsequently used to shoot down the plane. The crash killed 298 people.

In July 2023, Strelkov was detained, and in January 2024 he was sentenced to four years in prison in the case of calls for extremism (Part 2 of Article 280 of the Criminal Code). The reason for the persecution was two posts in Strelkov’s telegram channel about Crimea and payments to military personnel from the self-proclaimed DPR.

After Strelkov’s arrest in 2023, Pavel Gubarev was detained near the Meshchansky Court building in Moscow.

A post criticizing Girkin after he announced his decision to run for president—I didn’t change my shoes or jump off. The first thing I did [after Girkin’s arrest] was organize a rally; I am the only person who was repressed at the protests for Strelkov’s freedom. And his ambitions... He didn’t tell me anything about it. If he had told me, I would have immediately shaken his hand and said: “Igor Ivanovich, I’m sorry. Practice [yourself]. I don’t play such gambles.”

Well, what kind of president? You need to raise a billion dollars so that there are people with this money behind you so that you can play these games. No one would mess with him. This is an old, tired man who fought, with an interesting biography, smart, positive. I'm glad I got to know him. But what I wrote about him... I didn't have to do it because he's in prison. But I did this not because I needed to publicly renounce, but because it hurt.

About Alexei Navalny

Navalny is a Ukrainian politician who for some reason acted in Russia. It's very simple. Here is the question of Crimea - it floated in this issue. He is a brave man, obviously, but he is a Ukrainian politician, and his sponsor [Mikhail] Fridman is a Ukrainian oligarch.

About the Malaysian Boeing

When Girkin said that the militia did not shoot down the Boeing, this is absolutely true. Among the defendants, Girkin is a leftist. The militia did not have Buks. If there was one, I would know, because I am the head of the mobilization department. In this story I declare the following: that I have nothing to testify to except what I have already said; I am sure that Girkin’s words that the militia did not shoot down the Boeing are true. I have nothing more to add to this question.

About the “Russian Spring” and the Kremlin’s participation in the beginning of the war in Donbass

[Strelkov’s] detachment was created in Crimea. The main Russian official who openly supported our entire protest financially, resourcefully, and administratively is Sergei Aksenov . Money was coming [from Crimea], the Crimean detachment [Strelkov] came from there, they took weapons there. Did anyone miss them? Of course they did. Did the Kremlin know? Of course they did.

The shadow entry of Russian troops 100% allowed supporters of the self-proclaimed LPR and DPR to fight off the Ukrainian army. We would have been crushed. No, well, we probably would have fought. But things would be really bad.