Culinary multiculturalism

We are publishing a transcript of a public discussion on the topic “Culinary Multiculturalism” with Professor of the Sorbonne, President of the French Geographical Society, President of the Commission on French Gastronomic Culture Jean -Robert Pitte, held on January 23, 2012 . The discussion took place within the framework of the Russian-French cycle “Mutating Reality” .

Jean-Robert Piet's interlocutors were:

• Vladimir Kolosov , Vice-President of the International Geographical Union, Doctor of Geographical Sciences, Head of the Laboratory of Geopolitical Research at the Institute of Geography of the Russian Academy of Sciences, professor
• Alexander Filin , president of the Russian Guild of Chefs

Discussion organizers:

• Presidential Center B.N. Yeltsin
• Embassy of France, Book Department and French Institute in Moscow
• Franco-Russian Research Center
• "Polit.ru"

Boris Dolgin

Boris Dolgin: Good evening, dear colleagues! I apologize for the slight delay. We are starting another public discussion from the “Mutating Reality” series, a joint project of the French center, the French embassy, ​​the Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin center and Polit.ru, a project dedicated to the most vibrant, most changing areas of life that require discussion from different positions. We have already had conversations on migration issues , there was a conversation on historical politics at the junction of Russia, Ukraine and Poland. And our conversation today is devoted to topics that seem to be closer to everyone’s life, and, on the other hand, no less tied to the problem of culture, tied to some kind of intercultural influence, questions about the social status of certain practices of our everyday life. Today we are talking about the globalization of gastronomy, we conventionally called it “Culinary Multiculturalism”, it is clear that this is a half-joke, but I think what lies behind this joke will become clear today. Our guest today is Jean-Robert Pitt, our French guest, professor at the Sorbonne, former lecturer at the Sorbonne, head of the French Geographical Society, head of the Association of French Gastronomy, and as discussants we invited and are very glad to see here his colleague in the field of geography Vladimir Kolosov - and his, let’s say, not a colleague, but at the same time a specialist from the field we will talk about today, Alexander Filin, head of the Russian Guild of Chefs, we are very glad to see him today too. Accordingly, our order will be as follows. First, a speech from our French guest. Then speeches by our Russian guests, maybe some kind of exchange within our table. And then questions, some comments from those present, they have already started asking us questions on Polit.ru, we always give the participants of our events the opportunity to ask questions in advance. But, naturally, priority will be given to those present in the hall. A transcript of what is happening will be on Polit.ru. Now there is a live broadcast, I think different countries are watching us. And the video recording, already edited, will also be on Polit.ru. Well, I'm glad to give the floor to our French guest, please.

Jean-Robert Pitt: Thank you very much, first of all, for hosting me today. Happy to be in this gastronomic place tonight. And the topic that we have jointly chosen for our discussion is globalization in the field of nutrition, its benefits and, perhaps, risks, and the controversy that this area causes today. Among other functions, in recent years I have been involved in transmitting to UNESCO the request of the French government so that French gastronomy be recognized as part of the cultural heritage of humanity. I prepared this with a number of participants from various circles, from fine dining restaurateurs to caterers, agricultural producers, writers, journalists, intellectuals, historians, sociologists, geographers who are interested in the issue of nutrition. Initially, when we started working together, it was in 2007, various French ministries that were interested in the problem of nutrition, agriculture, culture, health, they said that gastronomy is not part of culture, it’s funny to talk about it. And there is no reason to ask UNESCO for this. We asked the opinion of experts from UNESCO, whose headquarters are in Paris. The first reaction was absolutely negative: “No, no. This is no longer a culture. France wants to take advantage of this for economic, tourist purposes, to promote its wines, its sausages, its hams, its restaurants. Gastronomic tourism.” That is, in no way does this concern the UNESCO cultural heritage, it is rather traditional costumes, folklore dancing, singing, some skills, crafts, lace, embroidery, embroidery. That is, one cannot say that folk art or some traditional crafts are not included in the cultural heritage. UNESCO was invented, the idea itself arose because the states of Western Europe, they have many monuments and some nature reserves that have already received the appropriate status, but also to involve African countries and countries of South America, which did not have so many such reserves and cultural monuments. That is, to give them the opportunity to be accepted as part of a high culture recognized internationally. Therefore, French gastronomy seemed to them something too elitist from an economic and tourist point of view. As you understand, many cultural specialists are convinced that culture and gastronomy cannot go together and that this sphere is not creative enough. We fought for three years - and we succeeded, working with ministries and the French government, exerting pressure in political and cultural circles, involving deputies and senators, left and right took part in this and did a lot so that we could say: " Yes, gastronomy is part of French culture, French identity, originality. Eating well is a way of declaring that I am truly French." The problem that arose at that moment was that, of course, there is haute cuisine, high-quality, creative, but in general the French don’t cook much at home, they buy a lot of frozen food in supermarkets, they say we don’t have time to cook , so during the week they eat haphazardly. As a last resort, on the weekends they cook something, and those who have money go to a good restaurant. But it must be said that indeed the folk cuisine of France is in decline. Economic growth in France after World War II brought with it this decline in home cooking. But on weekends, women agree to spend more time in the kitchen, men also learned to cook and even kicked their wives out of the kitchen - but only on weekends, and not during the week, of course. That is, they try to do something on the weekends, but even when once or twice a month you cook in the kitchen, unfortunately, I must say, for some reason the culinary quality at home is also lost, while high-level restaurants are very creative, but lost something so folk, popular in this cuisine. Therefore, if they didn’t speak French at home, but rather English, and if they spoke French in theaters, that is, in some moments relating to social life, one might even forget how to speak French. Therefore, one of those who worked next to me suggested taking advantage of the situation to tell the French: “You have a cultural heritage recognized abroad! Therefore, please return to the kitchen, start preparing soup at home again in the evening, do not buy frozen ones, briquettes these are for soup, make your own soups! It's much tastier. Better make mashed potatoes at home, it will be cheaper and tastier than these dehydrated flakes that can be prepared in a few minutes, so get your lost cooking skills back." We developed this for UNESCO as a bit of a wake-up call. As I made inquiries, I know that they continue to cook in Russia - so much the better. Those who work a lot, buy ready-made meals early in the morning and late at night, or go to a restaurant and don’t cook anymore, you need to pay attention to this, because when the family stops cooking, skills are lost. Children lose their sense of taste, they lose the taste of ready-made original things. They lose their sensory relationship with food, because food needs to be prepared with the heart. A child who sees how his parents cook with pleasure wants to eat it, because he sees how happy his parents are at the same time. When he does not see how his parents cook, he loses the habit that food, a meal, is a very important sociocultural moment of the meeting, this must be treated carefully, because in the modern world, for example, in China, people are currently losing sight of an important and an essential element in the transmission of culture from generation to generation. Of course, the way of life has changed, we need to find some means to adapt to these changes and continue to transform the act of nutrition into a cultural act. The definition of gastronomic culture that can be given here is not only haute cuisine, which costs a lot of money, time, and technical means; This is everyday food, which should be gastronomic in nature. Because even cooking borscht really must be a thoughtful act, depending on tastes, on family recipes that have been improved, that have changed. It should express who you really are. The French writer Brillat-Savarin did not write much; he wrote two books in his life. In 1885 he wrote The Physiology of Taste, which is a great book with a lot of funny stuff in it, although there's a lot of philosophy in it. He says: "Tell me what you eat and I will tell you who you are." Someone who eats every day at McDonald's, Kentucky Fry Chicken, who drinks Coca-Cola with meals and industrial beer every day, it's like someone listening to the same CD every day, the same thing, the same sounds every day. Anyone who listens to the same music every day goes crazy. It's the same with nutrition. If you eat only industrial products, semi-finished products that have a stereotypical taste, you lose something essential not only in the pleasure of the act of eating itself, in surprise. You also lose the deep meaning of this act of eating. This is just the absorption of the product: vitamins, proteins, glycines, fats. Like food given to fish in an aquarium or pigs. The food tastes the same. The powder you pour into your aquarium every day is the same thing. This is not very serious, because the culture of fish is not very developed, but I think even fish suffer from this. But someone who eats the same thing every day, who has very few dishes, is someone who impoverishes himself. This is the one who is losing his culture. The way he eats reflects on the rest of his being, on his philosophy, the way he thinks, communicates with people, works. A person who becomes addicted leads a repetitive life. What we tried to emphasize in our dossier, which we sent to UNESCO, is that any meal, even inexpensive and very inexpensive food, should be a moment of creativity and surprise. Let's be surprised with every sip, with every meal, with every cup of tea. Let's go beyond stereotypes. Of course, all the peoples of the Earth have developed a certain food identity, over centuries, millennia, that was based on local products, because transporting products took a lot of time. People ate what they could catch, hunt, pick up from the ground, or pick. If we are in a wheat civilization, in Russia, Ukraine, in the north, it’s buckwheat porridge, oats, and in the south it’s grains. These are geographical boundaries. And based on these foods, an entire food culture was created. Cereals, wheat, and other crops are the core of our cuisine, the core of our civilization and partly religion. Drinks too. Here we are in a civilization of, for example, beer, because there are a lot of cereals here, people make beer and vodka in Russia. Russia became a Christian country and adopted the Christian religion, which came from the shores of the Mediterranean. The wine came, and first there was vodka. At first, only elite people, aristocrats drank wine, but now wine is spreading. That is, borders are dissolved, cultures are mixed. We are present at the process of migration of cultural traditions. For example, let's take pepper. Peppers don't grow in Europe. But in European cuisine we use pepper. Now there is more of it. Previously, it was an exotic product; it traveled along trade routes for a long time; we traded pepper with the Arabs. There were flows of goods from the Middle East, and these were elite goods. When we look at Mediterranean recipes, we see that a lot of spices are used, in particular pepper, because they allowed food to be stored longer and were an outward sign of wealth because they were expensive. And wine is the same. Its consumption spread little by little to the Scandinavian countries, to Russia, during the Middle Ages, because wine was also considered an outward sign of a rich life and was a characteristic of the religious affiliation of the Christian world. The transport system and infrastructure developed in the Middle Ages; in the 18th and 19th centuries, trains and regular transportation by sea appeared. All this contributed to the fact that exchanges intensified, and rare products, very expensive, became cheaper, and we saw after the Second World War that many goods, a lot of food raw materials ended up in Western Europe, as well as in the USA, in Japan, in all countries that have developed rapidly. During the Soviet era, the country was so large, huge distances, different patterns of agricultural production in different regions. In central Russia it’s rye and potatoes, but don’t forget, potatoes came from America. There were goods, raw materials, fruits, vegetables that came from the south. Rice from Asia, wine from the Caucasus. The entire Soviet Union was represented in your kitchen. Now the Soviet Union no longer exists, but Russia is opening up to the world and receiving goods and raw materials from other countries.

Jean-Robert Pitt

Now, if we walk through a market in Russia even in winter, we see that there are cucumbers and tomatoes on the shelves - something that was not there before. And at reasonable prices. That is, there is now a risk that various pickled and salted goods, such as cucumbers, are disappearing, something that has been a characteristic product for Russia and Eastern European countries for a long time. You even make sauerkraut. Marinades and pickling are a way to preserve food and raw materials during the winter. We have this too, Japan has this, the Germanic tribes, the Chinese also make sauerkraut, pickled cabbage, the Koreans make a lot of pickles, for example kim chi, cabbage made with a lot of pepper because it allows you to use less salt - When you put a lot of pepper, you don't need a lot of salt. Now you don’t even need it, you can get fruits and vegetables even in winter. Now salted and pickled foods are disappearing from our diet. What was a sign of the soul of a Russian person, you cannot feel like a real Russian if you do not eat sauerkraut and pickles. Now you are switching to Israeli cucumbers, tomatoes from Greece, beans come from Africa, and you are losing something of your Russian identity, that is, we are present at the process, this is not a threat, a danger... What remains is traditional food, which has been present in Russia for centuries, millennia, but you still risk losing the specifics of nutrition, diet, which distinguished Russian identity, distinguished a special geographical space. I'll touch on one more point, and then we'll move on to the discussion. What happened before? Did civilization refuse foreign products? Not really. No government could ban McDonald's. I think if we have children, I think we give them money, they go to McDonald's, the first day they like it, the second day they like it a little less. But if you give them money every day for McDonald's, eventually they will get tired of it and want home-cooked food. Remember, as a child you could eat a whole jar of jam, but when you eat the whole jar, you have such a disgust for it that you simply cannot see it. Of course, there is no need to ban food like McDonald's. Fighting globalization is stupid. You need to use culinary exchanges to change your cooking habits. For example, I love dishes made with coconut. We don't have this, it comes from Africa, from Polynesia. This is good, it expands our diet, but we will try to preserve traditional, indigenous foods. For many reasons, I think it's very good when we preserve regional, culinary differences, we don't close ourselves off in our own cocoon. We exchange this with the world - when you, for example, go as a tourist to France, and if you only visit McDonald's here, I think the result will not be very interesting. In France you have to eat foie gras and, for example, veal blanquette with sauce, and if we become the same, then why travel? We will continue to visit each other, try each other's cuisine. Not only, of course, the kitchen is important. Language differences are important, it is important to learn the language and culture of other peoples. If we reduce nutrition to a single recipe, it will only benefit large global enterprises like McDonald's. For example, McDonald's has 20 thousand restaurants around the world, a hundred countries, more than a million jobs, 40 million servings of food are sold daily - not only in America, of course. This benefits American agriculture, and maybe someone in Ukraine also benefits. Maybe someone wins in France, where cereals are produced. Thanks to investments from abroad, we receive low prices for raw materials, which are exactly what are used in such cuisine. This also benefits cucumber and tomato producers, for example in Spain, where prices are very low. After that, these fruits and vegetables are distributed all over the world. From an economic point of view, this is an absurd decision; it is killing agriculture in poor countries. For example, agriculture in countries with difficult climates is doomed because production costs in difficult geographical and climatic conditions are much higher. It is necessary to try to maintain diversity in the production of agricultural products and raw materials. It is necessary to exchange these goods, it is necessary to preserve this diversity of geographical conditions, because now, taking into account sustainable development projects, transporting raw materials over vast distances leads to environmental pollution. And if you work on the basis of local products and raw materials, for example, we have a very expensive restaurant in Paris, they offer a special menu where all the raw materials, all the products are produced within a radius of no further than 50 kilometers from the point where this restaurant is located. This is a very original solution, and visitors see that very good bacon is produced near Paris, very good cheeses, fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, and champignons are grown. This, of course, in general, is a curious menu, but it shows: we have such a movement. Now in many regions, restaurateurs are trying to buy products and raw materials at their markets; they have some farms that supply them with products. In the USA, such a movement to produce food locally also exists. This is very interesting in economic terms, in terms of gastronomy. The last point is the cultural aspect of the cuisine. Since the 30s of the 19th century, we have noticed that the spread of certain products and food raw materials led to the decline of gastronomy and cuisine in various regions. Cordonsky (Russian origin) in the 30s of the 20th century advocated local cuisine, the use of local products, and this movement became very popular in France - to produce on your own land. Previously, everything related to the earth was a little downgraded. Now eating goods from your region, your own land has become prestigious. When, for example, you can choose not only a dish, but also a wine, and now they have their own so-called registered trademarks. And on the basis of such local goods and raw materials, it is possible to promote the development of agriculture. For example, we have such a retailer Carrefour, but it doesn’t exist in Russia yet. This is a chain of hypermarkets, they sell goods under the general thematic name “My France”. A reflection of France, these goods are a little more expensive than ordinary dishes, ordinary foods. But this is very popular, especially among conservative French people. Vladimir Kolosov, a geographer, responded to this. We, geographers, advocate that landscapes, cultures, cultural realizations, food remain characteristics of our homeland. And this allows us to maintain diversity and maintain the benefits of globalization. Let's take wine - I think this is an interesting example. Wine, good, high-quality wine, began to be produced in Europe, in particular in France. We have done a lot for the production and distribution of wines such as Bourbon, cognac, and champagne. And this wine production know-how also exists in Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and throughout Western Europe. Little by little this know-how was exported to North America, the USA, South America, Chile, Argentina, and South Africa. Already from the 19th century to Australia, New Zealand, and also to Russia, because yesterday I drank good Russian wine, tasted good Russian wine. Now there are already high-quality goods, including wine, in Russia. This winemaking is already widespread in China; it is the fifth largest wine producer in the world. I wonder what is better: producing different wines in each region or trying to have some standard products? Where some vine is typical, Riesling, Chardonnay. Have uniform alcohol content ranges: 11, 12, 13 degrees. This issue is causing widespread debate in France. Economists say: it is necessary to make wines based on special varieties of wine. Individual varieties, if a person does not know any brands, brands, it is easier for him to buy wine made from a separate grape variety. He will know what he is buying, so he needs to write on the bottle: “Here is such and such a grape variety.” Economists act like you did in the Soviet Union: if you plan something in the economy, then everything will be great. We have adherents of such a special state plan for winemaking in France. But it seems to me that the future of winemaking is diversity, diversity and exchange. Wine lovers, I think there are those among you who love wine, and you know the brands, the main brands. Wouldn't you rather just have wine made from one grape variety? If you were an opera lover, would you only have one CD of one opera in your home, and would you listen to it all the time? It's better to have 20 different compacts of the same opera. This is one theater singing, this is another troupe singing. This helps maintain variety. The same can be said about wine. If a person is a wine lover, then he wants to have a lot of variety in his cellar. Thousands and thousands of brands, brands. But there are also years of production and harvest. For example, I bought a Bordeaux from 1990, I drank it in 1995 - one taste. After another 5 years, the taste changed again. And 15 years later, in 2005, it was an excellent wine, that is, the wine had matured, aged, and acquired some new qualities. Drinking wine is not drunkenness. This is an action that gives you some emotions, very pleasant sensations. For example, in France 2003 was a very hot year - and the wines of this year were very strong, tart, but of very good quality. Now, in 2012, when we come to a restaurant, we order wines from 2003, they are very tasty. If you are drinking a third year wine, close your eyes and try to determine which region it is from. You close your eyes and remember the third year, remember how hot it was, and return to this time. It’s very pleasant to drink wine, you feel the joy of life when you eat your grandmother’s pies, this is also a return to childhood, it is a unique taste, but in no restaurant you will find the pies that your grandmother made. Essentially, you are eating your grandmother, cleaning up her legacy. I'll leave it at that. Have your own grandmother , we have a joke in France on the topic of anthropophagy: “Do you love your grandmother?” - the boy answers yes . “Well, take yourself another piece.” Kitchen is the sublimation of anthropophagy. If you eat a dish that someone close to you made to you, beloved person, you are essentially cleaning yourself up to him, this is a very important point, and for the progress of humanity we eat three times a day. And it is necessary that each meal, even if you do not have much time, gives you pleasure, gives you feel like someone is close to you so that you can share with him. Eat a piece from my plate. It's better than engaging in war. There is one story - in 1815, France was at war with all the countries of Europe, including, and with Russia, there was a great congress in Vienna, which was supposed to settle the problem of the division of Europe. And at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the representative of France said: "Mister Minister, do you need many diplomats to keep records?" Talleyrand said: "No, I I don’t need diplomats, give me cooks, because a diplomat needs more saucepans than diplomatic instructions.” And Talleyrand admitted that during the entire Vienna Congress he himself cooked, served the best wines, and even organized a European cheese competition, in which France won. This saved several parts of French territory that neighbors wanted to take. That is, gastronomy was able to save part of our space. Thank you for your attention, I will now allow my colleagues to react to what I have just said.

Boris Dolgin: Thank you very much, I will next give the floor to my Russian colleague. The only thing I want to draw attention to is, in addition to the actual gastronomic aspects, consider the cultural aspects. Quite important, interesting, connected with the concept of identity and with the indirectly touched upon question of dynamics, how the appearance of pepper at some points was an object of prestigious consumption. How does the cultural canon change in this sense, and how does something else change in connection with this?

Vladimir Kolosov

Vladimir Kolosov: I would like to begin with the fact that in my memory there have been profound, truly revolutionary changes in public tastes and practices regarding nutrition and tastes. I remember Soviet restaurants. People went there to dance, have fun with loud music that drowned out any conversation, and have a good drink. The choice of dishes was extremely primitive: usually most restaurants offered so-called pan-European cuisine, that is, nothing, average and not related to any country or region. There were, of course, especially in Moscow, a few restaurants serving national cuisine from the Soviet republics and some socialist countries. They were very popular. Everyone remembers the huge queues at the Uzbekistan, Beijing or Aragvi restaurants. Such “exotic” dishes, such as pizza, seemed to be an attribute of an unknown foreign life, a plot from the program “Film Travelers Club”. I remember how in my house on Leninsky Prospekt a nondescript cafe suddenly changed its sign to the unusual name “Pizzeria”. This was during the era of the first cooperatives. Out of curiosity, I went down to try this extraordinary dish - pizza, which I had heard about so many times. I was deeply disappointed: pizza was a bun topped with a little grated cheese and topped with unprocessed tomato paste. All this cost as much as 3 rubles 50 kopecks. However, life moved forward quickly. After a little browsing on the websites of Moscow restaurants, I now counted at least more than thirty national cuisines presented in Moscow restaurants, and many restaurants have several cuisines at the same time. These changes come at a cost.

Of course, cooking, as my colleague Professor Pitt said, is part of the general culture, and it is not a direct function of education, of course. I had to meet many colleagues who achieved a lot in their field, very educated people, humanists, who were absolutely indifferent to the kitchen, especially among their Anglo-Saxon colleagues. As the pinnacle of world culinary art, they were quite happy with fish and chips. Whether this dish was prepared well or poorly, it was the pinnacle of their aspirations. I also had to read a book by an English journalist who worked in Paris for 10 years as a correspondent for a leading English newspaper, who wrote a caustic book about my beloved France, where he sarcastically addressed the French’s passion for haute cuisine, their ability to appreciate different tastes and discuss them. I absolutely disagree with this.

Globalization leads to two changes in cultural practices. On the one hand, we observe what my colleague Jean-Robert spoke about - the erasing of differences. McDonald's, which is everywhere, is a kind of rapper. I, like many of my colleagues, had to experience a certain temptation: finding ourselves in a country whose language we did not know and, moreover, did not know its cuisine, did not know how to choose something worthwhile in a local restaurant, we were tempted to go to McDonald's is so familiar, so familiar, where everything is clear. All you have to do is click on the picture of a Big Mac and get a very specific dish. McDonald's is often cited as one of the most visible manifestations of globalization and the worldwide universalization of tastes. However, it seems to me that globalization, oddly enough, has to a certain extent contributed to the spread of national cuisines. It is enough to go to any shopping center in Moscow to see that there are Japanese, Caucasian and Oriental fast food restaurants, which to some extent promote the cuisines of different peoples of the world and different tastes in a form accessible to the widest public. Another thing is that, of course, this is often profaned. But, nevertheless, this awakens interest in the culture of other countries.

On the other hand, there is another tendency that opposes this uniformization - inevitable and even to some extent necessary, as evidenced by the example of McDonald's I cited. The awakening of identities - even, perhaps, not so much national as regional. Of course, there is something in common in Russian or French cuisine. But there is also a wealth of regional cuisines. In Russia, thank God, there is a growing interest in regional cuisines, in the cuisines of the peoples of Russia. To the cuisines of the Don, Kuban, and northern Russia. This is very cool, this is a manifestation of those tendencies in the development of identity that Professor Pitt spoke about. I recently - maybe too late - discovered Belevsky marshmallow, a rather expensive product. Belev is a small regional center in the Tula region. A box of 175 grams costs more than 200 rubles, but this is a real natural product that has little in common with the industrial marshmallow to which we are accustomed. The revival of this traditional product also means the revival of an integral part of the identity of the city of Belev and the Tula region. It's great that such products are appearing again. This is the same phenomenon as traditional fairs, city and regional festivals, local holidays, which are now held almost everywhere. They are naturally accompanied by a revival of interest in regional and local cuisine.

Another phenomenon that should be noted in this regard is the phenomenon of diasporas. Diaspora is a special term, and not every national minority is a diaspora. National restaurants are one of the mechanisms for reproducing the identity of diasporas and, in general, national minorities in the countries where these minorities live. If you go to a Georgian or Azerbaijani restaurant in Moscow and see that there are a lot of Georgians or Azerbaijanis there, this means that they serve proper Azerbaijani or Georgian food. One example is the rather expensive Lebanese restaurants in Paris, famous for their good cuisine - the traditional business of the Lebanese. Haute cuisine is part of the reproduction of the Lebanese community in France. The same thing is happening in Russia now. There is a lot of research on this topic. Well, in conclusion of my brief speech and commentary, I would like to emphasize that the ability to appreciate taste and differences is a certain talent. Not all of us are blessed with this talent. But to a certain extent, it can be developed in oneself, just as one can develop an ear for music, the ability to appreciate a good performer, or love classical music. This can happen either spontaneously or as a result of the action of certain social mechanisms. Now in any Moscow or Russian bookstore you can see a lot of different books about cooking, which indicates great public interest in this part of the cultural heritage. Before our eyes, interest and the ability to appreciate good wine are being revived, which was very rare in Russia before. In Soviet times, he was appreciated mainly only in intellectual circles. And even now, to be honest, semi-sweet wine spoiled by the addition of sugar is, unfortunately, still our popular taste. In the provinces, semi-sweet wines are usually what you see on sale. But the situation is gradually changing, and this reflects the profound changes that have taken place in our country.

Boris Dolgin: Thank you very much. Another important topic arose here. I hope we can talk a little about her now too. About the impact of the market, because, on the one hand, in a situation when you had to buy a kilogram of sausage, think about the types of sausages, or when you had to buy a kilogram of some cheese, think about the fact that someday we will try different types of cheese , it was impossible. On the other hand, the market is a fairly powerful mechanism, sometimes struggling with regional differences.

Vladimir Kolosov: Can I make a short comment here? On the eve of the 1980 Moscow Olympics, a French line for the production of Camembert was installed at the Ostankino dairy plant. He didn't go at all! Absolutely! It was a complete fiasco, they didn’t buy it. What is this strange product, covered with mold, with a strange smell and taste?! Then, on this line, the so-called Ostankino cheese was produced, that is, the same Camembert, only without the fungus, so it sold better. So the market also strongly depends on public tastes in general and the tastes of different social strata, although, in turn, it can shape them.

Boris Dolgin : Thank you. Alexander, please. Because the view of a person who is faced with the problems of a properly organized kitchen every day, types of cuisine, with the problems of training chefs based on different culinary traditions, is also very important for us here.

Alexander Filin

Alexander Filin: Good evening! Yes, probably, more than any of you, I had to deal with those problems the most and with the fact that, unfortunately, all of us present here found ourselves in such a period of time when, in fact, it was not possible to cook in the kitchen what. Well, we had wonderful beets, potatoes, onions, we made a wonderful vinaigrette, but I will say that, in fact, the cooks, they probably did not suffer, because they were little familiar with the cuisines of other countries, other peoples, with the product , which, in general, was everywhere except our country. What we grew regionally was what we consumed - and we didn’t know any better. Unfortunately, I am a person who started a long time ago, 45 years ago, in gastronomy and cuisine; I graduated from all educational institutions in the Soviet Union that were possible, from college to college. I was already working in the United States, when the thaw began, the ambassador, Vladimir Petrovich Lukin, told me that it was necessary to prepare an anniversary evening for one of our people who had already left for America, I began to offer a menu, in my opinion, the best. But all this turned out to be terrible, because everything I said did not suit them. I'm already thinking, what am I cooking? I named shrimp, shrimp cocktails, sturgeon, and a whole pig. It ended with me being told: “You’re probably kidding us.” Unfortunately, I was so ashamed, because I seemed to have already learned everything by doing gastronomy, and in front of me sat a Jew who, as I said, does not eat. They eat kosher food. Not a single educational institution told us what kosher food is. Therefore, this huge gap, almost a century, was snatched from us and from gastronomes, who could not and did not know what to do and how to cook. I am currently the President of the Chefs Guild. Returning from another business trip, I decided that in each of our kitchens there is a chef who believes that he knows a lot, this was the case in the Soviet Union. In all countries, and, above all, in wonderful France, gastronomy is already science, culture, and everything. But we didn’t have this, but we wanted to connect all the chefs and try to do it. We organized a trade union. The chefs gathered, those who were interested in cuisines. Now, at our base, as soon as possible, we visit all schools in both Spain and France. We argue with great chefs on cases. With people who help us learn. God willing, in 20 years our young chefs, who are now engaged in gastronomy and enjoy studying Japanese, Asian, French, and Spanish cuisine, will do everything so that Russian gastronomy does not suffer, but also all the knowledge that the world has accumulated During the years until we participated in this process, we will master them. Come to us, enjoy your meal, we are waiting for you and will be happy to cook well for you.

Boris Dolgin: Thank you very much.

Jean-Robert Pitt: Listening to both of you, I thought about something that seemed important to me. Many dishes, now globalized, are very popular in all countries of the world: fish and chips, pizza, spaghetti Bolognese, and mayonnaise. These are all dishes that deserve to be taken back to their historical roots. Fish and chips, for example, are ubiquitous dishes. This is fried cod usually, and served with fried potatoes. This dish is typical for the British. This dish appeared in pubs, in public taverns in London and Liverpool, then spread throughout the Anglo-Saxon world, and then throughout the world. This dish is of Portuguese origin, because cod was caught by Portuguese fishermen, because the Portuguese are Catholics, they need to eat more fish, because in the Catholic tradition there are many fast days. They caught cod in the north, and it became the national dish for the Portuguese. When the Portuguese offered fried cod to the Japanese during Lent, tempura appeared in Japan. This was learned from the Jews because when they were expelled from Portugal in the late 16th century, they took the art of frying cod to Amsterdam. Then the Amsterdam Jews under Cromwell came to London and they introduced the art of frying cod in London. Potatoes arrived through the Spanish. It enjoyed great success in England in the 18th century because it saved people from famine. Fried potatoes, like cod. So in the 18th and 19th centuries, fish and chips became a national dish for the British, which actually came from Portugal through the Netherlands and through the Jews. That is, this is a very complex story. When you go into a traditional London pub and order fish and chips, if it's a good pub, it's very tasty to add a little vinegar and have the potatoes cut, not frozen. This is an absolutely gorgeous dish, especially when served with a Times page. It is very important to read the Times when you eat fish and chips, it adds a special flavor to the dish. But it has nothing in common with the fish and chips you'll try in New York or Sydney. This is a very tasty dish that goes great with lukewarm ale. If you love pizza, you need to go back to the origins of the dish. I understand that all tastes are individual, but pizza from Pizza Hut is pizza that passed through Little Italy, the Italian quarter in New York, then through the Anglo-Saxons, who captured the pizza, appropriated it for themselves, added sugar, turned it into some kind of chewy an elastic band. No anchovies, nothing. This has nothing to do with real pizza. In Naples, where pizza was invented, they still make only soft, tender, crust on top, real tomatoes, real olives, real mozzarella, fresh basil, it has nothing to do with Pizza Hut. In addition, this is the national Italian dish, because Brandi invented the Margherita pizza, and Margherita was the Italian queen. After the unification of Italy in 1870, Brandi prepared this pizza for the queen, served with tomato pulp, white mozzarella, these are the colors of Italian pizza in Naples. This is a great gastronomic feeling, you are participating in the identity of the Italian people. It's the same thing when you make your own mayonnaise, it's not that difficult. Real - with good eggs, butter, mustard. This is not the Heinz mayonnaise you buy at the supermarket. You don't need to eat mayonnaise every day, of course. But cook it yourself, it's not difficult. You will take part in the national dish of France, which was offered in the 17th and 18th centuries in France.

Alexander Filin: Now we were talking about cod. In fact, I became acquainted with this product in the Soviet Union. Cod was the most mediocre fish. It was one of the worst fish. But in 1976 I found myself in The Hague, and there they ordered me to cook cod. This ignorance of ours still hinders us. There they showed me when they laid it out, and after some time it began to darken, and the piece of fish that they prepared for me, I was left with the impression of this cod for the rest of my life. In my opinion, there is no better fish in the North Sea. I’m just saying this, I just remembered all this - with the fact that we were strangers.

Question from the audience: Professor Pitt, I would like to ask a few words regarding the recognition of French gastronomy as a cultural heritage of humanity by UNESCO. Specifically - what does this change for French restaurateurs, what does this change for agriculture, and are you afraid that if you make it a cultural heritage, you will somehow fix this cuisine, deprive it of the evolutionary character of development? There are economic aspects linked to cultural aspects. You and the various members of the commission who work at UNESCO, are you ready to fight to reduce work in the kitchen in French families, so that people can not only make good dishes, but also choose good raw materials for this kitchen, quality raw materials? If we take the McDonald's chain, do you want to stand up against those who degrade the quality of our food, like companies like Unilever and other businesses that degrade the quality of their food?

Question from the audience: Good evening, I am an artist-fashion designer, Doctor of Science, art critic. Due to the fact that I am an artist-fashion designer, I have a question about fashion for culinary products. One thing comes into fashion, then another. What do you think? And the models asked me to ask the second question. Everything that is tasty is, as a rule, very harmful. And smoked meats, everything fried, etc. I'm not talking about wine, cake - cholesterol. The latest advances in science suggest that we should still think about the liver and cholesterol. We love to eat to relieve stress. How to combine business with pleasure?

Question from the audience: Mr. Pitt, I would like to thank you for your excellent performance. My question is the following: in the report you mentioned several Russian words and terms. This is a trend, this is a consequence of the cross-year between France and Russia, and, as Mr. Kolosov said about lightly salted cucumbers, is this term now officially used in France? Does this fit into the same lists of terminology as satellite and perestroika ?

Question from the audience: Two questions, one for Mr. Pitt, and the second for our chairman of the guild of chefs. There is haute cuisine - and there is ordinary cuisine, everyday. How is it possible in school restaurants, cafeterias or enterprises, how is it possible to create haute cuisine there that is not made from frozen raw materials? Is it possible?

Alexander Filin: I want to apologize to our respected audience. The fact is that I am flying far to the north, in just a few minutes I will have to leave this audience. I would like to answer about Russian cuisine, which we allegedly began to forget, and I would like to speak in defense. We decided to make this year 2012 the year of Russian gastronomy. Therefore, we will do everything possible to revive Russian cuisine in our city. I had the opportunity to work at the Historical Museum in the restaurant “Red Square, Building 1”. I was a chef there, so we probably did a lot to ensure that those dishes that were undeservedly forgotten, things like Guryev porridge, our soups, returned to us. I believe that it is our task, chefs, cooks, to promote Russian cuisine, because we can talk and write a lot about the revival of Russian cuisine.

Jean-Robert Pitt: A lot of questions were asked. It will take me several hours to fully answer all questions. The most popular dish that no one can eat in France is definitely pancakes with caviar. Nowadays this is impossible, because there is almost no caviar. But in some French restaurants, such as Maxime, near the Place de la Concorde, for a century it was the most luxurious dish for the best Parisian society. Malosol has not yet become part of the culinary habits of the French. As for gastronomy, of course, it is a sign of identity - national, local, regional, cultural. Again, this should be seen as an element of intercultural dialogue. It's like a language - if you protect your own language and speak only in it, you become isolated in your culture. But if you only eat your own food and listen only to the music of your own region, you are living like the tribes somewhere in the Amazon or Papua New Guinea. You are locked into a certain universe that is subject to endogamy, this is a narrowing of culture. Therefore, you need to eat, of course, local cuisine, but it’s even better from time to time to allow yourself, say, be surprised It's great when you visit other countries. The French used to love eating French food all over the world. We geographers know that when we visit, the geographic experience is to eat local foods. Regions and countries where you cannot deny yourself. You need to understand that cuisine is changing, new flavors appear, recipes change. I have great intercultural contacts with Japan, we introduced recipes for blanket with veal, with Parisian champignons, we also introduced Japanese shiitake mushroom, which is also put in the sauce, a little white wine is added, it emphasizes the taste of veal. Therefore, the combination of such cross-cultural elements of cuisine has always existed. We need this to continue. This is, indeed, the essence of culture, just as a language that refuses to borrow foreign words is a dead language. Just like the Hebrew language, Hebrew, which was a dead language for a long time, and when it was recreated in Israel, Hebrew turned into a living language, new words began to be invented, it was an amazing effect. This is the essence of the cultural development of humanity, so that culture constantly develops. Answering the question about UNESCO - the point is that the recognition of French gastronomy as part of the intangible heritage of humanity, because the UNESCO convention can be recognized as a heritage, heritage, cultural elements that are constantly being recreated, constantly developing, evolving. Once it's frozen, beef Bourguignon or pizza can't be put on display in a museum. It's always constantly changing. Of course, fashion and desire. This is comparable to love. If there is always the same feeling, the same gestures, the same actions, this is death, this is the end of love, love simply disappears. It needs to be constantly renewed, fed, fueled with innovations. As for wine, yes, indeed, when you bring wine, sometimes you are surprised when you buy foreign wine in Russia or in another country in the world, because for a long time wines were transported poorly. Now there are good French grapes, when they export far away, they require special air-conditioned containers to keep the wine in good condition. Because wine that travels from France to Japan through South Africa and passes through tropical areas where the temperature reaches 30 degrees, then zero degrees, the wine dies. To preserve wine, preserve it, you need to maintain the same temperature. That is, under normal temperature conditions, the wine is in good condition. The wine stands under electric lamps, the wine that was stored in the cellar appears, not the one that stands under the light, and then there will be no bad surprises. As for the cork, it is oak cork. A lot of work is currently being done on the taste of cork. As for the week of taste, this is not yet related to the UNESCO gastronomic heritage. This is already 25 years old, during the days of this week in schools we talk about what we eat, explain how to cook, invite a chef, this is already a well-known operation. Regarding the issue of kitchens in school and university canteens - this is always a bad kitchen, Russia is probably no exception. What is very important, this is the main message, with little money you can cook very good food. I did, prepared a report for the Minister of Education on improving food in university canteens without increasing costs. Some chefs we interviewed kept costs down by sourcing locally, for example one of the university's best restaurants is located next to the large Capucino Bardo market. The chef was in good contact with a fishmonger. When there was a large delivery of inexpensive fish, the fishmonger called him: I have 50 kilograms of sea bream, very fresh, perhaps the price is cheaper. He changes his menu accordingly, that is, a chef in a hospital, in a school, in a lyceum, in a university, in a prison, who is trying to do something, can do it. Need more imagination. More interesting work than buying large quantities of fresh frozen food and cooking without any effort. Everything is possible, that's why local cuisine is mass cuisine. People come and eat local product, something that cannot be exported. It's just not much. So to try this you have to eat on the spot. You cannot export, say, some kind of landscape, and the influence of one landscape on another. It is better to see the landscape in situ than in a movie, or in a photograph, or on a postcard. Symbols - what do they define, what is the symbolic value of products? A lot of things, it depends on the values ​​of each nation. For example, religious values. Many foods represent feelings very strongly. Even for people who do not practice religion, for example, for a Lutheran monotheist, lamb is very important. Because this is a donation of Isaac to Abraham, that is, when Abraham’s son is on the altar, God exchanges him for a lamb. It is also symbolic of Islam. For an American, December 4, turkey with corn is Thanksgiving, however, it was Thanksgiving Day when the Puritans arrived and negotiated with the Indians, they ate the turkey. On this day, eating turkey has a very important symbolic meaning for Americans. Then it moved to England and became a symbol of Christmas, because it is a symbol of division, it is a large bird that can feed many, it is a symbol of sharing with someone. Sometimes there is some kind of political symbolism in food. I think that in Soviet times, eating at McDonald's for someone who traveled abroad was kind of a taste of freedom, like wearing jeans. In the 60s and 70s, for a young man to wear Levi's jeans was a great pleasure because the symbolism was from another world. Even the words we speak carry some kind of symbolic charge. Salted butter or sweet butter? It is very important. Salted butter is Breton and sweet butter is western France. Interestingly, oil is a symbol of wealth and prosperity, a symbol of what you share with someone. In Italy, Ireland, Scotland there is no cheese, they use sour cream, butter is made, and when butter is placed on the table, it is a symbol of welcome, a symbol of prosperity in the house. Vegetable oil, which came from the Mediterranean, came north. What makes a gastronomic asset, I have already said. We are talking a lot about remuneration for household work in France now; we have an election campaign in connection with the presidential elections. And around a 35 hour work week. No candidate would dare tell you that we will pay for housework, this is not relevant in an economic crisis. It's possible to stay active in the kitchen even when you're working hard. For those who don't have time during the week, you can cook more on the weekends, freeze your own homemade food, and then take the containers out of the refrigerator, but avoid buying food from an industrial kitchen. It's cheaper and better. The sauce is very easy to freeze without any loss of flavor. Paying for housework - I don’t think this is very relevant in the spirit of the times. Should large companies, say agro-industrial companies, be condemned? I don't think this will lead to anything. The only thing is to teach the consumer to consume products wisely. And the purpose of the UNESCO heritage is to tell the French, as well as the entire planet: regain your taste for food, for cooking, and you will be more harmoniously developed, this is one of the means to live better in your own skin. Everything fatty, salty, candied in an industrial kitchen, too many flavor enhancers - this is bad food that is harmful to health. This creates a feeling of fatigue. When you are tired, you eat too much, so addiction occurs, just like with alcohol, if you drink strong alcohol a lot and often. If you eat sugar and fatty foods, you will crave more fatty and sweet foods. You need to learn to choose food depending on your taste, your pleasure, culture, and your health. This is part of education, I think in all countries of the world this is a main topic, because it affects the poor more than the rich. All the rich are very conscious of their figure, because the rich look at fashion models, at luxury magazines. And now all the rich people are trying to be like the mannequins they see in those illustrated magazines. I think that we need to pay attention in poor communities, poor countries, in France, say, in urban poor areas, the problem is the same with accuracy - excess weight. You see this even at school. There is no need to blame children for this, no one needs to be blamed for this, you just need to teach parents to eat wisely depending on their taste, culture, and health. Butter and sugar should not be prohibited. Somehow you need to dose it depending on the need. French cuisine is not luxury cuisine. There is a wonderful dish - this is a soft-boiled egg. You need to choose a good egg from a good chicken that has been properly fed, then this egg will cost more than a commercial egg. This is a peasant egg from a farm and it is exceptionally delicious. The chicken was fed wheat, it was just great. This egg you cook for 4 minutes in boiling water, and when you open it, you dip it in some good bread, inexpensive bread. You lightly moisten the toasted bread, which is also inexpensive, with good butter, then dip it in the egg and eat it. It costs a few rubles, it's not that expensive, but the feeling is amazing. In the afternoon you want to celebrate something - take some red or black caviar and dip it into the egg. This is just amazing, I just want to cry. Good salt, good pepper - this is already high gastronomy. Good proper leek and carrot soup. If the leeks are good, the carrots are good, the right water, a little salt, a little pepper - and that's it. This is delicious. A little drop of milk at the last minute is much better than soup in briquettes. I think this also exists in Russia, sometimes it can be tasty, but it is always the same taste. Gazpacho is fashionable in France now. This is a cold Spanish soup with tomatoes and garlic. Real gazpacho is very tasty. A Spanish brand that industrially produces gazpacho in boxes. It's very tasty, you can eat it once. But a liter is enough for three days. On the second day it tastes the same, on the third day you don’t want to eat it because it’s the same thing. If you make gazpacho yourself, then it’s delicious, because there are different tomatoes, the dosage changes, you add more or less vinegar, you have variety. A dish most famous is, say, apple pie. You know, different housewives will always have different tastes, it will depend on your condition, whether you are in love that day or not, the basic products that you have found, all such factors that change the taste. When you, as a teacher, teach classes to students, you go through the same topic, but the classes are different, because your lectures change, because you learn something, the audience changes. If you are a violinist, you play something that you know well. But the execution will depend on those who listen. Today they are worried - and they are great at listening to you. It's the same in the kitchen. Your family, your guests, they kind of support you. When a cook in love always over-salts in the kitchen, I don't know if it's true. But the feelings deep down influence the kitchen. A question was asked about the bistro. They say the Cossacks introduced it at the beginning of the 19th century, but many bistros have disappeared. Now in many cities the fashion for bistros is returning, where they offer dishes from the local national cuisine. There is also a question about elite cuisine. This is now a fashionable trend, fortunately, it is passing. It was the Spaniard who invented it. Last year, thank God, he finally closed it, because he made square tomatoes there, made 180-degree geometric shapes, it was some kind of provocation. These are more like installations rather than happenings. For example, they put a wheelbarrow with coal in the museum hall and say: you have to admire it, this is an installation. Of course, there are people who love it, but you have to love what you do, the kitchen. Love the people you work for. It is necessary to create empathy with clients, with consumers. If you're in the mood for provocation, it's completely different. The goal is not to provoke, the goal is not to surprise our customers, restaurant visitors, but to make them happy, because this is precisely the creativity of the process. We share our love in such a way that people leave with a big smile. When I go to visit, I leave the table with a smile, because I want to share my feelings of admiration with my friends. As for alcohol, there was still a question. Now champagne and cognac are protected brands. It surprises me that even in Russia they are still being produced for the domestic market, because there have been court decisions all over the world, and, in principle, local producers should not have such a right to put the words “champagne” and “cognac” on the labels of their alcoholic drinks . You make vodka, we also make vodka, but we don’t call it vodka. We call her Vito, or something else, but we cannot maintain a branded registered name. There was also the question of whether there is Islamization. Yes indeed. Couscous, for example. Once I was little in the suburbs of Paris and never ate couscous. Then, during the Algerian War, the French who were returning from the war, and those French who had to leave Algeria after the armistice, brought with them recipes for couscous. Now we are making it, this dish is already considered local. Its roots may be North African and Arab, but now it has become our national dish. There is a discussion about halal cuisine, about kosher food in schools. Should we provide children from Muslim or Jewish families with food in schools, respectively, halal or kosher? I don't think this should be done. I think there are common areas such as schools. And there we should be able to eat the same thing. There are ethnic restaurants, they are everywhere in the world. If you go to a Georgian restaurant in Moscow that serves Georgian food made by Georgians, that's good. But there are Georgian restaurants where people from other republics work, and they do not know Georgian cuisine. There is also a fashion for sushi in Paris, but 90% of the restaurants that serve sushi are run by the Chinese. They don't understand anything about fish, they don't know how to work with raw fish. They buy, first of all, salmon that is produced under artificial conditions, and this is wrong. We must do it as they do in Japan. In Moscow, I think it’s the same. Finding good sushi is very difficult. There should be exotic restaurants to have fun and discover new tastes. But in order to have good regional cuisine, you need to have raw materials and know-how. It's difficult to find very good pizza in Paris. There are pizzerias that serve good pizzas. In Italy, for example, in Naples, the pizzas are good everywhere. Spaghetti with Bolognese sauce is available at every restaurant in Italy, but in France it is difficult to find. In northern Italy they have dente pasta, Bolognese sauce, very tasty. It’s so delicious that you don’t even need to sprinkle grated Parmesan on top. Just good spaghetti, good pasta, good sauce - and a drizzle of olive oil. I probably didn't answer all the questions. Thank you for the interest you have shown. I understand that it would be possible to organize a Russian year of gastronomy.

Vladimir Kolosov : Three short remarks. I found the question of Puzanov’s colleague, a well-known specialist in urban planning, very interesting. It is known that consuming local products is one of the slogans of sustainable development, and it is very important. It seems to me that so far, unfortunately, it is far from reality. So far, a completely opposite trend is observed. I recently happened to be in Dushanbe, and I was amazed that at the local market most of the vegetables and fruits are imported, from China and other countries of the world, and not local at all, and this is in a rather poor country. The same thing is happening in the Russian North Caucasus and in many other regions.

Food identity is a matter of ethnic identity, and even more so social, especially as it relates to restaurants as places of certain social practices and communication of a certain circle. Moreover, the quality of the cuisine, in my opinion, is not directly dependent on the price and social identity of the people who visit the restaurant.

And finally, about the interaction between haute and folk cuisine - a plot that Jean-Robert knows well. It is well known that in French cuisine many peasant dishes have become haute cuisine - for example, cassoulet. And this can also be found in Russian cuisine. Haute cuisine always interacts with folk cuisine, and this is again a question of identity.

Boris Dolgin: Many thanks to Jean-Robert, many thanks to Vladimir, many thanks to the departed Alexander. Many thanks to the French Institute, the Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin Center, the French Embassy, ​​and everyone who came to us today.