Scenario XXI: Neo-Nazism in Russia

A. NARYSHKIN: 22 hours and 12 minutes in the Russian capital, you are listening to the radio station "Echo of Moscow". As always by Sundays, we, Alexey Solomin and Alexey Naryshkin, are looking into your help and with the help of our experts, we find out what can be considered major threats in the 21st century.

A. SOLOMIN: Neo-Nazism is a theme today's our transfer, this is the second part. In the past we talked about... cited some countries around the world as an example, today we Let's focus directly on Russia. We have a director information and analytical center "Sova" Alexander Verkhovsky. Hello.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Hello.

A. NARYSHKIN: We will immediately remind you of the phone number for your SMS: +7-985-970-45-45. Send your questions to our guest, your thoughts and comments. And also the @vyzvon twitter account can also be used to send any question. Do not forget that the broadcast is still provided by Setevizor on our website.

A. SOLOMIN: The first question is just for us to outline so that people understand what we are talking about. we are talking. And, as far as I know, the constant discrepancy of this term. Neo-Nazism, what we call neo-Nazism in Russia today - what is it? Or who is it?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Neo-Nazism is called not just Nazis today, strictly speaking, there are probably very few of them. This a term that arose, well, in Europe mainly and in our country it means something same thing. These are people who profess some kind of renewed, let's say, Nazism. The main essence of the update is that it is ultranationalism on behalf of more than one nation, as was the case in the Third Reich, but on behalf of a broader community, usually on behalf of white race. Accordingly, in Europe and here, usually these people do not even call themselves neo-Nazis, they use some other words. Well in relation to them, too, they often speak differently.

A. SOLOMIN: Rather racists, that is.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, in general, yes, these people are racists. It is not necessary in in our Soviet understanding, what, there, black and white, right? That yes, if a person hates people for some other ethnicity, then this is also commonly called racism, it's just that for some reason it's so with us the word is not used.

A. NARYSHKIN: You have already said that it is in Europe and in Russia. And how does our neo-Nazism differ from European, what, perhaps, is the specificity of our neo-Nazis?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, I will say so. In the 90s, he was quite different, because he had such a rather nostalgic character, attempts recreate something from the past.

A. NARYSHKIN: From the past… well, what do you mean?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Domestic or ... well, there were references literally, so say, attempts to create, as it were, a new fascist party such as ... well, according to European models of the middle of the 20th century. Now it's all gone, and, in in general, our neo-Nazis are now very similar to neo-Nazis Western Europeans, they share the same ideas of white supremacy, that the same concept that such mono-ethnic states should be built, where all only for their own and so on. This, in general, is the ultra-right, as they say, ideology as it is.

A. SOLOMIN: In their understanding, a European and a Russian are still representatives of the same race.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes.

A. SOLOMIN: So, this is a monostate that includes Europe and Russia?

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, no, no, they mean many states. Here pluralism is supposed, let's say, not that there will be one great Reich. Such people exist too, but this is a marginal phenomenon. It is believed that Here the great white peoples will create, so to speak, their national states that will be perfectly clean. And, roughly speaking, the cleaner this is a society in such a racial sense, so it is better.

A. SOLOMIN: Question from a listener. I'm sorry.

A. NARYSHKIN: Yes, I just wanted to address the questions that are on the website our readers left. Here user Dybenko asks you: “I would like to hear the reason for the emergence of Nazism in our country. We fought with fascism, we defeated it. It's been a while, and Nazi organizations appeared, among other things, in Leningrad, in the city survived the blockade. Why is the idea of ​​fascism still attractive, especially for young people?

A. VERKHOVSKY: You know, I'm not very youth, right? At school, I studied in such a deeply Soviet time, and I I remember well how we were taught about the war and about the victory over fascism. There a lot was said about the fact that we defeated such kind of monsters, who invaded, roughly speaking, our country, and nothing really it was said about what these monsters, in fact, were bad, except for invading our country and doing so badly to our population.

A. NARYSHKIN: Well, that is, the dangers of ideology were not analyzed.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, the meaning, in fact, of what Nazism was, it remained incomprehensible to most Soviet people, I'm sure. Well the reasons why so was, in general, one can guess, but, nevertheless, this is the result such. And so, let's say, those young people who come to the conclusion that Hitler, he is generally well done, they must, of course, somehow combine it, Well, with such healthy patriotism. There are different options here. Some more radical young people believed that he well done, and the Slavs - of course, the second grade. But it is clear that such people it can't be too much, because who would consider himself second-rate? Therefore, the dominant thought is that, well, he was generally well done, but made some mistakes. For example, he did not understand that the Slavs also are part of the Aryan race. An easy way out.

A. NARYSHKIN: That is, they make some adjustments to the Nazi ideology and adapt it for ours ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, yes, of course. Especially since it hasn't been that long. years after all, right? It has been many years, two generations have changed. AND for young people, especially for many years. Therefore, amending just natural. In addition, I want to say that also in Soviet times, there were still some attempts to create neo-Nazi groups. Well, of course, for the reasons for such a strict regime, this is far couldn't come in. But here is a man who is still alive and flourishing in In a sense, well, at least Aleksey Dobrovolsky is active, now he calls himself a sorcerer though, so he tried in the 50s create a neo-Nazi group. Not because he was so convinced Nazi, strictly speaking, but because it was such a cool anti-Soviet gesture. This was the most anti-Soviet thing that only could have been invented. And it seems to me that for some part of the people, well, small, of course, it was, well, something so attractive. For example, from my childhood, very childhood, I remember that, well, when I was 7-8 years old, I lived in such a very working area, which is typical. Here it was quite popular for us to somehow sympathize with the Germans in war, because it seemed somehow unusual, right? That's what everyone thinks Yes, but we think otherwise. But nobody invested in it in 7 years no sense, of course, it was just such an oppositional gesture. Then there were some well-known stories about Nazi groups that, in formed in the early 80s. Well, they quickly fell apart, naturally, but nevertheless.

A. NARYSHKIN: It turns out that if we now have people who like such views, then the authorities are to blame, because we do not have strict laws that would not just bring them totally underground...

A. SOLOMIN: Yes, that we do not have the Soviet Union, which severely restricts them.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, in a sense it can always be said. And of course, if we had, as in the Soviet Union, then we would have none, not no one could express good or bad views, at least long time. But it's not that there is little power there planted. For views, this is not a method, to be honest. All the same, I I hope they understand. And in what is real and in due time then in the Soviet did not explain to the children what was wrong with the Third Reich, except that he attacked other countries. And since then, well, if The Third Reich has already been explained a lot, but some ideas that had significance for the Third Reich, they, well, somehow took root or something in our society. It seems to me that this is precisely the same Soviet government is partly to blame. She very strongly planted the division of people according to ethnicity. Well, in the Russian Empire there was such a division, but much weaker than under Soviet rule.

A. SOLOMIN: Today neo-Nazism in Russia is some kind of divided thing, it is a lot of currents Or is it still some kind of more united environment?

A. VERKHOVSKY: This is not a unified environment, it is a very pluralistic environment...

A. SOLOMIN: We are now talking about the illegal part.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, the illegal one is all the more pluralistic, because how will she unite in an illegal state? And just these people from experience already in previous years, they practically understood that it was simply dangerous to unite. If you're committing a crime... we're talking about it, right? Because those those who do not commit them may be illegal. Then unite into large organizations are suicidal.

A. SOLOMIN: Do they contradict each other?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

A. SOLOMIN: How serious?

A. VERKHOVSKY: They have differences, many differences. There are people, who believe that, say, it is necessary to focus on Orthodoxy. They understand it, of course, in an exotic way. Much, of course, in effect just such a neo-Nazi tradition, a lot of references to neo-paganism and some reconstructions on this topic. Eat…

A. SOLOMIN: Slavic paganism already?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, of course.

A. NARYSHKIN: Well, this is certainly reflected in their symbolism, and some ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: Symbolism, yes…

A. NARYSHKIN: ... slogans, maybe.

A. VERKHOVSKY: There are many differences, of course. Then, there are important items for a dispute. For example, where should the border of the state still pass. Because if we consider that the state should be, well, here is Russia for Russians, then how to draw the border so that ...

A. NARYSHKIN: So where is this Russia that is?..

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, well, so that it does not appear, so to speak, within the boundaries Moscow principality at a certain time, yes, then how to spend border? Therefore, there are, say, disputes: to separate the North Caucasus or not separate the North Caucasus?

A. SOLOMIN: And different neo-Nazis have different positions on this matter?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, there are different views. Yes.

A. SOLOMIN: That is, there are such neo-Nazis… well, Russian neo-Nazis, who believe that the North Caucasus should be part of their states. Well, how do they imagine it.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, there are such people. There may be two reasons for this. Well I wouldn't to say that it is neo-Nazis, because they are really very different groups. Some are so self consciously straight oppose, say: “No, we are not Nazis, in general, in any way, we other". Well, there is a lot in common, nevertheless, but ... Therefore, no one himself almost does not use such a term. But, one way or another, for, say, preservation of the North Caucasus as part of such an ethnically a certain Russian power can act for two reasons. One ideological: what, well, how did we conquer it - what, now give it back? AND this may apply, as you understand, not only to the North Caucasus. A the second is pragmatic. You know, it's pretty common. What is hatred, it is not for the territory, it is for the people. These people, of course, hate, first of all, people from the North Caucasus, they are the main object of enmity. But, in general. many people understand intellectually that if you separate North Caucasus, then the natives themselves will not disappear from the territory Russian Federation. And so here separate, do not separate ...

A. SOLOMIN: Tell me, is there such an organization, not a party, no longer a party, "Another Russia" now, in the past the National Bolsheviks. They are also often called fascists.

A. NARYSHKIN: Limonovites.

A. SOLOMIN: Yes. Do you still include them in the category of neo-Nazis, or is it a completely different thing?

A. VERKHOVSKY: It seems to me that this is a different thing. In the 90s they are very flirted a lot with all neo-fascist rhetoric and symbols. But the thing simply that the Limonovites, whatever they are called, for them the main thing is to be against the mainstream, the mainstream in society, especially against the mainstream in power. Therefore, since the mainstream is still with changes with time, the party also changes. But another thing is that it is the idea is like a party, but real people can be different. And, of course, in "NBP" and then in "Other Russia" there were quite a few people who were definitely radical nationalist views. Therefore, they even have regional organizations are different. Let's say, here's Moscow, it's more like this ultra-left, and St. Petersburg is more ultra-right. And it can be seen only if see who is rallying with whom.

A. SOLOMIN: And the monarchists? Are there any groups that...

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes.

A. SOLOMIN: They are also in some form ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: It's just that monarchists can theoretically be non-nationalists in general, even ... well, the idea is just such an image of the monarchy, it supranational, supraethnic. Therefore, such an ideal monarchist, as it were, he not a nationalist. But there are, of course, people who successfully combined, of course.

A. NARYSHKIN: I will remind you, Alexander Verkhovsky is our guest, Scenario XXI program. I have met such considerations on the Internet, Western publications wrote about this that we have country of neo-Nazis, almost half of the total number around the world. Is it possible ... firstly, do you agree with this assessment? And is it possible somehow calculate how many people we really have sympathizes ... well, not exactly sympathizes, but participates in certain, there, far-right groups?

A. VERKHOVSKY: You see, because... I would like to define terms here. We have different nationalist movements, right? Russian nationalists, there, Bashkir, Tuvan, some other. We are mainly talking about Russians now. radical nationalists. How to count them? There are legal illegal. It is especially difficult to count illegal ones. But nonetheless, There is, however, an indirect way. Once a year Russian a march that ordinary citizens do not go to, to be honest, at all, there It is the members of different groups, both legal and illegal, who go there. Well, or there are still intermediate versions. And you can guess how much people actually go there. Well, that is, they themselves call some very large numbers, but, frankly, I would neglect this. Here. We regularly attend the Russian March in Moscow and believe that there, with several angles, how many people are there. The largest Russian march was in the 11th year, and there were about 6.5 thousand people. At the same time, in Petersburg, the people are always just several times less in other cities participants, well, it happens that there are several hundred, more often several tens. I I think that if you look around the country, it will turn out, well, 15-20 thousand.

A. NARYSHKIN: In total?

A. VERKHOVSKY: All in all, yes. At the same time, it is clear that someone does not walk March, right? Well, of course, right? But still, I think it's an order of magnitude. There are not so many members of far-right groups. Actually, the problem it’s just that it has always been that before the protest movement of the last year, their rallies, well, it seems that they are not very big, nevertheless, they were the most big compared to everyone else. So they could say that they are the most successful opposition movement. Now to say so it is forbidden.

A. NARYSHKIN: Is it possible ... you said that in 2011 there were ... well, it was the largest Russian march in the entire the history of your observations.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, these marches...

A. NARYSHKIN: Well, yes, yes, yes. Can we say that these ideas are gradually fading away?

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, ideas and the number of marchers are two different things. In our country, according to surveys, say, by the Levada Center, about 55% of the population plus or minus, there, sometimes 53, sometimes 58, the figure changes from year to year. But the last 10, even more years, has been stable around 55% fluctuating number of people, the percentage of people who share completely or partly the idea of ​​the slogan "Russia for Russians", they believe that some ethnic groups should be discriminated against, they believe that the titular the so-called population should have privileges. That is, it is, in theory, ready-made electorate of the ultra-right party.

A. NARYSHKIN: Even so.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, actually, yes? This set of ideas - these are those ideas for which people vote for some "Jobbik" in Hungary, there, and so on. But we have them, these, in essence, huge masses of people, do not support these nationalists, they do not go to their marches, and even more so for they are not voted, even if there is such an opportunity.

A. NARYSHKIN: V what is the problem here? On the one hand, people seem to be ready to support these ideas, on the other hand, do not come to the March.

A. VERKHOVSKY: And I think that they ...

A. NARYSHKIN: Some, perhaps, rejection of the fact that, probably, these neo-Nazi groups, they are kind of fringe or…

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, I think so. That is, for ... well, in the 90s, if you step back so much, then there the picture was for the nationalists better. Somehow they voted for them, well, not very successfully, but nonetheless less, anyway. And then it all started to fade away. Well, it's just not I want to go deep into some kind of retrospective analysis, but now the situation is such that the image of a Russian nationalist for the average Russian citizen is the image of a skinhead who hunts with a bat or a knife Tajiks through the gates.

A. NARYSHKIN: Well, yes, it's true.

A. VERKHOVSKY: And no one wants to identify with this. Well, to someone reluctance out of disgust, and someone out of fear, because it is clear that in The next episode comes a cop.

A. SOLOMIN: Well, or showdowns with anti-fascists, for example, with other radicals.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes. Well, maybe not everyone knows about it. But about policeman, at least you can guess, right? What if you came and stood next to these guys...

A. SOLOMIN: Indeed, this image is no longer fashionable, is this the image of the 90s, skinheads?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, no, the image ... no, on the contrary, I want to say that for it is they who personify the average person now Russian nationalism. And here are all sorts of, well, let's say, respectable-looking leaders, yes, they cannot brighten up this image in any way. And it's for real not by chance, because ... well, here, for example, Alexander Belov, the creator Movements against illegal immigration, he, in fact, created movement on purpose so that it is not marginal. That is, it it was not like nationalistic, it was for everything good against everything bad, right? against illegal immigration. And who, in fact, illegal immigration? They did not even register the organization, so as not to give the authorities another idea that they are dangerous. They generally led yourself with all your might carefully. But, nevertheless, all the same, the entire asset consisted entirely of the same fighters. And, of course, any person who came up to the distance of visual contact to the DPNI, understood what it is, and usually stepped back. Therefore, DPNI has remained the same ... well, now it is already the “Russians” movement, along with the same, even more radical groups. And still they are completely unacceptable for layman.

A. SOLOMIN: Tell me, here are the amendments to the law on rallies, which forbid, in particular, people to come to mass events in masks, did it somehow fix the situation? Now they go to Russian marches legalized groups, non-legalized ones stay at home, or do representatives of non-legalized groups take off their masks?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, at the last March, which was already in the 12th year, there were fewer people. And it is precisely this neo-Nazi youth such a combat there was much smaller. Maybe because of the masks, of course. On really impossible to guess. Or maybe because this radical the youth was actually very offended by Belov and the others for the fact that they collaborated with liberals and leftists within the framework of the protest movement, what of course…

A. SOLOMIN: What is forbidden for them.

A. VERKHOVSKY: ... in the eyes of neo-Nazis, it's just as if unthinkable in any way, yes.

A. SOLOMIN: +7-985-970-45-45 - phone for your SMS messages, send your questions. @vyzvon Twitter account and echo.msk.ru website. I remember, this is the Scenario XXI program on Ekho Moskvy, our guest is Alexander Verkhovsky, director of the information and analytical center "Sova". We Today we are talking about neo-Nazism in Russia. And right away I wanted to ask about that parts of the neo-Nazis, which we can speak of as armed groups as organized crime. When was the murder Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova, when Nikita was on trial Tikhonov and Evgenia Khasis, there were a lot of reports that ... Well, in this case, right? That there really is some kind of network armed criminals, ideological neo-Nazis. What can you to say about such things, about such groups?

A. VERKHOVSKY: You see, it’s good to say something about such groups when they are already found. But it is clear that since they are regularly found, it means that they are somewhere continue to exist, of course. In fact, the usual trajectory the life of such a young neo-Nazi, she is like this: he is in his teens usually ends up in some appropriate company ... I mean a typical scenario, of course, because there are individual differences. Then he gets into some ... this company, in essence, is yard gang, just with ideas, yes, which can be right here on area, as they say, to beat someone. Then after a couple any stories that show the riskiness of such behavior, someone falls out of this, and someone further begins to take care of its safety. So there are some slightly encrypted horizontal ties so that it is not so easy for the police to catch it. People stop attacking someone right next to their house, and go for this at least somewhere, instructions appear on how to do it all, they, please available everywhere on the internet. And some environment is formed. Further in this environment, people can already be formed seriously motivated by some groups focused on systematic ... here not episodic such that we, there, drink beer for three weeks, well, or if we are straight tagers, we don’t drink beer, yes, but we go to the rocking chair exclusively, but then let's go and beat someone. There are groups that are not like that. That yes, some extreme case - this is Artur Ryno, there was such a thing known, yes, which, when he was arrested, he said ...

A. SOLOMIN: And Skachevsky is there ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: The second person, yes, is Skachevsky. Rino said that he committed fifty-something (forgotten) murders. As a result, I suspect that's the way it was. That is, it is proved that he had less than thirty, but I I think that it’s just that the investigation is tired of proving further - because where else, right? And he still couldn’t get more than ten years, because that he was underage at the time of his arrest. And these comrades, Ryno and Skachevsky, they went as if they were going to work. They had there the case when they killed one person in the morning, went to McDonald's, there, rested, went and killed another one. Well, this is extreme, right? Usually, of course, people don't live like that. But nevertheless, here say, the group to which Tikhonov belonged is the same, yes, they did not go to work, they were preparing for some serious terrorist attacks. Because in at some point in this environment, the idea arose that, roughly speaking, all You can't cut Tajiks. That is, it was written in manifestos directly text that they come faster than we kill them, nothing can be to do. So what should be done? Gotta commit, well, in general entities, terrorist attacks. It is necessary to attack representatives of the authorities, some key figures, because of which the Tajiks come, and then here they are stop coming.

A. SOLOMIN: That is, Stanislav Markelov was a part of…

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, from their point of view, he was such a key figure. AND, well, now the case of the murder of Judge Chuvashov is being investigated, and that's all belongs to the same group. Moreover, judging by the materials of the case, this is not that there was a group that meets regularly, just not. These were people who had some episodic ties with each other, once again did not glow, and so on. Tikhonov generally lived on illegal position. And all this, by the way, had, well, almost everything, had to do with quite legally existing structure, which is called "Russian image". It, in fact, still exists ... well, in fact, it no longer exists. exists. And ... that is, to the question of legal and illegal. Here were legal people, that's very close, right around the corner, were not even very legal people.

A. SOLOMIN: But this is not the image of a skinhead, this is a completely different image.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, this is a completely different image.

A. SOLOMIN: This is not a skinhead with a bat.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, yes, yes. Skinhead with a bat, he, I say he exists, well, as if due to the fact that he was promoted as an image at the beginning 2000s, it has become entrenched in the mass consciousness. But in this very environment, in general, the word "skinhead" is already rather abusive, here just like such teenage behavior, yes, simple. They consider themselves serious people who don't just walk the streets with a bat.

A. NARYSHKIN: I remind you, the program "Scenario XXI", our guest is Alexander Verkhovsky, director of the information and analytical center "Sova". I wanted I would like to ask Alexei and me to draw for radio listeners a portrait of such a standard Russian neo-Nazi. It's, well, rather just a young man. Where does he live, in what city? What is his age? Does he have any education? Only school or he studies in vocational school? Who are these people?

A. SOLOMIN: Or at the university, by the way.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, yes, yes. Well, where he studies - it depends on the age, in in general. Since people of the far right, like most people of all other views, do not want to go to the army, then they magically all students, if they have already reached this by age. That's why, Well, they are ordinary people. That is, as I say, people come in youthful very, so early teens usually on a Wednesday and then they...

A. NARYSHKIN: These are some bad schools, maybe? ..

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, no, no, no.

A. NARYSHKIN: ... backward or ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, absolutely not. That is, if you just view ... then yes, any school. The only thing that seems to be noticed - that usually these people, on average, have troubled families there. There, parents divorced or something. But, on the other hand, every second family in our country divorced, so it's impossible to say that this is some kind of correlation serious. So no, they are different people. It cannot be said that any lifestyle is more likely to lead a person to far right views.

A. NARYSHKIN: By city, by region, maybe.

A. VERKHOVSKY: By cities. These are big cities, these are big cities. Actually, this is a movement, so it moves like a wave, so to speak. It appeared in the capitals, in Kaliningrad sometime in the 90s, in mid-90s, and began to spread. In fact, this wave still continues to move from big cities to smaller ones.

A. NARYSHKIN: That is, it does not mean that this is everything that is born in small cities and people do it because there is nothing ... well, there is no leisure normal?

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, no, no, this, I must say, is all in my opinion, such ... well, some vulgar explanations that are designed reduce the problem to some kind of economic, or, there, leisure. No I do not I doubt that if ... that in each particular case, probably, it was possible I would like to distract a teenager with something more exciting, but this applies to any deviant behavior, not only to ultra-right views and racist killings. Therefore, no, these are very different people who mainly in big cities to this day. That is, in fact, now, according to the data available to us, almost half of ... well, not half, of course, but some large proportion of these crimes takes place in Moscow and the Moscow region. Because it's still the core it is here.

A. SOLOMIN: Is this explained by something?

A. VERKHOVSKY: And the fact that it originated here. And it continues from here to spread, and inside it also, as it were, involves new people. IN adolescent environment at some point when a critical mass achieved, it becomes just cool. Well, how's it been for a while it was cool for teenagers that they had a friend, there, a bandit, and now cool that he has a nationalist friend. They usually say: "We nationalists." And, of course, anything can happen. In small towns where there are not very many people, there this environment at some point by chance can, for example, simply disappear, dissolve: someone left, someone imprisoned - and the company broke up, and there is nothing. And through, there, a few years, new ones just grow up, and again. Basically, it's still young people. Those who remain after twenty years are, as a rule, people, or who are trying to make a political career out of it (such a little), or already serious criminal actions on this basis.

A. SOLOMIN: What still has more influence, pure ideology or? .. that's very many, especially young people, become nationalists, radical nationalists, right? We can get confused all the time terms. We, there, determined: there are illegal ones, there are legal ones. Still, hatred for a representative of another nationality in many young people arises on the basis of some cases, cases from life: specific attacks, robberies, if they are committed by representatives other nationality. That is, can we say that we are talking about such neo-Nazi groups, or after all, well, there are people outraged really by this crime, they explain to themselves the difference here in nationality, in relation to culture, to life in society and the similar.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, of course. I even think that most of them come that way. Submission that teenager, there, reads Mein Kampf, then joins some kind of group - this is very naive picture. No, of course, he takes all this from everyday life. From conversations there with friends. If something didn’t happen to him, then it happened to a friend. something happened. The question is always how it is interpreted a man who made history. If he was beaten in the street, what, understandable often happens to a teenager, the question is how he will perceive those who beat him. That is, he will consider that he has ... one will say that “I the gopniks beat me, ”the other will say that“ they beat me, there ... ”- further there will most likely be an unprintable expression denoting another ethnic group.

A. SOLOMIN: Conditionally: "The Caucasians beat me because I'm Russian."

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, he most likely won’t say “Caucasians”, he is somehow tougher will say. And it's a matter of perception. And perception, it is spilled in society. That is, it is not specific to the far right.

A. NARYSHKIN: Well, accordingly, even if some such situation happened to you, you to one of your friends ... well, shared yours with these experiences - they can even impose an interpretation on you, say: “Ah, you did not understand? It was they who beat you…”

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes maybe. There are a lot of options here. But the question is what point of view will prevail. Well, it's just that we're constantly not what we're on. level of yard conversations, there, or in the kitchen, we can also in the newspaper easy to read and wherever you want to hear about what, there, these people, these people there, I don’t know, Chechens, for example, or Tajiks, or else, Chinese, anyone, they are not like us. And then there is a list of what they are not, and this list, in general, is always negatively colored in amount. Therefore, yes, of course, when a person collides with someone and he assumes that this is a Chechen - well, he can be mistaken, let's say, but let's say, right? He obviously treats him negatively. If then not God forbid, something happens, then...

A. SOLOMIN: And this is the the level when you can work with a person? That is, it is on some level, you can still convince, explain something? And if so, how is it should look like, how should it work, who should do it?

A. VERKHOVSKY: This, of course, is a big problem: to explain it, in principle, anyone can. I ideally assume that any person, who retained such sanity in the clinical sense, may be convinced about something. You just have to find a person who convince, and must find an approach to it.

A. SOLOMIN: He must trust this person.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, absolutely right, he must trust him - this is the basic premise. With this, in fact, the main problem, because who us, well, as we usually say, teaches tolerance, right? IN basically it is… firstly, as a rule, no one teaches at all. Either this is heard in the form of some incomprehensible stamps, which, well, a person does not knows how to apply to his life in general. Or here we have, for example, lessons of tolerance at school are conducted. I never did anything good heard about these classes. And for the same reason that this is some a story that is simply perpendicular to reality. Here we listened it, there, children or teenagers, well, that's all, and they forgot, because they generally it is not clear what to do with it.

A. NARYSHKIN: They are told that we should live together. They come to their area and hear about another attack...

A. VERKHOVSKY: And not everything is friendly there. And this case will not be dealt with this lesson. Now, if he understood this lesson, there would be another story. And gradually such an information environment is being created in which any conflict situations are described as, as we usually say, international conflict. That's actually me ... of course, the old story, but I think that still people remember. There was such a story in the village of Sagra on Ural, right?

A. SOLOMIN: Yes, yes, yes.

A. VERKHOVSKY: She became in a sense, a symbol of such ethnic conflict at one time. Although if this story is described as it was originally described, not people from the "City Without Drugs", and some other people, then there there were no ethnic moments in this story at all. There was drug dealer who lived in the village, got the inhabitants there, the inhabitants of his tried to get out. He called the bandit roof, the roof came, the inhabitants resisted. Then the police came, sorted out, as always, not with those. In general, well, such a story, well, sad, of course, but not it is clear where the ethnic is, absolutely. Participants in history considered it as an ethnic conflict, and those who filed it then for mass media, they looked at it like that, deliberately painted it like that. AND it was very easy to pick up. And that's it, how would this simple story become such a symbol of conflict, although it was not there.

A. NARYSHKIN: Here Look, Ilya writes to us at +7-985-970-45-45, our SMS receiver: “My hatred for Caucasians has developed due to the constant informational background in the media about their behavior”. Here is what you are talking about now said. How much does the media really influence what in people can Perhaps, in quite a small number, there is such intolerance towards Caucasians, to visitors from Central Asia? For example, they talked about that ... there was even a bill not to name in the media nationality. Is this correct or not?

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, this idea is completely wrong, because here the bill is somewhat out of place as a phenomenon.

A. NARYSHKIN: What's the matter then? But we are really ... here we are, we are we also work, and in a sense, it’s probably wrong that there is always some ordinary conflict, maybe we bypass it, but conflict, when, conditionally, a Tajik and a Russian appear there, after all, this a little not that it is served differently, but it is perceived ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: Attracts attention from the very beginning.

A. NARYSHKIN: Yes.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, no matter how much I would like to act as a mentor, yes, in front of journalists, but the bottom line is that in the report significant information is being conveyed, right? That someone A, say, robbed someone B. If he robbed him because, there... I don't know what. Because that one was drunk, right? Here is the important information. Lying, there, in a puddle, it was easy to rob. Or something else…

A. SOLOMIN: Or he needed money.

A. VERKHOVSKY: There are some significant circumstances and insignificant circumstances. If, in addition, one of them turned out to be a Tajik, and another Uzbek, then this is most likely an insignificant circumstance. Although, Certainly. there are significant cases, there are robberies that are motivated just an ethnic difference. For example, there was such an ultra-right character, he still exists, he is in a madhouse, the truth is, which robbed stalls...

A. SOLOMIN: Datsik, right?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Datsik, yes. Well, these are mobile. And he chose exactly those where, therefore, the owners non-Russian people, as far as he was aware, at least. That is, here he had a robbery was kind of like on such a discriminatory basis. That's when it makes sense. The legislative ban will not give anything here. You just need to provide information that is relevant to the case.

A. NARYSHKIN: Two more text messages, they are similar, I will read you two. Basil asks: “Who is the puppeteer of the neo-Nazis, who is behind them? They are not may be on their own. And who are their curators? And also, well, about similar question: “Are there data on collaboration, curation or patronage of neo-Nazis by the special services?” - This is Irina asks.

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, first of all, I want to say that the performance, that people can't do it by themselves, it's somehow very Soviet. People by themselves, they can do anything, and they absolutely do not need them for this generate, there, create and so on. That is, enough initiative people who will create any grouping for every taste. There are a lot of people who share nationalist views in our country, so there is no problem here. As for whether they are supervised, we have to it is, there, the Department of Internal Policy of the Administration The President, who oversees everyone he can, in principle. In which sense it supervises? Not in the sense that it creates some organizations...

A. NARYSHKIN: But they probably do not prohibit or oppress

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, we can prohibit law enforcement agencies, strictly speaking. With us, they oppress someone, someone is not very oppressed. On actually it's quite a complex policy, how to oppress them, it's in in some sense another question already, right? Do they create - that is, behind this here is the question, in general, it is understandable, the thought can be traced: is it not the authorities did they create everything on our heads out of their own considerations? Answer, in in general, obvious: it’s definitely not created by the authorities. That the authorities with this Reality must somehow work - this is also a kind of inevitability. Question in how the Presidential Administration, how the special services with this worked - was it good or bad? That is, well, how would it be was it effective? This is a question indeed. I am inclined to think that they did it very effectively. But it's hard to discuss this is in detail, because basically it's all hidden, according to understandable reasons. And, well, at least it's not a matter of creation. The question of how to pursue them, so to speak, and suppress them, it is not very simple. That is, some thing seems to be obvious: if an ordinary criminal crime, including what is called a hate crime, then is motivated, there, by national and other hatred, then, if caught, if you prove it, then there will be a verdict. And there will be many or few sentences - depends mainly on how active the police are in this direction will work.

A. NARYSHKIN: You have...

A. SOLOMIN: Can it be in connection with this? .. Yes.

A. NARYSHKIN: I just wanted not to leave this topic about business. Del about neo-Nazis, are there more and less of them every year? Do you have any number?

A. VERKHOVSKY: So there are numbers, Yes. Actually, there are two sides here: how many crimes and how many punishments. Unfortunately, there are no government statistics on crimes. Well, in a sense, there can be no absolutely perfect statistics. maybe because there should be some kind of proof, right? We collect some statistics, as it seems to us, well, almost certainly, let's say that they were hate crimes. And, of course, we only know a small quite a part of them, but we can track the dynamics. And so, according to our estimates, the situation, well, since the late 90s has been continuously deteriorating crimes and the peak was in 2008, when, according to our data, here I am I say, obviously very incomplete, there were 116 people killed and about 500 seriously damaged.

Then the numbers began to decline. A they began to decline not because, there, the ultranationalists have become kinder, but because they really began to actively plant. If in the early 2000s there were almost no such cases, well, that is, let's put it this way, it was some not a risky business at all for these young people, from which they, in fact, so terribly multiplied, then later, somewhere with mid-2000s, this car started to gain momentum because, well, apparently, the Kremlin realized that there is some kind of problem here, that this is not it's just that the murders are so ordinary, which, well, a lot, at the end after all, there are murders in our country, and here there is a certain problem political. And then gradually, slowly, as always with us, yes, swaying, law enforcement agencies began to catch them. And since they felt so impunity that, in general, not very much hid very much, they caught a lot of them. The peak of this fishing was in, well, apparently, somewhere around the 9th year, because, well, we have a long investigation, and sentences of the 10th year… that is, well, I think that, on average, investigation is a year for such crimes. There were 344 people convicted for proven hate crimes. This is a lot actually In fact, this is such a figure, by European standards, simply crazy.

Then the number of convicts began to decrease, decrease, well, because in in fact, as if this crime has gone into decline. But last year more precisely, even the year before, the problem came to light that the police were too relaxed early, so to speak, and now this decline in crime in the past year seems to have stopped, that's Russian crime. Precisely because that they were caught less. Why they began to catch less - Well, there may be different explanations. To be honest, I know two basic. Because to catch ... that is, I know exactly what explanation is wrong. It has nothing to do with the protest movement, because it all started before him.

A. NARYSHKIN: That is, it does not mean that they were distracted by ...

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, no, no, it doesn’t mean, because they began to catch less already at 11. I'm saying there's a year's lag between being caught and condemned. AND we already know for sure that in the 11th they began to catch much less. Partly, I think, because the new generation of neo-Nazis has become more serious. treat conspiracies, well, on the experience of their sad predecessors. And secondly, the police here found easy bread for themselves: they mastered the persecution for propaganda on the Internet, well, technically mastered, I would say. Since Russian propaganda on the Internet, its sea just spilled, it is enough to find some such writer, who is in Contact, there, writes nasty things, quickly identify him, the benefit is not difficult, well, and punish. Actually, reporting is fine. as if. And the focus of application has shifted from violent crime.

A. SOLOMIN: There is very little time left, a lot of questions still remain unassigned, so if… well, it's not a blitz, but let's try it in a shorter time. First of all, we are talking about nationalism ... neo-Nazism in Russia, it is only Russian?

A. VERKHOVSKY: No, no, of course, radical There are all sorts of nationalists. Just "neo-Nazism" - not really, maybe good word, but there are all sorts of radical nationalists.

A. NARYSHKIN: Depending on national…

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, depending on how developed this movement is in one place or another. That is developed in Bashkortostan, let's say, it is known.

A. NARYSHKIN: Here is the question of who, perhaps, leads the government structures. You said it's unlikely. But who is the money can allocate for it? Is there any such financial, say, patron?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Oh, you know, it's not very expensive. the thing, to be honest, is to go to rallies from time to time and even more so buy a knife and stab someone. Therefore, money ... usually it is money some sympathetic business. Because we still have nationalism is no longer a young phenomenon, yes, a lot of time has already passed since the end of Soviet power ... I say, young people, they are leaving movement. And where do they go? They rarely change their minds. Well here's the man becomes a businessman, then gives someone money - and that's enough.

A. SOLOMIN: Do such cases often happen when a person leaves? Basically happened, there were such things when a person changes his attitude to the world, there, completely disappears from? ..

A. VERKHOVSKY: Yes, it happens. Here we are just, yes, we dropped this topic, is it possible to sort of re-educate in in some sense. Yes, you can. And there were even cases when people already seriously involved in this matter, then tried to speak publicly, as it were, is to condemn and, well, how to address the youth. But, unfortunately, we it is not developed. In European countries there are such groups, directly working specifically for it.

A. NARYSHKIN: We have less than half a minute remains the last question. Do you admit that in our country will appear, a neo-Nazi party will be registered, which in some time, in a few years, will come to power, that will have seats in the State Duma or, there, in the government, for example?

A. VERKHOVSKY: A party that calls itself neo-Nazi, we have no way will be registered, but the party, which will be full of radical nationalists, we have already registered - this is the Russian nationwide union of Sergei Baburin. And, probably, will be still registered.

A. NARYSHKIN: Will she get something in power?

A. VERKHOVSKY: Well, you know, we don't have very fair elections, so quite difficult to predict. How much they give, so much they will receive. But in fact, according to polls, say, nationalists are like that, if ... there were such polls that some unnamed nationalist party could get, well, there, about 10%. It's a lot.

A. SOLOMIN: Thank you. big. Program "Scenario XXI", Alexander was our guest Verkhovsky, director of the information and analytical center "Sova", we talked about neo-Nazism in Russia. We, Alexey Naryshkin, Alexey Solomin, goodbye until next sunday. All the best.

A. NARYSHKIN: Goodbye.

Sources

• Scenario XXI : Neo-Nazism in Russia // Radio "Echo of Moscow". 2013. May 19. (text)
• Scenario XXI : Neo-Nazism in Russia // Radio "Echo of Moscow". 2013. May 19. (audio)