"Nonhai Girche, Abi venhe"

On September 17-20 in St. Petersburg, a conference of megagratniks was held. Read about the results of the project of megagranes in an interview with the professor of biological sciences of the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology of the University of Michigan (USA), the winner of the first competition of megagrators of 2010, the creator and head of the Evolutionary Genomics Labor Faculty of Bioinformatics and Bioinzhenarya of Moscow State University Alexei Kondrashov . Talked by Natalia Demina .

- How would you appreciate the results of the megagrators program?

-When in 2012 the intermediate results of the work on megagers of the first wave were summed up and some of them were extended, but some were not, the sensations were rather optimistic. I think that at least the projects that were extended were made a lot of meaningful. The current conference (for some reason was given it to the stupid pathos name "Science of the Future") confirms this assessment. There were many interesting messages, both oral and bench. I can’t judge professionally about non -biological work, but basically they look like “completely similar to the real”. And some biological work is certainly excellent. Pavel Pevzner made in the laboratory in St. Petersburg, the SPADES genomic collector began to be used as the main tool in Broad Institute - because it is better than all many competitors.

Although it is actually early to summarize the results. This year, the deadline for financing the extended projects of the first wave expires. The rest continue, and perhaps new ones will open.

“ Maybe you remember when the winners of the first wave megager announced, Boris Stern wrote an article in the Trinity version under the heading “ Bad money went to the worthy ” . Looking back, do you agree with his assessment?

“It's hard for me to judge.” Again, such an assessment requires a more strategic vision than I have ... Megagrators' program is very heterogeneous and affects many areas of science in which I am not a specialist. Nevertheless, I think that in general it is successful. I also do not know for sure what would happen if four years ago megagagant did not give me, but Vasya Ivanov - it would be better if Vasya would have performed or not. But I will not be ashamed to submit a final report.

- Tell us about the scientific achievements of your laboratory ...

- This year we have already published several articles. Work on how crossingover occurs in the body, in which mother's genotypes and folders differ by 25%, has just reached Molecular Biology and Evolution . Work on the genetics of rapid adaptation of fish for fresh water is accepted in PLOS GENETICS . The work with our participation about the mosquito genome, the larvae of which can be dried without harm to their health has just gone into Nature Communications .

Many projects are at different stages of completion. In the near future, Maria Baranova sends (of course, in Nature ... ) an article about a mushroom, which has the highest level of intrapopulation variability among all species studied so far. Soon we will send a description of the genome of diploid buckwheat. Alexei Penin and his comrades finally almost managed to break through the technical difficulties in the analysis of the shepherd’s genome, which is a product of a very recent full-agricultural duplication. It was possible to show that it is not an autopoliploid (i.e., the result of doubling the set of chromosomes of one species), but allopoliploid (i.e., the result of combining sets of chromosomes of different species after interspecific hybridization). And this opens up all sorts of opportunities for evolutionary research.

Maria Logacheva and her group were dissected by the transcription of 46 Baikal Gammaruses. Now we secure the remaining in the refrigerator 25. It is already clear that all these gammaruses are very close to each other, but at the same time it is possible to build their reliable phylogenia. This will be a completely unique resource for studying all esoteric evolutionary issues, and Sergey Naumenko sharpens his teeth on him.

A competition was held at the request for sequencing from the laboratories of Moscow State University. A week ago, a meeting of the tender commission was held, at which academics Gvozdev and Malakhov and Professor Sokolov, Gelfand and Mironov chose 12 of 23 of the applications that we will now be carried out on our equipment. This competition seems to me an extremely useful event for the introduction of new generation sequencing methods in a variety of university works.

- You are very praised for the equipment that you managed to buy for the White Sea Biological Station.

- Of course, since they have not been imprisoned, they should be praised. Because it was absolutely misuse of money ( laughs ). But everything is done in our minds. The megagran was so large that the initial money was excess, and they had to be wisely spent in a short time.

I bought this equipment for the reason that Moscow State University cares little about BBS. Students painted the intestines of sea stars with colored pencils, as in the XIX century. And we bought a confocal microscope there, invested money in a research vessel and equipped a modern molecular laboratory. This modernized both the educational process and scientific work on the BBS.

The last news with the BBS is that we opened a new jellyfish. There are small and inconspicuous hydrode jellyfish, and there are large and beautiful scyphoid jellyfish. It was believed that only two types of large jellyfish are found in the White Sea: eared aurelia and harmony of cyanei. So, DNA analysis showed that there are actually two cyanes. Moreover, when we planted them in various aquariums, each several pieces, then zoologists came, looked and said that there were clear morphological differences between them. But before that, they did not notice these differences for 150 years.

So we sent an article with a description of a new type. They called it Cyanea Tsetlinii , in honor of Alexander Borisovich Zetlin, director of the BBS; Moreover, it was possible to preserve this secret before the celebration of its 60th anniversary. When students made a report after practice, the name of the species on the slides was smeared. Having received a jellyfish during a banquet as a gift, the shocked Ceten went out onto the pier and repeated, peering into the sea distance: “They swim everywhere! ..” Because it is not some kind of transparent worm for you.

- Cool!

- Egor Bazykin described this story. And in total, we opened about a dozen species-two and a few more interesting situations. These studies are led by Tatyana Vladimirovna Neretina at the BBS. Now she is preparing a monograph on the molecular genetic revision of the Fauna of the White Sea, which should become a prototype of how it should be done everywhere over time.

- In what conditions did your laboratory work after the extension of the megaggrant?

- In 2013 - in normal. And in the current - in the ugly. There were problems that I had foreseen when a megager extension was done so that the university itself financed it for the second year. For the first time, my laboratory received a salary in May, then in June, and then only a few days ago, in mid -September. Despite all my complaints, demars and scandals and the formidable calls from the Ministry of Education and Science followed as a result. It seems that Moscow State University is not needed.

Although it is still not clear why they pulled with the financing of our project. After all, it was clear that sooner or later it would have to be paid money - in pursuance of an agreement signed in 2012 V.A. Sadovniki, the Ministry of Education and Science and me. We hoped that I would crumble and sign some bullshit? In any case, the leadership of Moscow State University did not care that young qualified employees, people are completely not rich and for the most part not Muscovites, are sitting without a salary for a long time. True, the ministry says that the situation with the financing of megagrand laboratories is the worst.

- According to your conversations with other megagratniki, how do you estimate the percentage, which laboratories can continue to exist, which laboratories have found funding? Do you have such statistics?

- I think that a significant proportion of megagrand laboratories in one form or another will remain if the general collapse does not occur. Unfortunately, a strange problem arose with obtaining RNF grants to maintain existing laboratories. Some sections of the expert council of the RFF (including mathematical and medical) considered the applications of megagratniki unreasonably, and many of them received new grants. And other sections, including physical and biological, fundamentally rejected our applications.

My application was rejected on the basis of such a “special opinion” of the biological section of the RNF expert council:

“Despite the undoubtedly high scientific level, the relevance of the topic, the applicant’s high scientific authority in the field of evolutionary genetics, his excellent publication activity and high points, the expert council believes that it should not be supported by the fact that the leader (A.S. Kondrashov) has a successful laboratory at the University of Michigan (USA) ... The fundamental position of the Expert Council is that the leader should devote to the head The overwhelming part of his research activity of the Russian laboratory, for which he requests funding for the RSF in the framework of this competition. "

And a few more megagratniks were in the same position. Many of all kinds of petitions and body movements were used, and in St. Petersburg we got the opportunity to directly discuss the situation with A.A. Fursenko and A.V. Khlunov. Our main requirement was the development of a unified RNF policy - to give or not give grants to those who work abroad. The condition for obtaining megagranes was clearly formulated: 4 months of physical presence in Russia annually. And in the RSF there was no single demand - and as a result, each section of the Expert Council was guided by its own “revolutionary legal consciousness”. This, of course, is not democracy, but a mess. Experts must evaluate the scientific advantages of individual applications, and not to develop general rules.

I do not see any sound reasons to make RNF rules more strict than the rules of the megagrators program that work well. If the laboratory existing according to these rules, on which a lot of money was spent, is quite successful, then is it wise to close it, introducing some new requirements? But if the availability of work abroad is recognized as incompatible with receiving RNF grants, at least I will not in vain write 30-page texts in two languages.

Khlunov admitted that there was a shortage, and promised to fix it. Let's hope. So far, I have got into a rather conventive way, a certain amount of money for my laboratory for 2015 (the megagran ends in 2014), so we hope to survive until the next RNF competition. But if the large RNF grants are closed to us, for a long time my laboratory will not last. Many other megagrand laboratories are in the best position, as they are engaged in useful applied affairs. I am a useless evolutionist, although sometimes I have to pretend to be an application.

I want to say that, despite this lining, I consider RNF a very correct innovation. But here it is important that the examination be international, as it was in the competitions of megagrators. In the RNF this year she was not, despite good intentions. Russian natural science, in any case, biology, is generally at a low level, and, left to itself, the grayness will be self -produced.

- It took a year after the announcement of the reform of the Academy of Sciences. How do you generally regard the situation in Russian science?

- In general, I, like all normal people, look with horror at what is happening between Russia and the rest of the world. And with interest I look forward to the moment when Europe stops supplying us with the consumables for “illumin”, after which our scientific feast will quickly stop during the plague. As for the reform of the Academy, its introduction has been postponed, so nothing has happened yet. In addition, since I work in Moscow State University, outside the Academy of Sciences, it should not directly affect me.

With the controllability of Moscow State University, the situation is catastrophic. I used almost the entire vocabulary in negotiations with a variety of authorities. Because when your employees do not pay for months a salary, no longer up to diplomacy. Nothing is done on time, some papers generally disappear without a trace. The reasoning that the university organized in this way is about to take high places in all kinds of ratings, cause only laughter-homeric, malevolent or bitter depending on the mood. So if Moscow State University and other universities will finally seriously reform, I will be with both hands for. As they say, Nekhai Girche, Abi venhe. Although it will not be easy to make Gircha.

- Thank you for the interview!

Published together with Polit.ru.