"Somehow it's all strange"

This conversation took place on January 25, almost two weeks after it became known that the actress of Theater.doc Anastasia Slonina accused Pyotr Pavlensky and Oksana Shalygin of sexual violence, and the actor and director of the same theater Vasily Berezin was beaten by beatings, after which the artist and his comrades -in -arms took the children and left to ask for political shelters to France.

It would be right after a conversation with Peter Pavlensky to give the word Anastasia elephant, but she does not communicate with the press ( the exception was made for “open Russia” ).

In the coming days, Colta.ru plans to publish an interview with Mikhail Ugarov , commenting on the situation by Theater.doc.

- A reason for conversation is quite specific ...

-I do not think that he is somewhat particularly specific; I always said that personal is political. What happened ... Well, of course, I am not glad that I now can’t get into such a large territory as Russia, but, as before, these events themselves showed a lot.

- What do you mean?

- I mean - in what connection some supposedly opposition groups work with law enforcement agencies, with propaganda media, with United Russia; How it all interacts at all. There are some groups, hiding behind the populist slogan “We do not approve of everything bad” (well, of course, anyone will support you if you do not approve of everything bad!), Which, engaged in some kind of activity, by and large simply integrate into the system.

And someone who is really unpredictable, who is difficult to control, who is difficult to influence (well, what we had-we are not related to the educational system, on no one is not dependent on anyone; our actions are difficult to predict, because I tried to live so that when I am going to make a promotion, I was not stopped, as they say, at the door), the regime decides to be eliminated.

- How did you meet Anastasia elephant?

- With this actress? At my lecture. For the first time, I saw her at the lecture that I had in the Theater. doc ". She sat in the front row, after the lecture she came up to get acquainted, introduced herself. Then I forgot about her. And then I had to leave the hospital - I was operated on my knee, after the story, I had a serious injury in the Moscow City Court, the meniscus was torn. There was one person who undertook to give up by car, but in the end could not, and then this actress volunteered to help. She brought us home and invited us to her play. Okay, okay, wonderful: we went out of a sense of gratitude. We looked at the performance that we did not like, there were many questions. After the performance, they said that something we did not really understand what was happening there, but maybe then we will formulate it and somehow, at a meeting, let's say.

Then she began to correspond with Oksana. I tried to make an appointment to discuss the performance, but did not grow together, we constantly postponed. Later, when the incident occurred with this actor of the Theater. DOC ”(Vasily Berezin. - M.M. ), she began to fall asleep Oksana with letters with words of gratitude - they say, we helped her, opened her eyes, she finally realized who works next to her, what scum around.

And then ... she said that cops came to the theater; She asked what to do, how to communicate with them - she could make her an “customer” of an attack on [Berezina]. We then took her to the Agora office at Myasnitskaya. It was just a short consultation. (According to the lawyer Ilnur Sharapov, he and Dmitry Dinze really advised Peter Pavlensky and Anastasia Elephant in his own office, while acting not as employees of the Agora. - M.M. ) She continued to communicate with Oksana - to be honest, not even in the know, until the day she contacted us in the evening and arrived at the living. We spent the evening together, discussed everything, we had a close relationship, then she left.

Two days later, we flew to Warsaw. We had tickets for the sixth [December]; We quietly gathered, left the children at a loved one and flew out of Sheremetyevo. And the eighth was a very strange call. This person, with whom we left the children, said that this actress called him-they say she was looking for us with the police, they are waiting for a day at our house, some statements ...

We all listened to this, asked him to contact her, find out the details, because all this sounded like a heap of delirium. Firstly, we did not see the reasons for the statements, and secondly-what “day waiting for the house”! I have been living for not the first year, I know how the criminal investigation department works. It works as it happened on January 14: there is a guard control, they do not make any difficulty calmly, carefully, without unnecessary movements and noise, without any warnings, just meet people and detain. Why “sit for a day, wait at the house”, when it is known - we did not hide it - that we are in Warsaw?

This man tried to contact her, but she no longer took the phone. Somehow strange, but then we simply ignored it. And on the 14th we fly, and we are accepted.

- You are accepted and taken for interrogation ...

- Yes, we are detained after passport control, they are taken to the Investigative Committee on Bolotnikovskaya, we will find out that there is a statement. It turns out that the 132nd article is charged with us. This is not the 131st article-“rape”, when there is bodily harm, on the basis of which evidence is collected; No, these are "violent actions of a sexual nature." That is, in general, everything that the person who calls the victim denotes in relation to himself as “violent actions”, and that which somehow falls into a spectrum of sexual nature, everything becomes a crime.

And this is a difficult article. The application is written for us two, that is, it turns out that a group of persons - up to ten years in prison. And we immediately become clear to us.

For us-up to ten years of imprisonment in a dirty article (by which you are all ten years to everyone with whom you will meet somewhere in the camp, you will tell you how you have become a victim of operational development), and the children go to the orphanage.

“Have you thought about such a situation before?” You were often asked if you are not afraid for the children - you are making provocative promotions, sooner or later they can put you. And each time you answered: no, I'm not afraid, I will find a way to protect the family .

- So it happened - well, they closed me, well, well, the children write letters to me, I answer them; We took a rest from me for seven months. They could have a rest for a couple of years, they could more - nothing to worry about.

I do not allow myself to think about it in advance. It will be necessary - I will find the opportunity to protect children, but to create such a prospect in advance - to make children a tool of power. I just will not do anything, I will say: "I have children!"

As a result, as I said, it happened: the problem was created - I solved it. Of course, they allowed me to do this. I think and understand that this is not my merit to a large extent - that I have the opportunity to continue to engage in children. Apparently, it seemed to those who were developing all this to give us to leave than to feed us for ten years, to monitor health ... Well, thin work, yes, not clumsy, technically, carefully, without unnecessary sadism. At least we are together now. Which, of course, is good.

“But now you are now not in the territory with which everything that you did in art is still connected.”

- Yes, so I admit that this is a good move from the apparatus of power - and their accomplices. Because it was done by the power apparatus (and in the interests of the power apparatus), but to a large extent made by accomplices.

These are not my assumptions - these are facts. In one bunch, in addition to the power structures and the propaganda media, the representative of the United Russia party was a lawyer Yuri Lysenko. When I said on the rain that this lawyer is the head of the party project ( “Comfortable legal environment” ), he began to lie that he had nothing to do with the party, he just once participated in some round table for a long time; But you go to the site of "United Russia" - and here it is! His interview, his language - as he speaks, as he thinks ... The choice of a lawyer is a balanced decision; Where did the actress who went to the Agora?

In the same bunch, the theater administration - in order to see it, you can see how they began to say the words: their language has ceased to differ from the language of psychiatrists and prosecutors that I met. The screenwriter Lisovsky (the commissar of the productions of Theater. DOC Vsevolod Lisovsky. - M.M. ) praises the Ministry of Internal Affairs, says that it is necessary to overcome distrust of power structures, law enforcement agencies that need to help, cooperate. A little strange: this is not characteristic of directors, screenwriters-they should think in some other categories.

Further - the facts again: cops appear in the theater, and suddenly the opposition theater (and it is very dependent on the district administration, on all kinds of fire, security and other services there) expands, opens a new site on the Elektrosavodskaya (according to the artistic director of the theater Mikhail Ugarov and the director of Elena Gremina , the site - the “gift” of the honorary, which provided the theater. ). And on January 13, the theater receives a friendly plot for NTV . I don’t know who you need to be, in order not to understand what role NTV plays in the state! I saw plots with me, with other artists, and then I looked specially - as an advertisement: “Here, look, this is the best and most radical theater in Russia.” Is that just like that?

And who oversees all this - I do not know and will never know, and none of us, I think, will recognize in the next decades. Of course, assumptions remain assumptions, because no one showed me any papers, documents. But when there are so many coincidences, I think that this is all for a reason.

There is another point that can also make you think ...

- Which?

- The actor of this theater (Vasily Berezin. - M.M. ) beat, beat his head against the bath, spat in the face, strangled, cut, mocked this actress. The whole theater knew about this; This was one of the reasons for our conflict with him. I open the messenger in the morning-and I have some rubbish there, some Hamlo writes to me, insults me, accuses me that I have a relationship with his girlfriend. And I understand that this is the actress, only I saw her actually before this three times in my life. I tell him: you are probably mistaken - he continues to be rude to me, threaten. Well, then then meet if you want it so much. I come to the theater, there are actors, I begin to find out from them what kind of person is this. And they tell me that he is a sadist, that he beat the actress. Oksana, with whom we arrived, says: P .... She immediately said that she was very bad for this.

We met with him, he began to wave his hands, well ... I had to beat him a little. Well, I beat him a little. Oksana then even demanded that he ask all women forgiveness. I demanded that he promise that she would not beat women anymore - let him at least say, let him say it out loud. He asked for forgiveness, promised that there would be no one else to beat. It seems that they parted on this. It was like this for me: a person was going on a girl who is weaker than him, and now he was beaten a little.

And then this Lisovsky immediately appears and the law enforcement agencies begin to tighten. Well, good ... we are not at all interested in talking with the cops, but they will find it - they will find it, we will talk, we have lawyers. We and I took the actress to the lawyers, after that she flooded us with words of support and appreciation. And she began to especially persistently strive for some meeting.

And the question is: why are they there, in the theater, so selective in a moral assessment? If they are such moral experts, if they are for everything good and against everything bad, why did they not do anything when such sadism took place next to them, a man beat a woman who is physically weaker? Where is the police? Where is the statement? Well, since they love it that. No! This is also strange. They are kind of like an opposition theater, they have only problems from the police, and here they cooperate with her. I do not understand, this is some kind of contradiction!

- You can recall the group “War”, which in 2012, despite its attitude to the authorities, turned to the Moscow City Court (a lawsuit against director Andrei Gryazev for 3 million rubles).

- Yes, just look at the “War” group - they took an openly sustainable position. They have our Crimea and southeast of Ukraine-part of Russia, and Putin is the king of all lands.

- And they became the same as having lived in Europe ...

- This is not the point that they lived in Europe and their eyes have changed - nothing like that. “War” and collars are always ideologically oriented towards Edward Limonov. Look a bit of Limonov’s biography, his relationship with the authorities, this is “I, Edichka”. Vorotnikov’s life and Falcon are tracing paper from Limonov’s life; By and large, the “war” is its epigones.

“Nevertheless, there is a kind of cherry truth in this of their disappointment with Europe, where they fled for freedom, and stumbled upon the bureaucracy.” Are you not afraid that you will face it too?

- Power - power everywhere. I have no illusions.

- And how then do you see your further actions? In order to get political asylum, you will have to break some of your habits. For example, the procedure itself is very bureaucratic, and you will have to obediently participate in what you yourself called the “movement of papers” - filling out the profiles, statements ...

- Wait, what have I been in Russia all these years, except for bureaucratic processes?

“You did not deal with them for the sake of receiving any benefits for yourself.” As far as I understand, your goal was to open bureaucratic mechanisms. But if you are right now as you did in Russia, you will be implemented in the French bureaucracy and try to hack it, are you afraid that you will fly in the end with your refuge?

-No, now I will not be introduced into it, as you say, and try to hack it somehow. I will just tell a story that is known to everyone. What I already told investigators, psychiatrists, and journalists. I will also meet with officials and tell the story. Well, then let's see what the decision they make. I am always open to everyone and to everything.

- You will have to prove to them that you are pursued in Russia for political reasons. Your request should be justified, you must give evidence that you are in danger.

- And what is not justified by me? Yes, I, in my opinion, is extremely justified!

- At the moment you are pursued?

- We are faced with a reservation. For seven months in prison, I saw many people who were stipulated under the 132nd article. This is often used by scammers and extortionists, this is a fairly common scheme. As soon as such a statement appears, they come home to a person, handcuffs put on him, arrest him and then begin to understand him gradually. For a year, one and a half, two are versed, and acquittal of sentences, conditional terms, house arrests - this does not happen according to this article. And they let us fly away.

We do not have registration in Moscow, but they did not arrest us, although when the judge sent me to the pre -trial detention center, she referred to the lack of a residence permit. We are waiting for the convoy, the convoy does not come, and the senior investigator tells us: they say, I need to collect all the evidence, you can’t rush, the main thing for me is to be objective, but you have a difficult matter, so everything, I let you go. They do not take a recognizance not to leave, just “go, but by the first call is a mandatory turnout”, with such a kind of kindness. The scene is not examined, although they should.

- They should, but really do not like. A huge number of cases of sexual violence simply do not reach the court, often they don’t even want to accept the victims. The police do not like to do such things, many human rights activists working in this area are talking about this. Maybe this is the matter?

- I saw this from the other side, from the prison: I saw how many people stipulated under this article are sitting. These are not some maniacs or real rapists-they are separately contained, this is such a special category. But there are many those who are stipulated. Maybe somewhere they do not want to take statements ... Maybe when a completely egregious incort of extortion. I do not know how this happens, but I saw people who have a real trouble after such statements.

- This is logical, because if you want to stipulate a person, then you will not only submit an application, but also do everything to give the matter. Many scammers work in conjunction with police officers. The usual victim is much more complicated.

- Then I have a question: where does this amount of the agreed, whom I met? I saw another situation, being from the other side. I saw people whom this car chews. A man sits in a pre -trial detention center, and the escort says to him: I’ve been working here for 20 years already, you work, you have a futile business, you will not be any softening, you will leave for this article for a very long time.

There is a strange situation. The statement [Slonin] submitted only the next day. Before this, the performance also played (or rehearsal, I don’t remember), then in the evening I calmly went to the police ...

- Well, why "calm"? We do not know this.

- You can explain everything to everyone, but I'm talking about facts. Didn't you go right away? No, I didn’t go. Why didn't you go?

- It just does not raise questions for me. Many are afraid to turn to the police, do not trust that it is not surprising. Сама процедура подачи заявления мучительна и унизительна: приходится вспоминать и пересказывать обстоятельства случившегося, это стресс.

- Fine. У меня тогда другой вопрос. Если мы так социально опасны, почему она сразу едет в гости тогда?

— А почему вы ее пригласили?

— Мы ее не просто пригласили. Я же говорил: она искала поддержки, дружбы, отношений. В какой-то момент она связалась с Оксаной, мы сказали: «Да, хорошо, приезжай». She arrived.

Насилия не было. Я сразу сказал, чтобы не кормить вообще ничьих фантазий, — насилия не бы-ло! Не было ничего даже похожего, вот хотя бы приближающегося к насилию! Потому что я хорошо себе представляю, что такое насилие — когда ты заставляешь, когда ты запугиваешь, кого-то избиваешь… Мы расстались друзьями.

— Друзья Слониной утверждают, что она ушла от вас с порезами на руках и в разрезанной одежде.

— Ее руки были уже порезаны. Мне рассказывали актеры, что ее вот этот побитый молодой человек тоже резал. Я думаю, что она и сама режется, скорее всего… Она была вся порезанная. Мы списали на странности — ну, актриса.

У нее в фейсбуке висела фотография с порезанными руками. Сейчас ее уже нет, под ней был комментарий какого-то человека, что он видел это фото раньше, задолго до всей этой истории. На самом деле многие эту фотографию видели, но кто сейчас скажет как есть? Сейчас идет такая информационная кампания…

— Кстати, по поводу кампании. Случаи, когда власть использует сексуальные скандалы для борьбы с неугодными, известны. И у всех этих случаев есть одна общая черта: максимальная огласка, чтобы не только посадить, но и дискредитировать. Но ни Слонина, ни представители власти не афишировали случившееся. История произошла еще в декабре, а мы узнали о ней только сейчас, от тебя самого и Оксаны. Почему вы решили рассказать об этом?

— Потому что другую сторону устраивает ситуация, когда нас просто нет. Мы не можем вернуться на территорию, с которой у нас многое было связано, — а с той стороны такая удовлетворенная тишина. Мы даже не можем понять до конца, какие-то подробности узнать.

Я всегда действовал так: любую попытку зайти ко мне со стороны правоохранительных органов предавал огласке. Благодаря этому многое получалось. Они этого не любят, потому что, когда ситуация становится прозрачной, им надо что-то говорить. Сейчас произошло то, что происходило и прежде. И как интересно: в этой истории столько сторон — театр, силовые структуры, адвокат — все они ни разу не подали голос, и только сейчас выясняются подробности. То есть даже в этом видно, что их действия скоординированы. Почему силовики ничего не сказали?

— Действительно, почему?

— Возмущенная администрация театра ничего [не сказала]. How so?

— Может, они и не хотели выносить это на публику? Может, это действительно просто частное обвинение?

— Если это частное обвинение, почему мы спокойно выезжаем, приезжаем? А если доследственная проверка, почему же нас технично встретили и приняли в аэропорту? Зачем отвезли в Следственный комитет? А после спектакля в аэропорту (разыгранного вполне по их правилам!) нам потом дали уйти — и тишина! 12 января адвокат Ольга Динзе сама звонила следователю, спрашивала, что вообще происходит. Что это за доследственная проверка по тяжкой статье, которая длится месяцами? «Ну да, мы провели полиграф потерпевшей, вам, наверное, тоже скоро»!

Почему вдруг появляется у актрисы адвокат, который одновременно является руководителем проекта партии? Why? Это, конечно, можно оспаривать, не соглашаться!

— Я просто задаю вопросы.

— А я говорю о фактах. Вот такие довольно странные факты.

— Для тебя важно общественное мнение? Ты намерен что-то делать, чтобы снять с себя подозрения в совершении этого преступления в глазах общества?

— Какого общества? Адаптантов? Мне их мнение, честно говоря, вообще… это какая-то масса полулюдей.

Вообще борьба за общественное мнение, «борьба за именование» — это то, чем я занимался всегда. Это процесс политического искусства, и он продолжается. Но всегда были те, кто разбирался в ситуации, и те, кто поддерживал слова власти. Говорили: «да, он преступник», «да, он сумасшедший», кто угодно, главное — не художник.

— Но есть и те, кто колеблется.

— Да пусть колеблются! Всегда кто-то колеблется. Часть процесса политического искусства — это артикуляция; я это делал, я это делаю. С тобой, например, сейчас разговариваю — мог бы вообще этого не делать, но для чего-то разговариваю. Я с этим — мнением — как работал, так и продолжаю работать.

Плохо то, что сейчас огромная территория и весь связанный с ней контекст оказались для нас закрыты. Хорошо — что многое стало понятно. Я всегда стремился к тому, чтобы действительность проявлялась и становилась видимой и понятной. И сейчас стала видна вот эта вот чудовищная часть действительности: часть группы, которая именует себя оппозицией, является пособником режима. Как КПРФ и ЛДПР, которые себя тоже называют оппозицией. Но только если КПРФ и ЛДПР я вообще не воспринимал, то к [несистемной] оппозиции относился более серьезно. И вот только сейчас мне стало окончательно ясно, чтó вообще происходит. Это чудовищная ситуация. Really.

Тех, кто принципиально не согласен с парадигмой режима, просто устраняют. Это как история про романтиков, которые хотят стать честными полицейскими; начитавшись детективов, идут работать в полицию, собираются приносить пользу обществу. Продержаться можно максимум год.

— Я спросила про общественное мнение вот почему. Одни считают, что какая бы информация о тебе ни распространялась, на качество и смысл твоих работ это не влияет. То есть либо «Павленский — хороший художник», либо «Павленский — плохой художник», либо «Павленский — не художник, а сумасшедший» независимо от того, изнасиловал ты кого-то или на тебя написали донос. А для других твои акции были очень прочно ассоциированы с твоим медийным образом, с тем, что ты говорил, и с тем, что о тебе было известно. Для них твоя жизнь — твоя борьба за свободу, твой быт, твои отношения — все это было как бы гарантом подлинности твоего искусства. И теперь, когда твое имя оказалось замешано в сексуальном скандале, восприятие твоих акций этой частью аудитории меняется.

— Есть текст «Героизмы» , который я написал, находясь в Бутырке. Я слово «герой» считаю для художника оскорбительным. Героизация — это инструментализация. Павлик Морозов был героем — пока он был нужен Советскому Союзу. Я писал об этом еще год назад, мой текст публиковали, об этом было известно. А теперь начинается — «в наших глазах рушится герой». Какой герой? Некий инструмент, который ко мне отношения не имел?

Как и по каким принципам я живу — я об этом говорил и писал подробно. Есть тексты, которые издал Илья Данишевский (книга «О русском акционизме», АСТ, «Ангедония. Проект Данишевского», 2016 г. — М.М. ), — там вообще в подробностях описан каждый шаг. Если интересно, как я живу, там все описано. У меня ничего не изменилось, как там описано, вот так я и живу. Никакого противоречия нет.

— То, как ты живешь, то, что о тебе известно, — важно для понимания твоего искусства?

— Это важно для понимания такой вещи — над которой я размышляю, с которой я работаю, — как расщепление. Люди расщеплены: на работе они одно, дома другое. То они борцы с капиталом и собственностью, то прицениваются, во что им лучше вложиться. С этой точки зрения — важно, но тут я ни на шаг не подвинулся.

Но если посмотреть историю искусства, я немного не понимаю, почему художник должен вдруг соответствовать какому-то морально-психологическому шаблону. Когда это вообще и где было? Караваджо, Франсуа Вийон… Я смеюсь над теми, кто [сейчас обо мне] говорит, что в их глазах рухнул герой. Что у них там рухнуло? У них могло рухнуть только то, что они сами себе напридумывали. Как бы я ни жил — это не может влиять на искусство, на само высказывание.

Какой-нибудь художник может жить буржуазно, как Люсьен Фрейд, но от этого его искусство не становится «плохим».

— А расщепления тут нет?

— Нет, это просто другое искусство.

— Хочу все же уточнить одну вещь. Ты утверждаешь, что в тот вечер, когда Анастасия Слонина была у вас в гостях, насилия не было…

— Отношения близкие были, насилия не было.

— Ты можешь допустить, что произошло что-то, что она восприняла как насилие, что для нее — было насилием?

- No. No. Если бы что-то было… Люди по-другому расстаются.

— Сейчас, в твоей текущей ситуации, насколько далеко вперед ты загадываешь, планируешь?

— Так же, как и раньше, я не строю никаких долгосрочных планов. Считаю, что это глупость, что это бессмысленно, потому что политическая ситуация меняется, в жизни тоже все меняется стремительно. В тюрьме я видел людей, у которых были огромные бизнесы и планы — и вот человек сидит, и ближайшие пять-десять-пятнадцать лет у него будет совсем другая жизнь. Моя собственная жизнь это подтверждает.

— То есть ты рассматриваешь вариант экстрадиции?

— Да какой угодно рассматриваю.