"We are not fools"

The recording of the conversation of the head of Rosneft Igor Sechin and the former Minister of Economic Development Alexei Ulyukaev, which sounded in court over the latter, can be considered a document of the era. The proven that Ulyukaev allegedly extorted a bribe from Sechin, the record became a rare evidence of the relationship between people from the highest echelons of the Russian government, extremely closed from society.

A basket with sausages, tea and wine, a jacket for the minister attracted special attention of an amazed audience. But the fact of clarification of relations between such people in an open trial is also indicative.

Another loud court of recent times is the process of the director of the Gogol Center Theater Kirill Serebrennikov, accused of embezzlement of budget funds. When the matter only appeared, the director, as it seemed, stood up by Vladimir Putin himself, who said “fools” - words attributed to the initiators of the case. Three months later, Serebrennikov was detained and placed by the court under house arrest. And numerous performances of the most famous cultural figures did not change the situation.

A few years ago, when the “May 6 case” unfolded and the participants in the demonstration on Bolotnaya Square in Moscow, an overclocked police, could hear that they were planting unknown people. Now, it seems, the time has come for demonstration processes.

Olga Romanova , the head of the "Russia-sitting"-a human rights organization that helps convicts and their families-however, cannot completely agree with the fact that famous and influential people had not previously judged, and cites Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Alexei Navalny or Evgenia Vasilyeva-a senior official of the Ministry of Defense, convicted due Sitting):

The arrests continue and are related to the struggle for influence and power

- To begin with, in 2003 Khodorkovsky was arrested - it was probably the very first significant signal, that we did not have untouchables. There were attempts to plant Navalny, there was a process, there was a sentence. The Rosoboronexport case - the current Minister of Defense nearly sat. As for the current matters - this, of course, is a different round. It's not about fame. Fame was never a big obstacle, but in some a small way defended. To come to Serebrennikov, like Ulyukaev, it was necessary to have very serious motives. Much has changed, we have now the main newcomer for criminal cases, a shadow newsmaker, became Igor Ivanovich Sechin. And what, for example, is happening with Bashneft, MTS and AFK System in the courts, is a serious call ( Bashneft, by the court’s decision, was removed from the AFK “system” in favor of the state, and the company's owner Vladimir Yevtushenkov was placed for house arrest for three months. Then the “Bashneft” was sold “Rosneft”. Later in the Rosneft claim was arrested AFK "System" of the MTS promotion - approx . With what is happening in Rusnano, the arrest of Andrei Gorkov is not the first arrest in Rusnano ( Gorkov-the top manager led by Anatoly Chubais of the company-was accused of abuse of powers.-approx. RS ). Or Cyril Serebrennikov. Given his connections with the liberal wing [of power structures] of culture, for example, with Sergey Kapkov ( former head of the Moscow Culture Department. - Note. RS ), a well -known person, we can say that the Sechinsky is behind this case. Let's remember the troubles of Victor Vekselberg. Evgeny Olkhovik and Boris Weinzikher ( top managers of the company's companies. -Approx. RS) have been sitting for almost a year in fairly difficult conditions. Mikhail Slobodin, ex-head of Vimpelcom ( passing in the same case of bribery in the Republic of Komi.-Note RS), was put on the federal wanted list. Such arrests continue and are connected, of course, with the struggle for influence and power.

A blow to what is called "family"

-Do you think that Sechrennikov’s business can somehow stand “Sechinsky”?

- I believe that the Serebrennikova case is not a matter of the world star Kirill Semenovich Serebrennikov directly. This is a matter where, for example, Tikhon Shevkunov, a well -known priest, an influential person ( Shevkunov is called the "confessor of Vladimir Putin." - NPI approx ). Here in opposite positions are people associated with Russian culture. Still, we are talking about the affairs of 2013-14, when Sergey Kapkov was in charge of this direction, and Kapkov is popular, political and in many ways associated with Roman Abramovich and what is called "Family", "Tanya-Valya" ( the environment of the first president of Russia Boris Yeltsin.-TRO-NOT ). Therefore, I think, there is a large element and a pre -election attack, “we don’t have untouchables”, as it was with Khodorkovsky - now we have no untouchables in the stars of world culture. I think a blow is struck by what is called "family".

It came to the court, write it, there will be no excuse

- The affairs of Khodorkovsky and Navalny, which you mentioned, in the public consciousness were associated with Putin’s personal decision. That is, this is a vertical where no sentence of Khodorkovsky and Navalny without a word Putin can be issued. This is not a matter of judge's competence. And in the affairs of Serebrennikov and Ulyukaev, some duality arises. Has the judicial system stopped being part of the vertical? Is there "towers" now too?

- In the judicial system, everything is much simpler, there are no towers there. And I do not believe in the existence of Putin as such - not in the sense of a person, but in the sense of a face that intervenes in such details, but I sacredly believe in the collective Putin. Collective Putin exists, called differently, accepts different look. As for the courts - those cases on which decisions have already been made reach the courts, the judges are perfectly oriented in this - since it has come to them, there can be no excuses. And then they act, as they say, strictly by internal conviction. Unless it can be agreed-mainly, of course, with Olga Egorova ( Chairman of the Moscow City Court.-Approx. RS )-term, more or more. For example, Evgenia Vasilieva received 5 years of general regime. And what? That is, everything is slowly reduced if the judge went too far. Everything is decided now at the investigation level, at the level of Alexander Bastrykin ( head of the Investigative Committee of Russia. - Approx. RS ). If the investigation sends the indictment to the prosecutor's office, the prosecutor's office approves him, then the judge stamps the decision. Not a single sentence, by and large, is different from the indictment, approved by the prosecutor’s office and written by the investigation. Therefore, all attention to the investigation now. It came to court, so everything, write is gone, there will be no excuse.

Go to complain to "dad"? Get it

“But the investigation should also listen to someone?” Or is it always listening, relatively speaking, to the "Sechinsky"? Or the so -called "Sislib", "system liberals" can also affect? Where is this struggle within the collective Putin?

- The struggle within the collective Putin is also externally, it can be tracked. Look at the Putin’s “fools”, said aloud, in relation, apparently, employees of the Investigative Committee. This meant that if Bastrykin swallows "fools", then it would be a fool. Naturally, a big struggle went. The prosecutor’s office is another “tower”, not friendly to the Investigative Committee. The Investigative Committee all the time bothers its powers, is seriously intensifying. And the work went - to publicly prove to Putin, to the specific Putin. “Power” Putin says: “You know, we are not fools, for a moment are not fools. We are strong, we are smart, we know what we are looking for, you can’t complain about the“ dad ”? Get it.” Pay attention, Chubais was exactly the same answer: “Ah, I still reached the“ pope ”, there are normal movements by Leonid Melamed and Svyatoslav Ponurov ( former top managers of Rusnano, accused of embezzlement and released recently from house arrest and pre-trial detention center. We will arrest. " This is what is called a "replied", excuse me for this expression.

- Does this struggle have a supreme referee? Serebrennikov’s case, decision on Ulyukaev-can someone intervene and say: the fight ended 1: 0 in favor of those?

- I think today there are no such people. Today it is a freestyle struggle on the carpet, and under the carpet, God knows what. But the arbitrators are also changing. It happens with an arbiter of one of the Sislibs, there is Kudrin. Now the supreme referee, rapidly increasing, is Sechin. All this can change, as it changed at the time when Khodorkovsky was released-Sechin did not even have time to make some kind of his own decision, to take some actions. Someone can intercept the initiative. The collective Putin is good than bad - it is quite difficult to influence him and predict his behavior.

Stole, did not steal - it doesn't matter at all

- In a recent article on Carnegie, you described the judicial system along with law enforcement agencies as some closed caste, which is self -processed, organizes the field of life for itself, and this field expands. There may be their amateur performances in high -profile affairs, or are they listening to the signals from above?

- Of course, they listen to the signals. Our courts are mostly standing on the stirrup and are waiting for not to miss any important solution-by election, admission-a-term for them, a decision on Bashneft, and large solutions for the state assurance of a large private business. I am sure that we will observe the Lukoil case because this is the last remaining large private business. These decisions on the state of all are the most important decisions that the judges should legitimize. Therefore, they can optionally do anything - it is unrighteous to judge, to judge illiterate, turn a blind eye to bribes, kickbacks and so on - this is all an optional. And when the affairs of famous people arise, with broad ties, capabilities - judges, the Investigative Committee, and the prosecutor’s office look very carefully, realizing that it is impossible to make a mistake now. Therefore, everything that happens has nothing to do with law. We can disassemble as much as you like, the rights of Serebrennikov or to blame whether it was correctly disposed of the state funds or wrong - it does not matter at all. If he was all in the toga, or he has small violations, or he has large violations, stole, did not steal - it doesn’t matter at all, it does not matter, it is important what decision will be made.

The man of the universe controls, and you are here with your miserable people

- In the system of personalist power there is an idea that we must reach the king, the king will decide in fairness. What is, in fact, a well -known person means that it will reach the king. And now, it turns out, it does not matter what society thinks - this is not included in the consideration?

- It is included in the consideration with another sign. Knocking to the king is bad. If you reach the king, they immediately give you another answer. You walked, asked for - get an answer that it would be even worse. Do not go to the king, do not ask the king, it will hurt you for this. "Ay-ah" go to the king. Hands to you, and on the head, if you go to the king. Do not distract a person from important supranational affairs, a person of the Universe runs, and you go here with your miserable people and requests. Do not go to the king - an obvious signal. And insofar, since our society is amorphous, now they are no longer going to protest about arrests - people are still important to survive, everyone has difficult the situation, there is no money, the products are expensive. Nothing. It seems to me that now this attitude: "They will come to me, they will come to you, they will come to him, then such a fate. God forbid, so that they do not come, and if they come, what to do, we will sit."

Three years in common - it means that they did not follow

- You mentioned Vasiliev, who almost did not sit. And now both Ulyukaev and Serebrennikov-under house arrest, still the difference with the fact that many people find themselves in jail. That is, there are any concessions? In the case of Ulyukaev - maybe people who make a decision are projected? Roughly speaking, Sechin thinks that if he comes for him so that he was sitting at home?

- I do not think that Sechin believes that they will come for him. There, in the mountains of power, it seems to me that such thoughts do not come to anyone. Nevertheless, of course, there is a recognition system of “your own-alien”, purely mental-social. Of course, Serebrennikov to any judge is more “their own” than an unknown accountant. Vasilieva - more of his own and understandable, Ulyukaev - how not to enter the position, we will all be there. Judges and investigators see everything perfectly and understand: today you are here, tomorrow there. This is also a trade item. For example, we agreed to give Petrov, Ivanov, Rabinovich "for the seized", to enroll him on time under house arrest. The judge reads a strict sentence - to give two years of general regime in the colony and take into account the deadline for being under house arrest. That is, a person is free. And to give three years of general regime - it means that they did not follow.

Became a dragon -like one

- Returning to the struggle of the "towers". You can come up with something like such an interpretation of events: Sechin won Ulyukaev, someone tried to make Sichin understand that he was wrong, and he dealt the next blow, showing Serebrennikov that it was omnipotent?

- Yes, I do not think that the kindest Igor Ivanovich thinks such categories. I think his categories are simpler here: you, Smerd, though the minister, dared to talk to me? Do you tell me that? In general, who are you? Shoot. So that others are disgusting. Look how much after the case of Ulyukaev Sechin, and so overgrown with thunderclouds, the dragon -shaped became. Of course, scary - if I can, which means that he can do everything at all. I think, with the "family", someone stepped on that little finger, and the FAS team was given.

- That is, with Serebrennikov - is it indicative?

- With Serebrennikov, of course, an indicator. And Ulyukaev is an indicator: do not laugh, we don’t care who you are.

- Is it possible to say that on the eve of the re -election of Vladimir Putin for the next period, the system went into the regime of clarification of relations through the courts? We are surprised to see the transcript of the conversations of Sechin and Ulyukaev, some things come to the world. Does the court acquire some new dimension-actually the main action of modern Russia?

- The court is generally very interesting. It’s good that the people began to go to the courts, again began. I must say that the courts were incendiary before - at least Pavlensky’s court, remember, with prostitutes ?

- Well, Pavlensky turned it into a performance.

- Remember the “swamp business”, it was really interesting. You have to go to the courts. Economic courts are terribly interesting. In the courts, a lot of things are happening. Go to the courts, especially if you are a writer, screenwriter, director, it is better to sit at first from the audience so that there are no illusions.

He burned the bridges and continues to burn them further

-I meant that the struggle of the elites was considered a fight under the carpet: someone did not get along with someone-as a result of the hardware struggle, he resigned. And here is a public clarification of relations between Sichin and Ulyukaev in an open trial.

- It’s true, it was difficult to imagine. But we live in an amazing country where much, that it was difficult to imagine yesterday, today is quite reality. This is true, a completely unique thing. But pay attention, it is interested in exactly the same people who already have no illusions. They don’t talk about this on the TV, editorials do not write about this. The general public does not care, but the narrow audience already knew. Another thing is that it crawled out into the public plane, but it could not but come out. Ulyukaev decided when even at the preliminary meeting he said that this was a special services case, that this was a provocation, and accused Sechin directly of organizing the case. He burned the bridges and continues to burn them further. His behavior is absolutely natural, absolutely competent - to die, so with music. He understands that there is no road back.

- And the situation in the elite has changed so much that they are no longer able to agree inside, it spills out and the court turns out to be the place where everything happens?

- Yes, the courts begin to be interesting again. In the end, loud names sound. We still move on loud processes, we will not hear yet, but this will not have consequences, unfortunately. Because we are so accustomed to our own absurdity that we can’t surprise us with anything.