"It makes no sense to solve the ax problem separately"

Interview with sociologist Daniil Alexandrov - about teenage aggression and what to do with her

Over the past week, in two Russian schools at once-in Perm and Ulan-Ude -teenagers attacked teachers and schoolchildren with cold weapons. Medusa journalist Ekaterina Krongauz talked with a specialist in adolescence, the deputy director of the Higher School of Economics in St. Petersburg Daniil Alexandrov about where aggression arises from adolescents, and also who should deal with this problem.

-If a gloomy 12-year-old child is sitting at my house and says all questions that everything is fine, and then he locks himself in the room and listens to depressive music,-I need to be afraid that in two hours it will cut women and children with an ax?

- Any person who looks at one point and listens to depressive music needs help. But this does not mean that he will jump out the window if it is open, or takes an ax. You always need to take care of your loved ones when there is a suspicion that they are sad and bad. But immediately, they should not be afraid that they shoot everyone around.

- All psychologists advise: talk with children about any problems. And how to talk to them if they do not want? Or if it doesn’t work, like most parents with adolescents?

- This is true. The best that parents can do for their child is to find friends for him. This is also difficult to do, because children choose for themselves, but we need peers-frieces or acquaintances who can help him. Friends and friends begin to play in adolescence a much larger role than parents. It would be nice to find adolescents of older friends so that they can communicate. This is a very common tradition. When they work with Latin American teenagers in America, intervention is made through senior cousins ​​or second cousins. They are role models. My New York colleague explained to me that in Jewish families you need to speak with parents, and in Latin American-with cousins.

- And in Russian families with whom to speak?

- It's hard to say, but best of all - older teenagers. They are a source of influence.

- Do they need to send them to your children?

- For example. If there is a cousin, you can ask him. At least he will be able to better find out if there is a reason for concern.

- Who is responsible if at the age of 12 a person cuts others with a knife? About teenagers who arranged a terrorist attack at the Columbine school, they say that mother did not notice that one of them has clinical depression. But after all, there are many clinical depression, and not everyone shoots at others - we do not even know about many depression. The idea to transfer responsibility from you, a teenager, to some kind of “condition” that makes you cut and shoot is not harmful?

- People generally control themselves poorly. But in adolescents this is especially pronounced. Emotional motivation and ability to action in adolescents are very high. And self -control and regulation of behavior are very low. This is a dangerous period of time. About this there is even a popular book “Teenage brain”, it describes why adolescents are neurobiologically prone to uncontrolled behavior. Sorry for the comparison - small children, how many of them do not put them on the pot, they will still write in their pants, because they have not yet learned to neurobiologically control their bladder. So in a teenager - they want and can much more than before, and control falls.

The question of responsibility is a moral question. Of course, parents believe and must consider themselves responsible. According to some rules, they are considered responsible legally and psychologically for the child. And they must follow this, they should help the child and see that he needs help. If not yourself, then with the help of older friends or doctor. Our problem is that we have a poorly developed psychological teenage care, few competent psychologists. Our psychology blooms like a hundred colors, anti -scientific practices.

- And what about other countries?

- For example, the task of Finnish schools is to support lagging and falling out of the process and life. Accordingly, they are aimed at identifying problems. The Russian school is focused on success, it is interested in the high achievements of students: the Olympiad and all that. But you need to understand that the school can do little. In terms of influence on adolescents, peers are in the first place. Then the family. Then the school is in third place, not higher. The contribution of the school to the regulation of adolescents behavior is very low. But usually peers take up school. Therefore, the task of the school, teachers is to see with whom the child communicates with, what mood and relationship reign at school. And they do not always follow this.

We conducted a study in the Kaluga region. It followed: the larger the school, the more aggression in it. Our explanation is this: in small rural schools, all children are in sight. Both in the village in sight and at school in sight. All the problems that are is solved faster. You can always find control methods: house, school, neighbors.

- The less society, the less risk?

- Well, this is exactly the case for bullying. The denser than society, the less constant persecution.

- Because in a large school you can not notice the most?

- I have only a hypothesis: large schools should attract parents who give students there. They think more about the educational component and educational results, suggesting that the parents themselves will solve the rest of the problems. The larger the school, the more teachers. Responsibility is smeared, no one is responsible for general problems. When few teachers, everyone is involved in life the same. In a small organization, it will be more noticeable that a person has a problem. And in the corporation you can not notice for a very long time. In large schools and social teachers will not help very much.

- Fine. But if you already have a teenager and there is no contact. Still, there are symptoms by which you can understand that your specific teenager will not approach drugs, will not commit suicide or murder. After all, this should not be characteristic of any teenager?

- Statistically you can not be afraid. All adolescents have difficult times, and with an ax runs one by a million. But still, if parents have no contact with the child and they cannot help him, we must try to find a psychologist who will consult them. Because you need to teach parents to talk with the child how to give advice, how to help. This is a complex science.

There is such a book by Richard Nisbett Mindware. It tells the story of how, after September 11, people from all over the country flew out of the country who, left and right, began to advise everyone who experienced stress. After that, there was statistics that people who passed this counseling, depression was deeper than those who did not pass. Urgent low -quality assistance is worse than its absence. But this can be understood only by conducting a large -scale study. What helps now can be harmful in long distances. Therefore, I cannot give advice to everyone to go to a psychologist. But this is the right advice.

-At some point, a psychologist appeared in each school. And now all the dogs will probably be put on them again - they say, they did not look and did not work. What is the problem with them - they are bad specialists or in Russian schools no one wants to talk to them?

- No, in Russian schools this is not pointless. There is no such school in the world where they would be meaningless. But there are several problems. We have no habit of solving problems with a psychologist. It is necessary to advise people what they are organically ready for. Here Latino American are ready to talk with the older cousins. Someone is ready to talk with priests.

- And ours with whom are they ready to talk?

- Russian people are ready to speak with friends for vodka. In this sense, friends of a teenager - a mechanism is better than a psychologist. This does not mean that we should not fight for psychologists who could work in our life.

- Do adolescents need to provide each other's psychological assistance?

- This also needs to be done. The most effective programs that reduce aggression in schools are aimed at teaching adolescents how to behave in a conflict situation.

- Do teenagers teach mediation in Russia?

- No, it was invented in Finland and introduced around the world. In the USA it is. But all this does not cancel the fact that our school psychologists are very poorly trained. They can even be theoretically saved, but do not know how to use the theory correctly. I saw several cases when young psychologists came to school, intervened in some kind of conflict and did only worse. They themselves still have no experience and are prone to manipulations, which often should not be used.

- And what to do with school psychologists?

- We need programs that will form them.

-Does this mean that in our realities and our latitudes we need to talk with children at some point: we must use deodorant, take a shower, protect themselves and not cut people with knives? Do I need to enter the topic of aggression into the conversation?

- Don't know. Honestly, I am afraid to say that the situation in Ulan-Ude is related to the situation in Perm. It is common for people with an unstable psyche to imitate bright situations. When the child strives to affirm himself in the surrounding world where no one loves him, the idea can come to his mind: oh, you can kill everyone, and then they will notice me. If you start talking with children, it can only provoke them. This is generally dark matter.

- No advice?

- You can investigate what problems adolescents solve in such an aggressive way. And discuss with them alternative ways to solve this need.

- If we are talking about solving all problems and extreme glory, then what are the alternatives here? Here is Mr. Synol , but this is also a rather special alternative. He may be left without hands.

- Maybe this example is better than an example of murder. Less adolescents are prone to forms of self -overlap than to fights. But I don’t know, I just don’t know what to do with it.

- Is this problem? Or is it statistically insignificant, just came to the surface now?

- Extreme forms - to go out and shoot people or come with an ax - this is very rare. But other forms always exist. It is necessary to solve the problems of teenage depression, suicide, drugs. These are all close classes of problems, they need to be comprehensively solved. It makes no sense to solve the ax problem separately.

Ekaterina Kronhaus