After the rebellion, the federals decided to put the "fighting dogs of Putin" in place. The center did not participate in the attack, but he will use - Alexey Venediktov

Marfa Smirnova: Alexey Alekseevich, hello! Glad to welcome you on our air. All week we saw these photos terrible, you were probably also horrified by what you saw. Do you know whether there will be any consequences for the health of Elena Milashina and Alexander Nemova?

Alexey Venediktov: I am not a attending physician. This, of course, is a purely medical story. If we talk about the consequences, we are faced with post -traumatic psychological syndrome, obviously. You see that Lena is very cheerful, waving his hands. Any psychologist, a psychiatrist will tell you that this is a post -traumatic syndrome. It was the main thing for us that they were alive. Then everything is in the hands of the doctors. Actually, therefore, Muratov Dima decided to evacuate them to Moscow, where still the medical level and the possibilities of, say, secondary medicine is higher. It is in order for both Alexander Nemov and Elena Milashina to go into operation.

In general, all this was really terrible. We flew in a very close plane, we sat there half a meter from each other and examined all this, I would say, as through a magnifying glass. In general, I would say it was inconvenient if it is clear what I'm talking about. Here's how to talk with a person when he has such scars in his hands? Or bruises, as you want. The doctors who flew with us, measured the pressure, the heart, very worried that it would be with the intracranial pressure of Lena, whether it could be evacuated by an airplane. There were a lot of medical adventures. Therefore, these are not trifles, despite the fact that she behaves courageously and seems to be not visible. And it is visible.

Marfa Smirnova: Didn’t they evacuate her (more precisely) because it was unsafe to stay first in Grozny, and then, apparently, in Beslan?

Alexey Venediktov: And therefore, too, but also in health too. You probably noticed when Muratov set me the task of ensuring the departure ways, as they say, quickly ... The story is that different medical messages went differently. If the Grozny doctors saw in X -ray pictures that there are fractures in the hand, in the fingers, in the brushes on which it was beaten, then the Beslan doctors considered it insignificant and removed these Langatics from it. And therefore, Muratov says: "We need a third opinion." And we decided that the third opinion is Moscow doctors. That is, it was there, but the issue of security, of course, also stood.

At the same time, the transportation of Alexander and Elena from Grozny to Beslan (110 kilometers along the road) was accompanied by Chechen officials, in particular the Ombudsman for Human Rights. They were taken to Beslan. And at the same time there was a search for opportunities for transportation to Moscow. Everything flickered, I would say. “Come on so. Where is the plane? " - "First in Grozny." “Where am I finding you in Grozny now?” Muratov did not concern - find it and that's it. While I was looking for, in these 15 minutes it was decided that at first the evacuation to Beslan.

Vladimir Romensky: Where did you find the plane?

Alexey Venediktov: In Vnukovo-3.

Vladimir Romensky: Was it some kind of private board?

Alexey Venediktov: Absolutely private company. In fact, I do not know such things. We never flew on such things, the thing is not easy. I made a list of, say, ten rich people who, in principle, could have their plane. Since my phone book, Volodya, you know, is quite fat, I decided to call and ask. And I also had a list of ten Russian corporations, which, too, knew, had planes. If this did not work, it would work.

At the first calling, I received the answer: “You know, Alexei Alekseevich, we never flew, we did not have our own aircraft in our company, but we have a person who provides such services, commercial. He is based in Vnukovo-3. I will give him your phone. If there are problems, return to me, I will try to help. ” I, then, hung up. Five minutes later, the person called me, said that he represents the company that provides services. What he understands, to whom, what and why. "Give the introductory parameters."

I still don’t even know what the company is called, you will laugh. Of course, I read in the Telegram channel, but, on the other hand, why should I? Departure in so many from such and such an airport. Then all the discussions were going on: who should fly, give passports and so on. Therefore, of course, you can find out the name of the company, but for me it is a set of letters. If this person wants, he will say.

Vladimir Romensky: That is, good people helped.

Alexey Venediktov: Yes, good people are actually much more around - and this showed this case - than the evil people. Usually in the air we have evil people who are unhappy with everyone and criticize everything. This is also true. In general, the day began with the fact that after Muratov’s call to me, when I began to move something there, people began to call me who, from the beginning of hostilities and certainly from the beginning of the announcement of me, they didn’t call me, they just died, what is called ... “How to help?” I say: “How to help, how to help ... Write requests to Krasnov and Bastrykin. You can, you are deputies. You can, you are deployed. Find out, help. You can, you are comrades Lieutenant General. Please look for ways. " This is how in the case of Ivan Golunov, to make it clear.

Therefore, yes, kind people. I, Volodya, do not at all belong to this with irony. I still do not know who paid for this flight, which, in general, is not free, because it is a commercial structure. And when I was already in the end, in the sense, before the flight, he asked: "Okay, how much do we owe you?" - I received the answer that everything has already been settled. I say: "In what sense is everything settled?" - “Alexey Alekseevich, I will not talk to you on this topic. There was nothing between you and me. There will be no monetary relationship. ” That's how it all ended. Although it is clear that Muratov and I have already said that we will have to collect money, look for money, donates, maybe somehow. We don’t even know prices.

Marfa Smirnova: Thanks to these people. By the way, about Ivan Golunov. He was paid compensation this week. Some kind of unprecedented generosity of our law enforcement agencies and the judicial system. Do you think that in the case of Milashina there will be something similar? Will the performers be found at least? I'm not talking about customers.

Alexey Venediktov: I do not think that performers will be found. This is still Chechnya, this is still a special zone, let's call it so. Although, on the other hand, everything now depends on Ramzan Kadyrov. He will consider it necessary - they will give out performers or people similar to performers. Will not find necessary - well ...

I remind you that during the murder of Nemtsov, the federals, acting in the territory of Ingushetia, stormed, captured those who were later convicted of murder. And still, Ramzan Kadyrov says that these people are innocent, who were convicted by the Russian court for the murder of Nemtsov.

And here all this happened in Chechnya, that is, in the area of ​​responsibility of Ramzan Kadyrov. At approximately imagining Ramzan Kadyrov, what should happen so that he gave Moscow some 10-12 fighters who acted completely impunity near the airport, which we protect in all possible and impossible ways?

Vladimir Romensky: These fighters are employees of the law enforcement agencies, do you think?

Alexey Venediktov: I did not check their documents, Volodya, but we definitely understand with you that there are two facts that need to be paid attention to. The first fact: these people knew about the arrival, and this is a very early morning-5 in the morning arrived. So, they had access to the list of passengers, that is, to the reservation system, to the so -called "siren". These are only law enforcement agencies. It is unlikely that any bandits who wanted to rob Lena Milashin for 13 thousand rubles would have access to this system.

And the second: everything is there, literally everything around the airport is stuffed with video cameras, stuffed with patrols. Because the airport is always such a vulnerable place ... Ramzan Kadyrov always boasted of safety, that everything is under control, the mosquito will not fly, the bird and the hare will not slip. And suddenly we are told that the cameras accidentally turned off at this time right near the airport! Therefore, it is not clear that ... But this could not be, because, look, if the cameras in the safety zone turn off, then the people who observe in real time behind the camera immediately throw a patrol there: something happened. This was not done.

They were beaten for 8-10 minutes, and no one came to the rescue, not a single police car appeared. And they went back to the hospital on the same taxi on which they arrived-for a second. That is, no patrol appeared. Do you know where the patrolmen came? To the hospital. And they began to look around the room there. They were told: “Wait, we were beaten there, not here. What are you looking for here? "

Well, this is a story. Therefore, I think that, of course, these are not random things, but this is a question for investigators. But I remind you that Bastrykin Alexander Ivanovich entrusted the investigative actions of the investigative apparatus of the Chechen Republic. What do we still do not know about our country, tell me?

Vladimir Romensky: We remember how the cameras turned off when Oyub Titiev, the Chechen human rights activist, for example, was detained with drugs. Also, cameras did not work, although everything was always. Yes, the situation is actually very similar.

Marfa Smirnova: And now Lena and Alexander are under guard? When they will be discharged from the hospital, how will their safety be ensured further?

Alexey Venediktov: We do not comment on security issues.

Vladimir Romensky: You talked about the gray zone, about a special zone - Chechnya. I went there in 2018 to the presidential election. Then Kadyrov personally gave guarantees, and now, nothing happened.

Marfa Smirnova: By the way, I was not allowed once into Chechnya. I mean, the editor -in -chief did not let go.

Vladimir Romensky: Again, evaluating the risks, how was the decision made here? Especially considering that Elena Milashin before that Kadyrov directly called the terrorist.

Alexei Venediktov: So, after the article that she wrote two weeks ago, about why, in fact, the enmity arose at the front between the Kadyrovites and the Wagnerians (in my opinion, this is an article that deserves, if not the Pulitzer Prize, then certainly the Awards of the “Redacle)), she decided, because it was a very objective, suspended article, that she could reach the court, and continue to study this at the same time, and to study it at the same time, and to study it. This does not harm anyone. Well, and at the same time she continued to illuminate the case of Zarema Musaeva.

And she convinced Muratov. I told him in the face that he was mistaken, and told her in the face already on an airplane. Ask me, I would say no. Because, indeed, you are absolutely right, it was not declared some ministers there, but personally by the Kadyrov terrorist. And even if Kadyrov personally did not take part in the organization of this attack, then this announcement - it falls (I know how it works) in certain lists. They see this in the list of passengers: "Oh you, bitch ..."

I see, yes? Since this was not the abolition ... Here is January 2022 - this was the wrong decision, but what to say now? It’s all the same as saying that the woman was raped, because she had a short skirt on her - she was guilty. No, regardless of how this decision was made, this is a crime that must be investigated and punished with the perpetrators up to customers.

Marfa Smirnova: You have already mentioned the deputies to whom you advised writing a request.

Vladimir Romensky: And the deputy minister.

Marfa Smirnova: And the deputy minister. But we, apparently, do not specify, again, names. All the same, there is an opinion that the reaction to this story with Milashina and Nemov is a signal to the fact that the system is changing: reacted, instructed to figure it out, condemned and so on. Do you think the system is changing? And most importantly, in which direction, I do not really understand?

Alexei Venediktov: We can conclude that after the Wagnerian rebellion, the feds decided some independence of these “fighting dogs of Putin” - Prigozhin and Kadyrov ...

Vladimir Romensky: We just discussed this with Martha exactly in the same expressions. I would probably, probably, would be shy on the air like that ...

Alexey Venediktov: I have a bad shy. You know, Volodya, this is not my strong place - to be shy. The story lies in the fact that, probably, it may be, having seen a certain similarity of the situation with private armies (and Kadyrov has almost the Chechen Rosgvardi-this is his private army), they decided to put it a little in place. Maybe. But this became clear only when the presidential spokesman performed.

But I will remind you that before that people who can not be suspected of great love for Novaya Gazeta, for Echo of Moscow, for Rain - people such as deputy Alexander Khinshtein, the head of the Committee on Information Policy, or Alexei Pushkov, the head of the same committee in the Council of the Federation, write Krasnov ... when the famous deputy Evgeny Popov from United Russia and Serge The Communist Party write deputy requests and send telegrams to Bastrykin and the Prosecutor General, respectively, before the statement. When the ministry of numbers (this is the Ministry of Numbers!) Makes a statement in support of Elena Milashina! Ministry! We understand that this is actually Mishustin. This, of course, reminded me of the case of Golunov. This is an innovation. Inside, for various reasons, they do it.

But the system does not change, Martha, I have to upset you. This is their internal reaction. This is their internal nuanced showdowns. “You are more careful, man, more careful! This is our Russian woman. It's you to deal with yours there. ” This is what was shown part of the establishment.

But I can tell you that on my knowledge there are three federal senior officials until 10:30 called Kadyrov. Actually, the decision to evacuate from Chechnya to North Ossetia, to Beslan, where, by the way, Milashin is very well remembered (I think that your viewers also remember the film by Yuri Dudia “Beslan”, where Lena spoke a lot about Beslan) - this was a joint decision. Not Dima Muratov. This was the decision of the federal official (let's call him - Tatyana Moskalkova) and Ramzan Kadyrov. She told him, as far as I know. They agreed so. Naturally, Muratov and the committee against torture supported this and even, perhaps, acted as initiator. But the decision actually - from the Grozny hospital to the Beslan hospital - this was the decision after the call of Tatyana Nikolaevna Moskalkova. This is a fact.

Vladimir Romensky: Inside the system arises, as you say, questions to Kadyrov. But are there any questions within the system to Putin? After all, at first this rebellion, when, obviously, he can no longer keep the whole situation in his hands. Now, it turns out, the other, as you put it, the dog, too, under his jurisdiction, such arbitrariness takes place.

Alexey Venediktov: No, of course. Chechnya has long been not under his jurisdiction.

Vladimir Romensky: I mean that there is Kadyrov, who should obey Putin, but he can do everything he wants. Does Putin control the situation?

Alexey Venediktov: So it was since 2000, from the moment when the senior Kadyrov, and then the younger Kadyrov, was given Chechnya in the Office. I remind you that when, excuse me, the same Zarem Musaev - where did they get it in Nizhny Novgorod? Nobody picked it! Extracted from one region in another in force. Although the Chechen police have no right to the protocol. She can only contact the Nizhny Novgorod police. But we arrived in someone else's region in their regional affairs, took a man, abducted and taken out. And nothing. So there is nothing new here. The question is that ah, this beating Milashina and Nemov will weaken Putin - no, of course.

At the same time, part of the people in Moscow who surround Putin have long been unhappy with Kadyrov’s independence. What do you think that the Minister of Finance is satisfied or the Minister of the Interior? The center did not participate in this matter, but, taking advantage of such an activity in the territory subject to Kadyrov, I decided to threaten Kadyrov with a finger - you, look, guy, we follow you.

That is, these are people who use this, of course, due to Prigozhinsky rebellion. Because one of them broke off the leash and cut the owner. Just in case, let's take the second too. It seems to me that like this. They will take advantage of this case, of course. They do not care deeply on Milashin, on Nemov, on lawyers, on journalists. Spit deeply. These are all the pebbles in the way. How is it? Camp dust ...

Vladimir Romensky: Ice under the feet of the major.

Marfa Smirnova: By the way, not everyone also pays attention to the fact that, it seems to me, an attack on a journalist is something more familiar in Russia, and an attack on a lawyer ... True, the day before was doused with green, again, lawyer Elena Ponomareva, if I am not mistaken. But all the same, I do not recall such a loud case as with the Nemov from the murder of Markelov and Baburova.

Alexei Venediktov: The federal, as it is called, the lawyer’s chamber, which, in general, is quite loyal to Moscow, its head, Volodin, turned (knows to whom to turn to!) To the head of the Vino administration, to Bastrykin and Krasnov. True, yes, this is true, Martha, this is the right remark. I repeat once again that Chechnya is special rules. The authorities understand this. Напомнило дело Голунова мне, потому что Москва под прицелом была всегда, и в деле Голунова, в частности. И Чечня всегда под прицелом подзорной трубы.

И это история, которая будет иметь, конечно, последствия, о которых мы даже не будем знать. Мы некоторые последствия не знаем. Вот мы там рассуждаем про многие перемещения, потерю влияния, но, например, мы не знали довольно долго, что после сдачи Херсона генерал Суровикин — где он, алло? — был отключен от прямой связи президента. Если до этого у него был прямой выход на президента через голову министра, то он был потом отключен. Потеря влияния. В армии это знали. И потом его перемещают с поста командующего на замкомандующего. Мы многое не видим. Мы же Византия, это византийский двор. У нас там все потайные двери, шушуканье, выглядывают из-за угла, отравленное питье, укол иглой — вот это всё.

Владимир Роменский: Но само дело, вы думаете, расследовано так и не будет? Поскольку, я так понимаю, опять же, несмотря на все звонки Вайно, несмотря на запросы к Бастрыкину, всё равно этим вопросом будут заниматься следственные органы именно в самой Чеченской Республике.

Алексей Венедиктов: Вот как раз Федеральная адвокатская палата — не московская, а Федеральная адвокатская палата — просит в конечном итоге Бастрыкина забрать дело в центральный аппарат. Бюрократически это, конечно, очень важно. Сейчас надо, правда, говорить, что это такое преступление, которое должен расследовать, независимо от губернатора, от главы республики, центральный аппарат. Пошагово нужно делать таким образом. Это будет, конечно, оскорбление Кадырова, но посмотрим, что федералы решат.

Тоже знак такой. Знаете, в чем еще история нашего византийского двора? У нас бюрократы разговаривают знаками. Им нужно дать сигналы. В заявлении Дмитрия Пескова ничего такого особенного нет — ну, доложил президенту и доложил. Но если бы он доложил президенту и об этом не сказал, это был бы один знак. А если принято решение о том, что публично заявляется, что «президент в курсе и все поручения даны» (цитата) — это другой знак. Для бюрократии другой знак: а черт, это, значит, всё-таки в Кремле, а не в Грозном. И поэтому возможно, что в результате дело заберут и передадут сюда. Потому что дело-то возбуждено уголовное, о нанесении ущерба здоровью средней тяжести, по-моему… Средней и легкой тяжести. Но есть, как тут правильно напомнили мне, — Калой Ахильгов, адвокат, напомнил, что есть 144-я статья, которая говорит о…

Владимир Роменский: О профессиональной деятельности?

Алексей Венедиктов: Конечно! А она ехала осуществлять профессиональную деятельность.

Владимир Роменский: И Немов.

Алексей Венедиктов: Абсолютно. Смотрите, там про журналистов 144-я статья. Она как потерпевшая может требовать возбудить дело, что ей помешали заниматься... А это уголовка уже, с посадкой, что называется. Это уже, возможно, тюремное заключение для тех, кто препятствовал выполнению. Статья, конечно, «спящая», но сейчас, я так думаю, адвокаты «Новой газеты» и Дмитрия Муратова этим займутся. Я думаю, что и Дмитрий Муратов благодаря своему статусу нобелевского лауреата мира тоже не останется в стороне.

Марфа Смирнова: Вы правильно сказали: были даны сигналы — Песков, Москалькова, Попов и остальные депутаты, Хинштейн и так далее. Но все эти, простите, пропагандистские прихвостни (я не знаю, как их еще иначе назвать) никак не отреагировали. Ни Маргарита Симоньян, ни Скабеева всё равно нисколько не уделили этому времени в эфирах федеральных каналов.

Алексей Венедиктов: Я за ними давно не слежу, честно говоря. А если не отреагировали, то тем более не слежу. Пусть это будет фактом их биографии. Точно не факт биографии Елены Милашиной. Факт несолидарности — это факт биографии тех, кто не солидарен.

Владимир Роменский: Я хотел, наверное, закончить на личном вопросе. Алексей Алексеевич, как вы, как Муратов переживаете подобные ситуации, инциденты, когда такие ужасные вещи происходят с вашими журналистами?

Алексей Венедиктов: Смотрите, для Муратова это вещь — скажу страшную вещь — привычная. «Новая газета» потеряла убитыми шесть человек журналистов. Я с ним разговаривал всю эту дорогу с шести утра. Он корил себя, потому что он дал разрешение и отправил ее в командировку. И это было ужасно. Разговаривать с ним было ужасно всю эту историю до тех пор, пока самолет не взлетел из аэропорта Беслана.

Что касается меня, вы знаете, Володя, я давно уже для себя понял, что есть вещи гораздо важнее, чем эмоционально реагировать. Потому что когда ты реагируешь эмоционально, ты теряешь часть продуктивности в решении вопроса. Никакого геройства не было с нашей стороны с Муратовым. Была поставлена Димой, можно сказать, задача — попросил. Как там? «Когда твой друг в крови, a la guerre comme a la guerre, будь рядом до конца». «Можешь обеспечить отход?» - "Can". И я, абсолютно отключив эмоции, без всяких аханий и оханий... Может быть, злобно... Просто злился.

В общем, меня не удивила эта трагедия, но у меня была задача. Мне нужно было решить задачу, которую решить было невозможно: предоставить возможность в любой момент, когда скажут врачи. At any time. И поэтому я абсолютно холодно, спокойно и жестоко занимался, чем мог. Как начальник штаба, организацией. Может быть, потому что это меня, еще раз повторяю, не удивило. Что мы не знаем про свою страну? Что мы не знаем про Рамзана Кадырова? Что мы не знаем про Чечню? Что мы не знаем про военные действия в Украине, или что там происходит? Ну, что мы не знаем? Значит, у нас остается только одно: когда нужна твоя помощь, ты должен максимально эффективно, а значит, максимально хладнокровно, с максимальным эффектом эту помощь оказать. Приблизительно так. Потому что спас одного человека — хорошо, помог другому человеку — еще хорошо, и так далее.

Разговаривал с Милашиной. Извини, ради бога, это же невозможно! Она говорит: «Я сейчас подлечусь и поеду». There!

Владимир Роменский: Елена Милашина собирается вновь в Чечню?

Алексей Венедиктов: Да. «Я люблю их, это замечательный народ. Из-за каких-то там подонков я их не буду, — говорит она, — бросать». Абсолютно отмороженная на всю голову. И Немов поедет защищать, я уверен в этом. Do you understand? И когда мы опять вернулись к этому, когда мы с Димой Муратовым (извините, он Дима, он мой друг) на эту тему разговаривали, мы просто как бы сплелись в том, что для нас нет в этой истории чеченцев, осетин, русских, московских и так далее. Есть врачи и есть палачи. И всё, на этом надо остановиться. И не надо говорить «чеченцы», не надо говорить «осетины», не надо говорить «москвичи». Надо говорить «врачи», которые есть всюду, и «палачи» в этой истории, которые есть всюду.

И вот Лена говорит: «Вы не знаете чеченцев». Я говорю: «Лена, ну, куда? Ты с ума сошла, ты идиотка?» Она говорит: «Нет. Там незавершенные дела. И потом, из-за меня сейчас весь чеченский народ будут называть убийцами». Понимаешь, что это за человек? Понимаешь, что это за журналист? Вот с чем мы столкнулись.

Я понимаю, что она говорит. Я на такие благородства не способен, но я понимаю, что она говорит, что она делает. И боюсь вам сказать, но она поедет. И мы ее не удержим — ни главный редактор Муратов, ни ее друзья типа меня, и так далее. Не удержим. Потому что она считает себя чуть ли не виноватой, что из-за нее чеченский народ будет выглядеть как варвары. С ума сойти!

Марфа Смирнова: Мне остается только восхищаться ее смелостью. Наверное, по-женски в том числе.

Владимир Роменский: Не только смелостью. Мне кажется, здесь еще восхищения заслуживает именно доброта к этим людям.

Алексей Венедиктов: Да, она такая. И таких людей очень мало. Но она еще очень профессиональная. Я еще раз скажу, что я ее понимаю. Такие случаи — Володя, ты знаешь, и, наверное, Марфа тоже знает, — бывали в каждой редакции. Когда: «Не надо, опасно». — «Я не доделал дело, там меня ждут люди». Она же делает это не ради каких-то там картонных фигур. Она это делает на самом деле ради чеченцев. Она едет туда не ради москвичей — она это делает ради чеченцев. Вот в чем история. И она уверена, что она права. Это к вопросу о профессионализме, Марфа. Это не только доброта, это еще высочайший профессионализм. Это не просто сумасшедшая, которая едет туда, не знаю, возит бутерброды.

Марфа Смирнова: Нет, я говорила про смелость. А смелость — это часть нашей профессии. Я в этом уверена. Спасибо вам большое, Алексей Алексеевич!

Владимир Роменский: Спасибо большое!

Алексей Венедиктов: Счастливо!